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Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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57 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that:)

Why?  What evidence is there that a prince could legitimize a bastard?  And why would he risk angering Dorne in the process?  The guy can't just run around fathering babies with random chicks and poof, you're a Targaryen.  A bastard is a bastard.

And btw, R+L does not equal J.

Jon has the Stark look.

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19 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Why?  What evidence is there that a prince could legitimize a bastard?  And why would he risk angering Dorne in the process?  The guy can't just run around fathering babies with random chicks and poof, you're a Targaryen.  A bastard is a bastard.

And btw, R+L does not equal J.

Jon has the Stark look.

Whose going to stop him if he takes a second wife?  Risk angering Dorne?  He caused a war that got everyone he loved including himself killed and effectively destroyed House Targaryen.  Dorne is beside the point.

Jon looks like a Stark but he has the same grace and quickness as his father, Rhaegar.  

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5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Thank you very much Ygrain you are to kind. You didn't have to go through all that trouble seeing as its in my sig.

But thanks for being a doll....Buh bye, duces;)

Wrong thread for this debate.You asked a question,i answered. You wanted to know what i believe i told you what i believe.Seeing as i have and had no desire to convince anyone this is pointless. The purpose of the Heresy project was have everyone's ideas and theories for posterity.When GRRM finally lets us know who Jon's parents are a Heresy reveal thread will be posted to discuss. 

But i'll do this,( and i am doing it just to show what i mean about how most of you guys reason things, or just make crap up and pass it as fact). I bolded two claims in your statement that "YOU SAID WERE FACTS"

Facts y'uall !!!

1.Prove to me textually .Show me the texts where it states or shows that Lyanna according to you " hated Robert "and "didn't want to marry him."

2. Quantify for me what " of and age" means regarding Jon.

Do these two things for me, and we can have a debate about how there is " no proof that Robert and Lyanna" are Jon's parents.

Can you do that? That fair,if not there is no need to go further.

 

 

Can we agree that Jon knows his own birthday?

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56 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Why?  What evidence is there that a prince could legitimize a bastard?  And why would he risk angering Dorne in the process?  The guy can't just run around fathering babies with random chicks and poof, you're a Targaryen.  A bastard is a bastard.

And btw, R+L does not equal J.

Jon has the Stark look.

From the text, we know that Targaryens have practice polygamy in the past. We also know, based on Tyrion's own experiences, that septons are not always the bastions of piety that they present themselves as.

With that knowledge, it wouldn't be difficult to have one officiate their wedding. That's in the case that it's done in the faith of the seven. The old god's don't need any of that pageantry.

Also, Baelor Breakspear had his mother's looks, as did Duncan Targaryen, and Jon's (supposed) sister Rhaenys, so did Daeron the Drunken and Valarr (Baelor's son)

Looks don't mean anything. If they did, Ned would have no trueborn sons.

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5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

@Jon_Stargaryen

I'm not picking on you,i'm using this as an example in one of your post.This is an example of what i mean in how the clues used in RLJ are reasoned out.

If people are honest, truly honest they will call a spade a spade.

this is what Jon star wrote:

"No. I'm using it as further evidence to bolster my point. The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy to keep one girl hostage is odd, but stranger things have happened in the series. But if you take the theory of R+L=J into account. It makes more sense."

Please,please someone be honest and tell me what is wrong with this? 

 

Nothing.

Give me another reason- that makes sense- that the Kingsguard would be with Lyanna Stark- a woman of no royal birth, with no affiliation to House Targaryen whatsoever.

I don't know too much about the other two, but Arthur Dayne was a man of renowned honor and chivalry (which, as an aside, actually means he's good at jousting and fighting from horseback); a man who, to win the allegiance of those residing in the Kingswood, promised to take their concerns directly to the King; a man who allowed a man who was trying to kill him to rearm, because he wouldn't kill a defenseless man.

Now reconcile that with a man who kidnaps women.

If you take R+L=J out of the equation, what is the reason for their being there?

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3 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Jon has the Stark look.

And? For instance, Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys looked Dornish and were true, bona fide Targaryens. 

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5 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Why?  What evidence is there that a prince could legitimize a bastard?  And why would he risk angering Dorne in the process?  The guy can't just run around fathering babies with random chicks and poof, you're a Targaryen.  A bastard is a bastard.

You're forgetting that there is the polygamy wild card. - Now, this doesn't mean that Rhaegar's second marriage would be happily accepted by everyone, it definitely wouldn't, but it's still better than nothing. It hasn't been done in a while but Rhaegar's whole lineage is derived from a polygamous marriage and already gets a pass for breaking the huge social and religious taboo of incest. He thinks he needs another child, a dragon head - but a bastard is not a dragon (Orys Baratheon didn't count as the fourth dragon head, and similarly, Jon tells us right at the beginning of AGOT that as a bastard, he's not entitled to a direwolf pup). Furthermore, deflowering a highborn maiden and impregnating her with a bastard is a great dishonour for her, and he supposedly loves Lyanna. In this situation, wouldn't it be better to try and play the uncertain wild card, rather than just do nothing? We know that he planned to remove Aerys, and as a king he would have both the power and the popularity to try and push his second marriage to be accepted. It still wouldn't be without problems but it could work, or at least Rhaegar would convince himself it could, and I don't think his closest friends would oppose him in this - which is all we need for the KG, who were bound to follow royal orders and two of the were Rhaegar's friends, to behave as if Jon was legitimate, even if the rest of the realm didn't think so.

5 hours ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

And btw, R+L does not equal J.

Jon has the Stark look.

As others have already pointed out, a marriage of a Targ with a non-Targ doesn't always produce the Targ look. Rhaegar's own daughter inherited Elia's Dornish look. There even seems to be a trend that the firstborn of the pair takes after the mother.

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4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I don't know too much about the other two, but Arthur Dayne was a man of renowned honor and chivalry (which, as an aside, actually means he's good at jousting and fighting from horseback); a man who, to win the allegiance of those residing in the Kingswood, promised to take their concerns directly to the King; a man who allowed a man who was trying to kill him to rearm, because he wouldn't kill a defenseless man.

Nice to see this pointed out.

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting that there is the polygamy wild card. - Now, this doesn't mean that Rhaegar's second marriage would be happily accepted by everyone, it definitely wouldn't, but it's still better than nothing. It hasn't been done in a while but Rhaegar's whole lineage is derived from a polygamous marriage and already gets a pass for breaking the huge social and religious taboo of incest.

Elia's new situattion has to be taken into account. She can no longer have children. Rhaegar is the crown prince, and his line now rests on the shoulders of his infant son. If Aegon dies, then the line passes to Viserys and after him comes Robert. I think Rhaegar could have built a very solid case as to why he should be allowed and must take a second wife. 

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R+L=J must be taken in the context of the LN to come and the prophecies. It would have been much much simpler for Rhaegar to ignore that, and do what was expected of him. Stay with his wife and children, replace his father ASAP. He did what he believed he had to. Forsaking honor, like Jaime who would just have done his duty by letting Aerys burn KL.

I love the books, and R+L=J is "mind blowing".

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Elia's new situattion has to be taken into account. She can no longer have children. Rhaegar is the crown prince, and his line now rests on the shoulders of his infant son. If Aegon dies, then the line passes to Viserys and after him comes Robert. I think Rhaegar could have built a very solid case as to why he should be allowed and must take a second wife. 

You're right, of course, I just wanted to keep my post short. Elia's health, as well as stance on the whole issue, would play a huge role. If she was willing to support Rhaegar - whether she was on board with the PTWP prophecy, or Rhaegar somehow sweetened the deal for her, or simply out of goodness of heart, or for whatever reason - then Rhaegar really could have a convincing case, and without losing Dorne. 

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On 3/9/2018 at 3:53 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Thank you very much Ygrain you are to kind. You didn't have to go through all that trouble seeing as its in my sig.

But thanks for being a doll....Buh bye, duces;)

Wrong thread for this debate.You asked a question,i answered. You wanted to know what i believe i told you what i believe.Seeing as i have and had no desire to convince anyone this is pointless. The purpose of the Heresy project was have everyone's ideas and theories for posterity.When GRRM finally lets us know who Jon's parents are a Heresy reveal thread will be posted to discuss. 

But i'll do this,( and i am doing it just to show what i mean about how most of you guys reason things, or just make crap up and pass it as fact). I bolded two claims in your statement that "YOU SAID WERE FACTS"

Facts y'uall !!!

1.Prove to me textually .Show me the texts where it states or shows that Lyanna according to you " hated Robert "and "didn't want to marry him."

2. Quantify for me what " of and age" means regarding Jon.

Do these two things for me, and we can have a debate about how there is " no proof that Robert and Lyanna" are Jon's parents.

Can you do that? That fair,if not there is no need to go further.

Okay, I’m just going to assume (since my previous post- which wasn’t a rhetorical question- wasn’t answered) that Jon can be trusted with regards to the timing of his birth- meaning his nameday.

Now this is going to be based on several exchanges between characters, as well as the thoughts of others. We’ll also be calculating the time it takes to different parties to travel. It’s clear that there is no mention of either being fifteen before the parties leave Winterfell.

For starters, we’ll glean Jon’s birthday from his chapter, along with Tyrion’s chapter while on the road with him:

Quote

 

Tyrion Lannister knew the maps as well as anyone, but a fortnight on the wild track that passed for the kingsroad up here had brought home the lesson that the map was one thing and the land quite another.

They had left Winterfell on the same day as the king, amidst all the commotion of the royal departure, {…..} Three days ride from Winterfell, however, the farmland gave way to dense wood, and the kingsroad grew lonely. The flint hills rose higher and wilder with each passing mile, until by the fifth day they had turned into mountains, cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders. When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 13, Tyrion 

 

Quote

 

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest{.........}“He said he’d be back by my name day,” he admitted. His name day had come and gone, unremarked, a fortnight past. 

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 19, Jon

 

From these excerpts, we know several things:

  • At least two weeks (19 days, if the bold portions are to be taken to mean different portions of the road) had passed between Jon’s party leaving Winterfell and making it to the Wall (note that they hadn't made it yet).
  • Benjen, Jon & Co. had been there for at least half a week before Benjen left to find Waymar Royce.
  • Benjen believed he would be able to make it back on time, despite the vastness of the North, and the distance he might need to travel (you can say it was less than a week, but given how worried everyone seems in this chapter, it is likely more).

So- with the most conservative estimate- Jon turned fifteen three weeks after leaving Winterfell. I say conservative because this is the same chapter where Jon got word of Bran waking up (which Ned and Co. got after a few days in King's Landing), which leads me to believe that this all happened sometime later.

Unfortunately, none of this means anything with regards to Robb's date of birth.

Here is the first mention (that I've found. Someone tell me if there's an earlier mention) of Robb being fifteen.

Quote

“I’m eight now!” Bran said. “Eight isn’t so much younger than fifteen, and I’m the heir to Winterfell, after you.”
“So you are.” Robb sounded sad, and even a little scared. “Bran, I need to tell you something. There was a bird last night. From King’s Landing. Maester Luwin woke me.”
Bran felt a sudden dread. Dark wings, dark words, Old Nan always said, and of late the messenger ravens had been proving the truth of the proverb. When Robb wrote to the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, the bird that came back brought word that Uncle Benjen was still missing. Then a message had arrived from the Eyrie, from Mother, but that had not been good news either. She did not say when she meant to return, only that she had taken the Imp as prisoner. Bran had sort of liked the little man, yet the name Lannister sent cold fingers creeping up his spine. There was something about the Lannisters, something he ought to remember, but when he tried to think what, he felt dizzy and his stomach clenched hard as a stone. Robb spent most of that day locked behind closed doors with Maester Luwin, Theon Greyjoy, and Hallis Mollen. Afterward, riders were sent out on fast horses, carrying Robb’s commands throughout the north. Bran heard talk of Moat Cailin, the ancient stronghold the First Men had built at the top of the Neck. No one ever told him what was happening, yet he knew it was not good.
And now another raven, another message. Bran clung to hope. “Was the bird from Mother? Is she coming home?”
“The message was from Alyn in King’s Landing. Jory Cassel is dead. And Wyl and Heward as well. Murdered by the Kingslayer.” Robb lifted his face to the snow, and the flakes melted on his cheeks. “May the gods give them rest.”
A Game of Thrones, Chapter 37, Bran

This let's us that this ride happened immediately after they received a raven from Alyn, who took over after Jory's death. Since there's no mention of Ned waking up, it was likely sent out within a couple of days of the fight.

So how long was this?

We'll track Ned's movements:

Now, I couldn't find a passage where they gave exact dates for their trek from Winterfell to Moat Cailin but I found a Sansa Chapter:

Quote

 

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 15, Sansa

 

Placing emphasis on the bold parts, I want to stress three things above all else:

  • It took 12 days to get through the Neck, which is nearly is long and much more treacherous than the route from Winterfell to Moat Cailin.
  • Due to the narrow path, they couldn't have moved as quickly as through the rest of the North, given the baggage trains and wagons.
  • It was also noted to be crooked, adding more time to their journey than would be necessary in open country.

If it's fair to you, I'd like to simply double the twelve days to an even twenty-four.Now we get to the next two chapters that deal with time:

Quote


His men had been searching for Arya for four days now, but the queen’s men had been out hunting as well.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 16, Eddard

 

Quote

 

The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher’s boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 20, Eddard

This would put us at roughly six weeks (if the small assumption is allowed for the trek from Winterfell to the Neck).

This is also the chapter in which he finds out that Catelyn is in King's Landing and orders her to return home.

Originally she arrived by ship, beating Ned to King's Landing, but her return is done by road.

She stops at The Inn at the Crossroads with Ser Rodrik (the inn isn't far from Darry, meaning that she would have likely gotten there in the same time as Ned got the King's Landing (faster, if you consider the baggage that Ned's party had to bring). She sleeps there for a night, taking Tyrion captive the next day.

Quote

“We left King’s Landing a fortnight ago,” Catelyn replied, answering the safest of his questions.
A Game of Thrones, Chapter 28, Catelyn

After this, there's basically a race between Yoren and all the other men (including the Lannister men) to get the King's Landing, meaning it would be small parties moving as fast as they can. They would likely make it there before the fortnight that it took Catelyn and Ned (remember, Ned was in a large party with carts, and Catelyn didn't seem to have a real sense of urgency)

Quote

 

“No one sent me, m’lord, saving old Mormont. I’m here to find men for the Wall, and when Robert next holds court, I’ll bend the knee and cry our need, see if the king and his Hand have some scum in the dungeons they’d be well rid of. You might say as Benjen Stark is why we’re talking, though. His blood ran black. Made him my brother as much as yours. It’s for his sake I’m come. Rode hard, I did, near killed my horse the way I drove her, but I left the others well behind.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 32, Arya

 

He nearly killed his mare trying to reach King's Landing before anyone else could (not that it helped much).

Quote

 

“Hand no longer,” Ned told him. “The king and I have quarreled. We shall be returning to Winterfell.”
“I shall begin making arrangements at once, my lord. We will need a fortnight to ready everything for the journey.”
“We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike.” Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.
Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . . and there was the other matter, the business with Catelyn and the dwarf that Yoren had warned him of last night. That would come to light soon, as sure as sunrise, and with the king in such a black fury . . . Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do.

A Game of Thrones, Chapter 33, Eddard

 

This makes it clear that the day after Yoren told him of Catelyn's folly was the same day that he resigned as Hand and was later attacked by Jaime Lannister.

Conclusion:

We know that the raven reached the Wall a forthnight (or less) after his nameday. The same news that would have reached Ned nearly a week after he made it to King's Landing.

We also know that the climate further north- based on Tyrion's accounts- is harsh, which would make flight for a raven difficult, while the flight south would presumably lighten the burden on the raven flying to King's Landing.

At worst, the Raven flying to King's Landing would have made it a few days later. Catelyn's fortnight, added to Yoren's less than a fortnight, on top of the flight of the raven to Winterfell (which arrived the night before they went for their ride), means that Robb's nameday is- at the most- two months after Jon's (and that's being generous).

So ask yourself: could all the things that happened between Harrenhal and Ned's arrival at Riverrun have happened in less than two months?

I think not.

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On 3/9/2018 at 11:27 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I don't see that as logical. Remember how long it took Robb to assemble some of the banners. We would have to operate under the assumption that it took nearly as long for Ned.

 

On 3/9/2018 at 11:27 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Then there is the amount of time it would take to get to the North from the Vale (after the near week it would take for the raven to get there (didn't do that for the Raven to Winterfell, but that would take about a week)). We'll assume- for the sake of expedience- that the thought of handing them over never crossed Jon's mind, so let's say they left immediately and Ned could travel out of the Eyrie; Ned still took a detour to Sweet Sister, according to Lord Godric Borrell (which would have taken nearly, if not more than a week) then- assuming Godric let him go immediately- it would take him another week to reach the North.

 

On 3/9/2018 at 11:27 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

 

Then he has to gather banners and march south. If the banners were gathered beforehand (which I doubt they were), he would have just needed to march south. Depending on the size and composition of the army, it could take anywhere between weeks and months. If there were more foot, like Robb's army, they would take months- even with a forced march (let's remember the size of the Kingsroad in the Neck and that the North hasn't have strength at sea in centuries

The logic of it is really hard to pin down any way you look at it, because GRRM gives us a loose timeline. But I think the biggest thing for your thoughts on the timeline, the whole rebellion is "close to a year" but within that time there is three major births, Robb, Jon, Dany that kind of help pin down and    But I think it's safe to assume Ned's forces assembled much quicker than Robb did. Robb called his banner's not knowing if or when he would march. Ned didn't leave the Vale until after Brandon and Rickard were dead meaning the news reached them, then maybe two weeks or so to cross the Mountains of the Moon, from the Vale to the sisters, another day and night maybe? and as a little as one day from sisters to White Harbor. It's likely that as soon as Jon Arryn refused Aerys, ravens were sent to the Stormlands and the North. I'm also assuming in the letter to Winterfell they informed Benjen that his brother and father are dead and sister is kidnapped. In under three weeks Ned could be back to Winterfell with the majority of forces already assembled and marching within a month of leaving the Vale. And I don't completely know if Ned returned Winterfell at all? is it mentioned in the text or does it say he returned North? Benjen and Rodrick Cassel or Jory's Dad would have been capable to assemble the banners and meet Ned at the causeway???

On 3/9/2018 at 11:27 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Even if everyone is moving at optimal speeds, there's no way that Jon would be less than four/five months older than Robb, which is different from the books interpretation of their ages.

I think we have to assume everyone is moving at optimal speeds at all time only because the rebellion moves so quick and huge armies cross huge distances over the only a 11 to 14 month period. 

If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, he could be anywhere between 1-3 months older than Robb, which everyone can accept but if Ned got Ashara pregnant at Harrenhal, that would make Jon 4-6 months older than Robb, which he could be?  Gilly's Baby could be half a year or more than Aemon Steelsong but Baby Aemon is much more robust than Craster/bastard and is easily switched without drawing to much attention. If Jon was almost a year older than Robb, it would be pretty obvious but a couple of month or half a year, when they were already a couple months old when they were first seen together at Winterfell.  

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35 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

the whole rebellion is "close to a year" but within that time there is three major births, Robb, Jon, Dany that kind of help pin down 

The Rebellion effectively ended with the Sack of KL and lifting the siege of SE (which had been besieged for about a year). Dany's birth is 9 months after the Sack and Jon's birth 8-9 before hers "or thereabouts", so possibly already post-rebellion, as well. 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The Rebellion effectively ended with the Sack of KL and lifting the siege of SE (which had been besieged for about a year). Dany's birth is 9 months after the Sack and Jon's birth 8-9 before hers "or thereabouts", so possibly already post-rebellion, as well. 

Thank you for that.

1 hour ago, House Beaudreau said:

 

 

The logic of it is really hard to pin down any way you look at it, because GRRM gives us a loose timeline. But I think the biggest thing for your thoughts on the timeline, the whole rebellion is "close to a year" but within that time there is three major births, Robb, Jon, Dany that kind of help pin down and    But I think it's safe to assume Ned's forces assembled much quicker than Robb did. Robb called his banner's not knowing if or when he would march. Ned didn't leave the Vale until after Brandon and Rickard were dead meaning the news reached them, then maybe two weeks or so to cross the Mountains of the Moon, from the Vale to the sisters, another day and night maybe? and as a little as one day from sisters to White Harbor. It's likely that as soon as Jon Arryn refused Aerys, ravens were sent to the Stormlands and the North. I'm also assuming in the letter to Winterfell they informed Benjen that his brother and father are dead and sister is kidnapped. In under three weeks Ned could be back to Winterfell with the majority of forces already assembled and marching within a month of leaving the Vale. And I don't completely know if Ned returned Winterfell at all? is it mentioned in the text or does it say he returned North? Benjen and Rodrick Cassel or Jory's Dad would have been capable to assemble the banners and meet Ned at the causeway???

I think we have to assume everyone is moving at optimal speeds at all time only because the rebellion moves so quick and huge armies cross huge distances over the only a 11 to 14 month period. 

If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, he could be anywhere between 1-3 months older than Robb, which everyone can accept but if Ned got Ashara pregnant at Harrenhal, that would make Jon 4-6 months older than Robb, which he could be?  Gilly's Baby could be half a year or more than Aemon Steelsong but Baby Aemon is much more robust than Craster/bastard and is easily switched without drawing to much attention. If Jon was almost a year older than Robb, it would be pretty obvious but a couple of month or half a year, when they were already a couple months old when they were first seen together at Winterfell.  

The North is massive. It would still take time to assemble all of these men. We know the Umbers participated in the war, meaning it would have taken a while for the raven to reach them, then there's the travel time for foot soldiers (It took Benjen and Co. more than 18 days to reach the Wall from Winterfell. That was without armor.) So even if Ned sent the raven immediately from the Vale, we're still looking at a month or more to assemble a contingent that we know were there.

This is assuming there are ravens for each specific castle in the North at the Eyrie.

The rebellion lasted about a year. We'e talking about pre-rebellion events here.

There's another assumption that you make. It doesn't go unnoticed:

Stannis asks about it. He assumed that Mance's was larger, but could have been mistaken. Jon lies to him and Stannis accepts his word, because Jon has spent more time around the babies, so he would know better.

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On 9/3/2018 at 1:43 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Where was he usurping Jon?

Nowhere. But he would have been if Jon was Brandon's legitimate son, which is what I was referring to.

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On 3/8/2018 at 1:54 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

What do you mean? Like what exact situation are you referring to? Not by any means did the Karstarks "come back" after Eddard and Torrhen were killed during the battle in the whispering wood, nor did they do so after Rickard himself was executed. So how exactly did they come back?

 

BTW; Don't take this as a dispute, I'm legit curious as to what exactly you're referring to with the bolded, so I can go back and see how I'd skipped over a part like that.

I don't think you understood my meaning.

The Karstark family is not extinct because they have some great-uncles and branch families.

And by the other meaning, they did come back. The Karstarks have one of the largest intact armies in the North.

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15 hours ago, Geddus said:

Nowhere. But he would have been if Jon was Brandon's legitimate son, which is what I was referring to.

Technically, by seating Robert on the throne (if R+L=J) he was indeed usurping Jon, seating someone else on his throne.

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22 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Technically, by seating Robert on the throne (if R+L=J) he was indeed usurping Jon, seating someone else on his throne.

However you want to slice it, Ned did commit treason for not allowing Jon's right as heir and King of Westeros to be realized, he instead supported the usurper, his friend Robert.  But the gods made sure Ned got the "King's Justice" in the end for this very treason.    

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”
Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.
His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

...

He put a hand on Bran’s shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. “You did well,” Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

--

Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!

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2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Technically, by seating Robert on the throne (if R+L=J) he was indeed usurping Jon, seating someone else on his throne.

Yeah but the usurpation of Jon's right was used by some as an explanation of Ned's silence in the scenario where Jon is supposed to be a trueborn son of Brandon and Ashara, it has nothing to do with RLJ.

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