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Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:45 PM, bent branch said:

Where did you get the idea that most disagree with it? I think that is just the crowd you run around with that disagrees with it. Seriously, most readers have no problem with R+L=J.

My fault , I wasn't claiming every book reader all book readers either hate or disagree with R+L=J . But there is a large block of people that either disagree with R+L=J or hate it and they basically will come from those who read the books .

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2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

My fault , I wasn't claiming every book reader all book readers either hate or disagree with R+L=J . But there is a large block of people that either disagree with R+L=J or hate it and they basically will come from those who read the books .

I suppose we could argue incessantly about what constitutes a large block of people who don't believe in R+L=J. However, I concede that ALL people who hate R+L=J are people who have read the books. I feel confident that people who haven't read the books will have no opinion on the matter.

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7 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

However you want to slice it, Ned did commit treason for not allowing Jon's right as heir and King of Westeros to be realized, he instead supported the usurper, his friend Robert.  But the gods made sure Ned got the "King's Justice" in the end for this very treason.    

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”
Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.
His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

...

He put a hand on Bran’s shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. “You did well,” Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

--

Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!

Jon would undoubledly have pardoned Ned for his "treason".  Those Gods got it all wrong.

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14 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Jon would undoubledly have pardoned Ned for his "treason".  Those Gods got it all wrong.

It's ironic. Had Ned not supported Robert his head would have been on a spike much earlier. Guess he was guilty for fighting for his life. 

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Posted (edited)

I think people used to hate the theory because of what it would mean for Jon's characters: be a classic hero, some kind of King Arthur going up for his legacy. But if you take a deeper look inside his mind, you'll find out he is not that positive and has not a good willing attitude. Jon is a grey character, just like many Martin's characters. 

Edited by JaimeLannister;

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10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Jon would undoubledly have pardoned Ned for his "treason".  Those Gods got it all wrong.

If he was king... but he wasn't at the time.  And those gods were, is, and will be the ones to influence and make sure Jon is king in the end.

 

 

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:22 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Technically, by seating Robert on the throne (if R+L=J) he was indeed usurping Jon, seating someone else on his throne.

Assuming R+L=J? No, he didn't, the Targaryens weren't the ruling dynasty anymore.

Anyway Ned sure as hell didn't hide his nephew for personal gain, which was kinda my point: on the contrary he did the best thing he could to protect him, even at a cost to himself. And by the way, trying to put Jon on the throne would have been idiotic at that point.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2018 at 10:21 PM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Can we agree that Jon knows his own birthday?

We can agree that Jon "thinks" he knows his own birthday. His birthday is what the authority figures around him says it is. Though, imo ample clues have been left in the text to question Jon's age.

On 3/9/2018 at 10:59 PM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Nothing.

Give me another reason- that makes sense- that the Kingsguard would be with Lyanna Stark- a woman of no royal birth, with no affiliation to House Targaryen whatsoever.

I don't know too much about the other two, but Arthur Dayne was a man of renowned honor and chivalry (which, as an aside, actually means he's good at jousting and fighting from horseback); a man who, to win the allegiance of those residing in the Kingswood, promised to take their concerns directly to the King; a man who allowed a man who was trying to kill him to rearm, because he wouldn't kill a defenseless man.

Now reconcile that with a man who kidnaps women.

If you take R+L=J out of the equation, what is the reason for their being there?

You are doing two things here and both are problematic.

1. You are assuming that the KGs presence there is important and relates to Jon.

2. You are assuming it could only relate to Jon.

3. You are then by your bolded beginning with a conclusion to prove your point.

So I cannot give you an answer based on the parameters you set.

On 3/10/2018 at 11:11 PM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Okay, I’m just going to assume (since my previous post- which wasn’t a rhetorical question- wasn’t answered) that Jon can be trusted with regards to the timing of his birth- meaning his nameday.

Now this is going to be based on several exchanges between characters, as well as the thoughts of others. We’ll also be calculating the time it takes to different parties to travel. It’s clear that there is no mention of either being fifteen before the parties leave Winterfell.

For starters, we’ll glean Jon’s birthday from his chapter, along with Tyrion’s chapter while on the road with him:

From these excerpts, we know several things:

  • At least two weeks (19 days, if the bold portions are to be taken to mean different portions of the road) had passed between Jon’s party leaving Winterfell and making it to the Wall (note that they hadn't made it yet).
  • Benjen, Jon & Co. had been there for at least half a week before Benjen left to find Waymar Royce.
  • Benjen believed he would be able to make it back on time, despite the vastness of the North, and the distance he might need to travel (you can say it was less than a week, but given how worried everyone seems in this chapter, it is likely more).

So- with the most conservative estimate- Jon turned fifteen three weeks after leaving Winterfell. I say conservative because this is the same chapter where Jon got word of Bran waking up (which Ned and Co. got after a few days in King's Landing), which leads me to believe that this all happened sometime later.

Unfortunately, none of this means anything with regards to Robb's date of birth.

Here is the first mention (that I've found. Someone tell me if there's an earlier mention) of Robb being fifteen.

This let's us that this ride happened immediately after they received a raven from Alyn, who took over after Jory's death. Since there's no mention of Ned waking up, it was likely sent out within a couple of days of the fight.

So how long was this?

We'll track Ned's movements:

Now, I couldn't find a passage where they gave exact dates for their trek from Winterfell to Moat Cailin but I found a Sansa Chapter:

Placing emphasis on the bold parts, I want to stress three things above all else:

  • It took 12 days to get through the Neck, which is nearly is long and much more treacherous than the route from Winterfell to Moat Cailin.
  • Due to the narrow path, they couldn't have moved as quickly as through the rest of the North, given the baggage trains and wagons.
  • It was also noted to be crooked, adding more time to their journey than would be necessary in open country.

If it's fair to you, I'd like to simply double the twelve days to an even twenty-four.Now we get to the next two chapters that deal with time:

This would put us at roughly six weeks (if the small assumption is allowed for the trek from Winterfell to the Neck).

This is also the chapter in which he finds out that Catelyn is in King's Landing and orders her to return home.

Originally she arrived by ship, beating Ned to King's Landing, but her return is done by road.

She stops at The Inn at the Crossroads with Ser Rodrik (the inn isn't far from Darry, meaning that she would have likely gotten there in the same time as Ned got the King's Landing (faster, if you consider the baggage that Ned's party had to bring). She sleeps there for a night, taking Tyrion captive the next day.

After this, there's basically a race between Yoren and all the other men (including the Lannister men) to get the King's Landing, meaning it would be small parties moving as fast as they can. They would likely make it there before the fortnight that it took Catelyn and Ned (remember, Ned was in a large party with carts, and Catelyn didn't seem to have a real sense of urgency)

He nearly killed his mare trying to reach King's Landing before anyone else could (not that it helped much).

This makes it clear that the day after Yoren told him of Catelyn's folly was the same day that he resigned as Hand and was later attacked by Jaime Lannister.

Conclusion:

We know that the raven reached the Wall a forthnight (or less) after his nameday. The same news that would have reached Ned nearly a week after he made it to King's Landing.

We also know that the climate further north- based on Tyrion's accounts- is harsh, which would make flight for a raven difficult, while the flight south would presumably lighten the burden on the raven flying to King's Landing.

At worst, the Raven flying to King's Landing would have made it a few days later. Catelyn's fortnight, added to Yoren's less than a fortnight, on top of the flight of the raven to Winterfell (which arrived the night before they went for their ride), means that Robb's nameday is- at the most- two months after Jon's (and that's being generous).

So ask yourself: could all the things that happened between Harrenhal and Ned's arrival at Riverrun have happened in less than two months?

I think not.

I didn't answer because i can't answer something illogical logically.

Again, what Jon can tell us regarding his name day is what he himself was led to believe.Like i said,there is evidence that what he has been led to believe may be wrong.

The answer honestly at least part of it is in your answer.

Why make Jon younger than Robb....Think about the fact that they could lie about when he was born and they did.

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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On 3/10/2018 at 3:12 AM, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting that there is the polygamy wild card. - Now, this doesn't mean that Rhaegar's second marriage would be happily accepted by everyone, it definitely wouldn't, but it's still better than nothing. It hasn't been done in a while but Rhaegar's whole lineage is derived from a polygamous marriage and already gets a pass for breaking the huge social and religious taboo of incest. He thinks he needs another child, a dragon head - but a bastard is not a dragon (Orys Baratheon didn't count as the fourth dragon head, and similarly, Jon tells us right at the beginning of AGOT that as a bastard, he's not entitled to a direwolf pup). Furthermore, deflowering a highborn maiden and impregnating her with a bastard is a great dishonour for her, and he supposedly loves Lyanna. In this situation, wouldn't it be better to try and play the uncertain wild card, rather than just do nothing? We know that he planned to remove Aerys, and as a king he would have both the power and the popularity to try and push his second marriage to be accepted. It still wouldn't be without problems but it could work, or at least Rhaegar would convince himself it could, and I don't think his closest friends would oppose him in this - which is all we need for the KG, who were bound to follow royal orders and two of the were Rhaegar's friends, to behave as if Jon was legitimate, even if the rest of the realm didn't think so.

As others have already pointed out, a marriage of a Targ with a non-Targ doesn't always produce the Targ look. Rhaegar's own daughter inherited Elia's Dornish look. There even seems to be a trend that the firstborn of the pair takes after the mother.

Place holder.

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On 2/13/2018 at 3:54 PM, Paxter Redwyne said:

R+L+J is too mainstream.

I think this is largely why. It's generational. Fifteen years ago R+L=J was cutting edge thinking. Anyone joining the forums now view it as cool as grandpa's old shirt & tie.

The newer members need to put forward new kewl radical theories. All the work has been done on R+L=J, it's like trying to prove pythagoras theorom after two thousand years of scholars working on it.

I remember the first time I read an R+L=J theory and it blew my mind but this was six years and by then it was generally accepted as true (with a few die-hards refusing to buy into it). These days any new to the forums has likely heard about it from friends, youtube, GOT tv series or what ever long before they start reading up on the theories.

This happens to most of the older theories, people come along and take them one step further in weird directions.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2018 at 8:54 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Calm down and stop saying dude all the time, it's like you're getting in character for a Ted and Bill's excellent adventure rerun. 

Whatever,lets stay on topic.

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There is nothing in your post that points to Robert being Jon's father at all.  But you sure went out of your way to make an affort to bolster your argument with the "dude" wildcard.  Never saw it as  strengthening an argument tbh and still don't.  And we got coloured fonts as well, it must be legit......

You never asked why i believe Robert is Jon's father.The two questions i was asked i answered and i said this isn't a place to go into all the reasons why i believe. My thread doesn't even go into all the reasons.

You speak with another's mouth and if other's are using colored fonts why can't i?

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I'm expressing the opinion, having read the books a number of times, that any theory that attempts to argue that Robert is Jon's father is going to be full of gaping holes.  First and most obvious of which, as I already stated, is why Ned raised Jon in secret rather than handing him over to Robert or even allowing Robert  to play the absent father as he did with Mya Stone and Edric Storm.  You may try and construct an explanation for this but it's going to be flimsy.

I already did,and to reiterate it is 100% better whether than your reasoning which is have Jon be Targ first and then fit everything else in.this is what RLJ is.

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The self inflated egotism doesn't come from me.

What you would do is neither here nor there.  Ned and Robert are close friends who fall out over the murder of the Targaryen children but are reconciled by Lyanna's death.  For Ned to take Robert's son and conceal him is both unforgivable and unnecessary.  The only danger Ned needs to protect Jon from is Robert's fury towards dragonspawn not his own numerous bastards.

Not unneccessary,but i agree it would be hard to forgive.Ding ding ding.Well look at that.

What are you talking about? Robert is not a danger to his bastards.Where ever are you getting that?

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He has seen Mya Stone in the Vale and the Vale is where she remains.  Edric Storm is in due course raised at Storm's End.  Ned has absolutley no reason to fear giving robert his own son in case he takes him to court and places him in an unhappy place (and arguably Jon is unhappier because of Catelyn's coldness towards him in any case).  Ned will make this reasoning simply enough before deciding to betray his friend and damage his relationship with his own wife.  And over the thought his nephew might not be happy with the decisions his own father makes about raising him?  It's not for Ned to take it upon himself to intervene with other people's children!

 

Again where are you getting this notion that Robert is a danger to his kids? I never said that.What you think Ned might do is irrelevant.Ned already has told you what he thinks regarding life an court for bastards and one of the reasons why Jon wasn't going to go.You don't have to like it,but it is what Ned believes.

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Well this is as muddled as everything you have said in this thread.  The danger at court is of course an empty argument as none of Robert's bastards are taken to court and Ned has no reason to believe Jon will be.  Robert's bastards are equally obviously safe as long as he lives and therefore for Ned to want to protect Jon by hiding him from Robert means either he is protecting him from Robert (he's not) or he is so unbelievably pessimistic as to be guarding against the day when Robert dies and someone tries to kill all his bastards.  Now in the latter case asking Robert's permission to raise him at WF on his friend's behalf agasint the threat of Doomsday would makes sense, but not telling Robert at all and lying all his life is out of character and plain poor reasoning.

My point wasn't muddled you are just being dishonest. Post all text provided and not just some to get context.

Ned provides the reasons why Robert's bastards aren't at court.....He flat out notices through the years and states they aren't there because of Cersie.What part of that aren't you getting?

The look Ned gave her was anguished. 1."You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."
Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."2. And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that.
 
The above is two reasons why Ned says Jon isn't going to court and why Robert's bastards aren't welcomed. You can't get anymore clearer than Ned telling you "whys"
 
The writer has given us several texts that shows Cersie to be a past and present threat to all Robert bastards.
 
Soooooo Ned lying when the arguement is for  RLJ is in character??? Ok i gotcha.
 
Let me give you a text to that reply about Ned lying to Robert being out of character and poor reasoning.
 
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"Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the wordsI lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you(Eddard,AGOT).

So what were you saying with that?

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Your last paragraph here is a little incoherent.  You are expressly mocking this theory and claiming it is an an invention spawned by the Hivemind's need to find some kind of evidence for R+L=J yet what you offer in it's place it the idea that Ned was protecting Jon from his own father.  And he did this all his life in secret.  And he never once thinks of this because?  But he doesn't hide Jon from his own father when Robert turns up at WF?  Does Jon look like a Barratheon or have the build like Gendry or the coal black hair?  Your argument is flimsy yet you mock the one which holds together much better.   I'm sorry but I hope you didn't depend too long on this argument!

Ummmm if he thinks of Jon being rober'ts  that would be giving it away duhhhh!!!

Actually Jon is hidden when Robert turns up at WF. Though Jon assumes Cat is the reason.

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"Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?"

"Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them."

 

Actually he was on the opposite side of the hall in the back.

I would like you to read all the descriptions of Robert's children,down to Mya in the Vale. Their black hair or blue eyes isn't the least of what is said about them. Then compare what you find to what is unusuall about Jon.

To quote Syrio: " You look without the seeing.

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Potash? :D har-de-har.  I would rather be potash than whatever is leaking out of your distended cranium!  What evidence?  I've yet to see you post anything of the sort......

I didn't say "you" are potash i said arguements are. I don't attack people as you are now.

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As to the rest of your post....

Of course, the old it's obvious so I'll look for another answer but insist its not because "it's too obvious" line of reasoning (the one that you don't believe you do...).  I mean the pattern was so blatant that it screamed red herring at you but it's not because this was too obvious for you that you came to the conclusion that Robert was Jon's father......

I am very certain i didn't misrepresent what i said. you are just choosing not to quote it in context which is not incoherent. 

I take GRRM at his word. i take his previous works into consideration and i take his wife's opnion more than yours.

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I don't have a facepalm emoji either but this one is fitting! :bang:

Ok dude, so you really believe it.  In that case I suggest you get your daily newsfeed from Infowars, you will probably find it right up your street!

Again, now you are just being insulting and we have nothing more to say. I haven't attacked you personally or anyone.Let's leave this at that.

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And you finally said something sensible.  Jon's parentage is not the most important thing in the story, nor even for Jon as a character and he will fulfill his arc - whatever that might be - because of who he is and how he was raised, not who his parents really were.  As many others have said it's not whether R+L=J or the hidden prince trope existing that is "too obvious" to appeal to GRRM's mind or find a place in his writing as what he does with it or how he deconstructs it that we should be interested in.  If you reject R+L=J because you found a better answer fair enough (though you have yet to show it) but if you reject it because it's too Disney or too obvious and because you are projecting roles or predicting outcomes that you think are too sacharine based on it then you (or people in general) are probably making a big mistake based on how GRRM writes.

I reject it because it failed to reach GRRM's standard. 

I was asked two questions.

Who i believe his parents are? And Why Ned didn't give Jon to Robert.

The answers i gave to those two questions despite your dishonesty was wayyyy better and more textual than the reason given by RLJ and you.

It doesn't require belief that  Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents beforehand.It doesn't need the conclusion to lead you to the conclusion.

It is taking Ned at his word,exactly what he says and seeing exactly what he thinks and why. 

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The strength of a theory is not based on it's popularity alone, people being capable of being fickle or mischievous or credulous, but the more people who are persauded by a theory's arguments the stronger it appears.

So, e.g. the number of people who believe R+L=J as compared to the number of people who believe Robert is Jon's father does seem indicative to me of the strength - and here I mean coherence, consistency and plausibility based on textual clues - of the two theories.

That's the way it works here on Planet Earth.  Wherever you are from I can't say but maybe you really think it is flat.  Don't fall off now!

Nope.  Why do you think it's called a red herring? You do realise it's because a red herring stands out and is meant to draw your attention so that the real culprit / *insert x based on mystery* slips by unnoticed.  You do realise this because you even quote the meaning....A red herring that fails to be noticed by part of the readership - and quite a large part of it, maybe even a large majority of it - simply doesn't work.

Wylla and Ashara are the red herrings for R+L (or L to be more precise) just as Tyrion and Jaime/Cersei are the red herrings for the catspaw assassination attempt (Joffrey) and Cersei and Hugh of the Vale are the red herrings for the murder of Jon Arryn (Lysa).  The red herrings draw the eye and are considered by characters in story to be the culprits but red herrings is what they are.  R+L are not set up as red herrings, they are the answer you have to reach for yourself...with or without an internet forum.

The old too obvious argument again.  Sigh.  :bang:

it's not whether R+L=J is a thing but what he does with it in story - if anything except for Jon to reject it and consider Ned and his siblings his true family! - that will determine if anything is too obvious. For my money it won't be and all these edgelords assuming they know what GRRM won't write will find they were fighting the wrong battles by the time the story's told.....

Right....The very thing I told you at the outset I wasn't interested in debating given it's as entrenched as the Western Front.  I'm not even particularly interested in your thought process behind accepting then rejecting it.  What is entertaining and a little bit worrying is the extent to which your arguments align very neatly with the idea that "it's too obvious" (and there is a whole bunch of arguments in that little bundle) and the degree to which you flat out denied this while continuing to explain why it is too obvious!!  If only you understood that we would not even be talking.......

I respect your right to think Robert is Jon's father.  Or Mance.  Or Aerys.  Or Ossifer Plumm of the improbably tailored suit.  I don't care :dunno:

To put this "it obvious debate to rest." Do you think GRRM's nana could have figured RLJ out? 

You take Paris's statement into consideration? Do you take GRRM's word and his other works into consideration? If you are honestly answer those questions then you should have no gripe about me saying( based on all these,how i solved this so call mistery) that IMO,its obvious.

If you don't care then why agree to be second party in a conversation? 

Also, how exactly am i mocking RLJ believers? So what, RLJers can call other posters theories crackpots and worse.make statements "about posters" and that's ok.However, the moment someone calls it obvious or a red herring you all get butt hurt? Come on man be fair.

Read the definition of what makes a red herring a red herring.

Edited by wolfmaid7

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I mean, I don't hate it, but I will shrug when I read it because there's been like 50 threads on this very subject on this forum, graduating one to the next, the only longer one being Heresy. So, ya, been there done that is more of the reaction I see, and what I fee.

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The red herrings are:  Ashara, Wylla, and the woman from the Sisters....all people that the characters think might be Jon's mother.  Everything else is pure crackpot.  IMO

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On 3/11/2018 at 3:37 AM, Jon_Stargaryen said:

The North is massive. It would still take time to assemble all of these men. We know the Umbers participated in the war, meaning it would have taken a while for the raven to reach them, then there's the travel time for foot soldiers (It took Benjen and Co. more than 18 days to reach the Wall from Winterfell. That was without armor.) So even if Ned sent the raven immediately from the Vale, we're still looking at a month or more to assemble a contingent that we know were there.

The North is Massive, even if we assume that only White Harbor and Winterfell received letters from the Vale, Winterfell would have been calling banners upon receiving the news. Benjen and Jon traveling to the wall is a longer distance than virtually every castle is to Winterfell. Many Bannermen would have arrived in Winterfell before Ned, and most of the rest would have probably showed up shorty thereafter, and some lords south of Winterfell might not have come all the way to Winterfell but stayed put and joined Ned on the March south. 

My assumption for Neds haste is because I believe in GOT Cat states that her and Ned were wed on the same day that her an Brandon were supposed to be married, shortly after the tourney at Harrenhal. This would mean that Ned would have left the Vale, to Winterfell called banners, traveled south, fought at Stone Sept, gone to Riverrun and Married Cat and impregnated her, thats a tight timeline. 

  My point is though, Ashara being impregnated at Harrenhal, or Lyanna being Impregnated sometime after by Rhaegar, Either one fits because Ned went to Dorne anyway and came back with a baby some amount of months  older or younger than Robb.  

     

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

The North is Massive, even if we assume that only White Harbor and Winterfell received letters from the Vale, Winterfell would have been calling banners upon receiving the news. Benjen and Jon traveling to the wall is a longer distance than virtually every castle is to Winterfell. Many Bannermen would have arrived in Winterfell before Ned, and most of the rest would have probably showed up shorty thereafter, and some lords south of Winterfell might not have come all the way to Winterfell but stayed put and joined Ned on the March south. 

My assumption for Neds haste is because I believe in GOT Cat states that her and Ned were wed on the same day that her an Brandon were supposed to be married, shortly after the tourney at Harrenhal. This would mean that Ned would have left the Vale, to Winterfell called banners, traveled south, fought at Stone Sept, gone to Riverrun and Married Cat and impregnated her, thats a tight timeline. 

  My point is though, Ashara being impregnated at Harrenhal, or Lyanna being Impregnated sometime after by Rhaegar, Either one fits because Ned went to Dorne anyway and came back with a baby some amount of months  older or younger than Robb.  

     

A question, where does it say in the text by reliable sources who would know that Ned brought a baby back from Dorne?

Didn't Cat say when she arrived at WF Jon and his wetnurse were already settled in?

So Ned traveled all the way from Dorne with his sister's remains,a wetnurse,Howland, dropped off Barbery's horse and no one at any point sees him traveling with a woman and a baby?

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 Do you think GRRM's nana could have figured RLJ out? 

You take Paris's statement into consideration? Do you take GRRM's word and his other works into consideration? If you are honestly answer those questions then you should have no gripe about me saying( based on all these,how i solved this so call mistery) that IMO,its obvious.

Wait… are you saying that one needs to know things about the author's wife, and must have knowledge of his previous works to be able to solve the "mysteries" in ASOIAF (at least Jon's parentage)?

 

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40 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Wait… are you saying that one needs to know things about the author's wife, and must have knowledge of his previous works to be able to solve the "mysteries" in ASOIAF (at least Jon's parentage)?

 

No I am not.....That was clearly not the context.

She said her husband doesn't do obvious.Nowhere did I say you have know about her.How is that suppose to help?I said don't dismiss her statements nor GRRM.

As to taking into consideration  his other works.That is helpful in seeing his  style and use if various devices.

This comment about the writer's style is not an oddity.Go on RLJ and you will see several statements regarding his style and the like.

The reason why some people say its obvious is because they have points of reference.

I'm not the first to say such a thing.So why sound so shock?

 

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15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I already did,and to reiterate it is 100% better whether than your reasoning which is have Jon be Targ first and then fit everything else in.this is what RLJ is.

Except that is not what anyone is doing.  Let's leave aside for a minute the impossibility of any theory being 100% better than another, let alone the implausibility of Ned hiding Jon from his own father being a 100% or even 99% :drunk: better thoery than hiding Rhaegar's child from Robert :huh:.  Over the years people have pieced together the clues and come to the conclusion that the best explanation that some or all these clues lead to, and which all the odd details about Ned's behaviour and thoughts and the ToJ, is that R+L=J.  You may have taken a quite different path by spotting a pattern or a trope that led you to an instinctive realisation and recognition that R+L=J that you then questioned and rejected but that is you.  Other people did not have the same thought process and follow the cart before horse path that you are blanket assuming and stating is the case.  You simply can't make an assertion like that on other people's behalf, it's demonstrably false based on this and countless threads over the years.  You think differently and that's ok but understand that your revelations and thought process are yours alone.

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What are you talking about? Robert is not a danger to his bastards.Where ever are you getting that?

Again where are you getting this notion that Robert is a danger to his kids?

From attempting to understand your argument that Ned not only assumed responsibility from raising Jon but kept his existence secret from his father.  After the ToJ there is no reason not to expect Ned to hand Robert's son over to him and instead keep him secret but every reason to expect him not to keep Rhaegar's child secret.  I still don't follow if you really think Lyanna made Ned promise to keep Jon secret from Robert and to raise him at WF or if Ned did this himself because he (or Lyanna as well) was terrified that Jon might be "taken to court".  The threat to Jon is from having Rhaegar as his father, Robert would be perfectly capable of keeping him as safe as Edric Storm and there is simply no reason for Ned not to offer to raise Jon at WF which solves all these problems.  Quite simply, protecting Jon in this way only stacks up if his identity needs to be kept secret from Robert (i.e. he is Rhaegar's son not Robert's). 

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ned already has told you what he thinks regarding life an court for bastards and one of the reasons why Jon wasn't going to go.You don't have to like it,but it is what Ned believes.

My point wasn't muddled you are just being dishonest. Post all text provided and not just some to get context.

Ned provides the reasons why Robert's bastards aren't at court.....He flat out notices through the years and states they aren't there because of Cersie.What part of that aren't you getting?

The look Ned gave her was anguished. 1."You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."
Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."2. And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that.
 
The above is two reasons why Ned says Jon isn't going to court and why Robert's bastards aren't welcomed. You can't get anymore clearer than Ned telling you "whys"
 
The writer has given us several texts that shows Cersie to be a past and present threat to all Robert bastards.

Subsequent reasoning that Cersei was a threat to Robert's bastards after his death is years after the fact and unlikely to preoccupy Ned or Lyanna at the time of "promise me Ned" (did they spare Cersei a thought?) and also overlooks that the bastards Cersei hunts down are commoners at KL.  She does not demand the head of Edric Storm and it would have sparked another civil war to demand the head of Jon Snow (a Snow but also a Barratheon and a Stark).  If Jon's real parents were Robert and Lyanna announcing this and raising him at WF under the watchful eye of Uncle Ned, Warden of the North, makes him the safest bastard in the 7K.

Also, consider that Ned's protestations about taking a bastard to Court are really a smokescreen not to have the child he has hidden away for 15 years paraded around infront of Varys et al to have everyone start prying into who his mother was.  He has no intention of taking Jon to court and only protests this when Catelyn makes it clear she won't have Jon at WF when Ned leaves.  Something that isn't even an issue if he ever tells her Jon is Robert's son!

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:
Soooooo Ned lying when the arguement is for  RLJ is in character??? Ok i gotcha.
 
Let me give you a text to that reply about Ned lying to Robert being out of character and poor reasoning.

Ned lying to Robert to hide the truth of Jon's parentage and protect Jon from Robert's fury towards Dragonspawn is good reasoning and in character.  Ned lying to Robert (by omission) on his deathbed by writing "my heirs" rather than "my son, Joffrey" and feeling shitty about lying to spare his dying friend a horrible truth is good reasoning and in character.  Ned going to KL to uncover the truth of Jon Arryn's death and to protect Robert from his enemies - the Lannisters - and regreting on his friend's deathbed that he failed him is totally in character.  Ned taking Robert's son out of the cradle and keeping his identity secret from his father (and Ned's best friend) all his life because he does not trust his friend to keep his own son and Ned's nephew safe is out of character and poor reasoning.  Offer to raise him at WF and all the problems are solved in one go without a lifetime of lies and regrets.

Your thinking and expression of what you mean has struck me as muddled (insconsistent, unclear, contradictory) a few times.  I'm not really bothered if you think that is a barbed comment and you can disagree as vehemently as you want but it's not for you to say my opinion of your argument and clarity of expression is dishonest.

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ummmm if he thinks of Jon being rober'ts  that would be giving it away duhhhh!!!

Let's not be silly.  There are more subtle ways to show how a pov character is uncomfortable or concerned about something.  A lot of Ned's thought about Jon, Lyanna and Rhaegar for example.  There is an absence of such in his povs at WF.

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I didn't say "you" are potash i said arguements are. I don't attack people as you are now.

This sums this whole conversation up to a T.  You either don't understand what you are saying or forget and claim you said something else (part of the reason we are going round in circles and I find what you say muddled).  What you said:

On 09/03/2018 at 9:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

You then now make potash of yourself by claiming there is no evidence that Robert is Jon's father which is your opinion.

As usual for this conversation I quote you but you indignanlty claim you said no such thing (it's there in black and white :dunno:) or that you meant something else.  If you don't see the problem here you should take a step back and think about it for a while.

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again, now you are just being insulting and we have nothing more to say. I haven't attacked you personally or anyone.Let's leave this at that.

I replied in kind.  I fully acknowledge that it wasn't the friendliest response.  Do you see how a response of Infowars to one of thinking the earth is flat is a response in kind not some gratuitous personal attack?

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The answers i gave to those two questions despite your dishonesty was wayyyy better and more textual than the reason given by RLJ and you.

Two accusations of dishonesty from someone who is claiming not to indulge in personal attacks.  Most excellent reasoning.

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I take GRRM at his word. i take his previous works into consideration and i take his wife's opnion more than yours.

I reject it because it failed to reach GRRM's standard.

To put this "it obvious debate to rest." Do you think GRRM's nana could have figured RLJ out? 

You take Paris's statement into consideration? Do you take GRRM's word and his other works into consideration? If you are honestly answer those questions then you should have no gripe about me saying( based on all these,how i solved this so call mistery) that IMO,its obvious.

These are all part and parcel of the arguments that R+L=J is too obvious.  You must see this.  It is a fundamental part of your reasoning for rejecting it and seeking a different explanation.  As there is not a particularly good one you are forced into Robert being the father, not because is has strong textual support but because, once you rule our R+L=J, you are left with the scraps and this is the best alternative that can be cobbled together.  Others say Bandon and Ahsara, others say Aerys, others say Mance. None of them make a great deal of sense or are more convincing (or 100% better) than R+L=J.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

If you don't care then why agree to be second party in a conversation?

Because you keep relying. And your replies keep saying you didn't say what you did and therefore my points are wrong.  Or that basic stuff means something different.  That invites a reponse.  I don't care if you think Spare Boot is Jon's father.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Read the definition of what makes a red herring a red herring.

Stuff like this.  Wylla, Ashara and even the briefly mentioned fisherman's daughter are red herrings.  Lyanna isn't ever considered by anyone in story or by a lot of the readership.  You have to get to Lyanna before you get to Rhaegar.  Or Robert :shocked:.

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3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Except that is not what anyone is doing.  Let's leave aside for a minute the impossibility of any theory being 100% better than another, let alone the implausibility of Ned hiding Jon from his own father being a 100% or even 99% :drunk: better thoery than hiding Rhaegar's child from Robert :huh:Over the years people have pieced together the clues and come to the conclusion that the best explanation that some or all these clues lead to, and which all the odd details about Ned's behaviour and thoughts and the ToJ, is that R+L=J.  You may have taken a quite different path by spotting a pattern or a trope that led you to an instinctive realisation and recognition that R+L=J that you then questioned and rejected but that is you.  Other people did not have the same thought process and follow the cart before horse path that you are blanket assuming and stating is the case.  You simply can't make an assertion like that on other people's behalf, it's demonstrably false based on this and countless threads over the years.  You think differently and that's ok but understand that your revelations and thought process are yours alone.

I don't hate RLJ but I don't subscribe to the 'clue' that Lyanna was ever at the ToJ because of Ned's dream.  I don't think it is the 'best' explanation.  I don't think anyone has clearly understood the meaning and symbolism of that dream.  I think it more likely that Lyanna was at Starfall and the KG chose the ToJ as a meeting place for their final confrontation in the war.  I don't think they were hanging out there for any length of time with orders from Rhaegar to guard his prize.  What seems obvious to some, seems unlikely to me. 

 

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