Jump to content
manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

Recommended Posts

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't hate RLJ but I don't subscribe to the 'clue' that Lyanna was ever at the ToJ because of Ned's dream.  I don't think it is the 'best' explanation.  I don't think anyone has clearly understood the meaning and symbolism of that dream.  I think it more likely that Lyanna was at Starfall and the KG chose the ToJ as a meeting place for their final confrontation in the war.  I don't think they were hanging out there for any length of time with orders from Rhaegar to guard his prize.  What seems obvious to some, seems unlikely to me. 

 

Each to their own.  As to the bolded I'm not sure why they would choose to do that rather than seek out Viserys and a pregnant Rhaella.  That seems an arbitrary and unexplained decision to me.  The fact that Rhaegar left the KG behind when he "returned from the south" to lead the fight against the Robellion begs the question what he found for them to do that he considered so important.  Ned's whole fever dream where he rebukes them for not going to Viserys to do their duty and to which they answer they are doing their duty (and implying more so than Willem Darry) begs the question what duty they are performing and are prepared to die to carry out.  Guarding a prize seems a poor reason.  Guarding the Crown Prince's child and, after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaenys, their king seems a very good one.  I've yet to hear a better.

I'm not saying anything hat hasn't been said a thousand times and if you don't find it convincing fair enough.  Everyone has their own idea of "best".  I am specifically replying to a post that generalises how a number of people who believe R+L=J reached that conclusion by pointing out how they have explained their reasoning to be different to what has been attributed to them.  As you are not one of those people the reasoning does not apply to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

 Guarding the Crown Prince's child and, after the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaenys, their king seems a very good one. 

There are problems with that idea. First after the death of Rhaegar Viserys became the crown prince and not Aegon. Second there is no connection between whatever they do or guard or Jon. We do not know where Jon was before he was in Winterfell. 

Quote

I'm not saying anything hat hasn't been said a thousand times and if you don't find it convincing fair enough.  Everyone has their own idea of "best".

The same arguments against it are ignored over and over again. Why would Cersei want to kill Jon if he was Rhaegar's son ? Cersei has a crush on everything Rhaegar and even appoints the Rhaegar clone Aurane Waters to the small council.

edit: To make that even more clear. When GRRM writes about inheritance he writes about political issues. Dorne was unwilling to do Aerys bidding during the rebellion and only did it because Elia was a hostage. We have a political split between Dorne and Targaryen. That is there. And it is perfectly right to assume Dorne would press their own claimant over Viserys. (at least when it comes to GRRM interviews). What makes no sense in the ToJ is a claimant that isn't dornish. Ashara and Rhaegar work fine. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not really dornish. 

 

edit2: With Elia and her children hostage Dorne needs another heir from Rhaegar. It makes perfect sense to produce one to get a claim without love. For political reasons. Not because we have a love story. 

edit3: I can accept Rhaegar and Lyanna as a last dornish attempt in a failing war when Rhaegar left no dornish heirs. But that is not the story RLJ tells us. 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

There are problems with that idea. First after the death of Rhaegar Viserys became the crown prince and not Aegon. Second there is no connection between whatever they do or guard or Jon. We do not know where Jon was before he was in Winterfell.

I'm not sure I follow.  After Rhaegar's death his eldest son, Aegon, becomes Crown Prince unless he is specifcally removed from the succession.  If you mean Rhaegar was removed from the succession in favour of Viserys and so all his heirs are too this seems unlikley.  Aerys and Rhaegar had differences which seemed to be resolved by Rhaegar's return from the south at Aerys's request.  In any case Aegon is dead so from the pov of view of Dayne, Hightower and Whent the choice of how to fulfil their duty boils down to Viserys (and a pregnant Rhaella) or someone more important.  If Viserys is Crown Prince after Rhaegar's death then he is king after Aerys's death yet they don't go to him, they remain in the south before fighting to the death in an obscure duty-filled contest with Ned.  They have somewhere more important to be and something more important to do than guard Viserys, the apparent Targaryen heir.  What could this be?  We have clues from Ned about Lyanna that bookend this fight and are present elsewhere in AGOT.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

The same arguments against it are ignored over and over again. Why would Cersei want to kill Jon if he was Rhaegar's son ? Cersei has a crush on everything Rhaegar and even appoints the Rhaegar clone Aurane Waters to the small council.

I'm confused.  Cersei would have no interest in a bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna at all.  Robert would hate with a fury the idea that his beloved Lyanna was reduced to giving birth to Dragonspawn and would want the problem solved in a warhammer-like way.  Cersei wanted Robert's bastards killed because she saw their existence and the public knowledge of Robert's infidelity as an intolerable insult.  She's not shy of duoble standards.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

edit: To make that even more clear. When GRRM writes about inheritance he writes about political issues. Dorne was unwilling to do Aerys bidding during the rebellion and only did it because Elia was a hostage. We have a political split between Dorne and Targaryen. That is there. And it is perfectly right to assume Dorne would press their own claimant over Viserys. (at least when it comes to GRRM interviews). What makes no sense in the ToJ is a claimant that isn't dornish. Ashara and Rhaegar work fine. Rhaegar and Lyanna are not really dornish. 

 

edit2: With Elia and her children hostage Dorne needs another heir from Rhaegar. It makes perfect sense to produce one to get a claim without love. For political reasons. Not because we have a love story. 

edit3: I can accept Rhaegar and Lyanna as a last dornish attempt in a failing war when Rhaegar left no dornish heirs. But that is not the story RLJ tells us. 

If this works for you then fair enough.  But what happens to this child (if there was one)?  There is no reason for Ned to have anything to do with him.  And who does Ned bring home with the Stark looks if Rhaegar and Ashara produced a Dornish Targaryen heir?

Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys are safe and sound in KL.  I can't see a reason Doran would want a Dornish rival from the Daynes to compete with his grandson.  This isn't how succession works, you keep the claim in your family and you keep it tightly controlled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

This isn't how succession works, you keep the claim in your family and you keep it tightly controlled.

That is the entire point. Do your own research regarding the crown prince, regarding the dornish forces and Elia as a hostage and regarding the moment when Cersei wants to kill Jon.

the crown prince is in Dany I - aGoT and in world of Ice and Fire

the dornish forces and how Elia is used as a hostage to get dornish forces is two times in Jaime V - aSos

the Cersei chapter where she wants to kill Jon is in aFfC Cersei IV. The remarkable thing here is that she says this in the face of Aurane Waters who looks like Rhaegar. Go figure. And yes, Robert is dead by this point, so get this out of your head. She wants Jon dead while fantasising about Rhaegar. . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

There are problems with that idea. First after the death of Rhaegar Viserys became the crown prince and not Aegon.

That would require 1) Aerys passing a decree (the phrasing in the World Book is pretty vague), 2) making it public, and 3) the news reaching ToJ.

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Second there is no connection between whatever they do or guard or Jon. We do not know where Jon was before he was in Winterfell. 

They clearly say they have a duty at ToJ and they don't consider it their duty to go to Viserys. Since at that point Aegon is already dead and Viserys is the only known living heir, they should consider him their king and thus their duty to go to him. They don't, which doesn't make sense unless there is still someone before him in the succession line, and most likely, the person is at ToJ. However, Jon's presence is not really required - the crucial part about protecting him is not let anyone find out that he was born, so what they need to do is guard Lyanna and make sure no-one finds out that she had given birth.

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The same arguments against it are ignored over and over again. Why would Cersei want to kill Jon if he was Rhaegar's son ? Cersei has a crush on everything Rhaegar and even appoints the Rhaegar clone Aurane Waters to the small council.

??? How would Cersei know???

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

edit: To make that even more clear. When GRRM writes about inheritance he writes about political issues. Dorne was unwilling to do Aerys bidding during the rebellion and only did it because Elia was a hostage. We have a political split between Dorne and Targaryen. That is there.

Yet Dorne didn't join the Rebellion, either, so this split wasn't as bad as you are painting it.

 

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

What makes no sense in the ToJ is a claimant that isn't dornish.

Based on what? It's not in Dorne proper, and even if it was, a wife's home is hardly the place where anyone would expect her husband to hide his mistress.

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

edit2: With Elia and her children hostage Dorne needs another heir from Rhaegar. It makes perfect sense to produce one to get a claim without love. For political reasons. Not because we have a love story. 

A quote for this, please. 

Plus, Elia was originally at DS, not in KL, so the "need" wasn't there from the beginning.

Also, not really sure why Rhaegar should agree to be part of some Dornish breeding program.

 

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Viserys only becomes crown prince, in the event of the death of Rhaegar and ALL of his heirs. 

The World Book states something like "Aerys sent his new heir Viserys to DS". It's not clear what the maester meant by this - that Aerys chose to skip Aegon, or he is merely speaking in retrospect because Aegon was the heir for like a fortnight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
I do not hate R+L=J. I just think this theory is a complete joke. Almost all of the "clues" and "evidences" are based on much personal speculation. The bastard boy who is actually the legitimate heir of the kingdom and the savior of the world. LOL. This is SO ANTI-GRRM. Anyway, I hope to be here when the R+L=J turn ashes into the mouth of this fandom.
Edited by Nina DarkSister

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

A quote for this, please. 

You get two. Jaime V -aSoS. 

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

You get two. Jaime V -aSoS. 

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Sigh. Not this. You stated "Dorne needs another heir from Rhaegar", and THAT I have a problem with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Sigh. Not this. You stated "Dorne needs another heir from Rhaegar", and THAT I have a problem with.

No, no quote there. I was just under the impression of a GRRM inheritance interview I really worked through today. Maybe I got too much GRRM in my mind about how everything is politics. And I can really think myself into powerplay here and how Dorne tries to get a claim on the 7K for generations and when they finally have it, they have to keep it somehow. 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nina DarkSister said:
I do not hate R+L=J. I just think this theory is a complete joke. Almost all of the "clues" and "evidences" are based on much personal speculation. The bastard boy who is actually the legitimate heir of the kingdom and the savior of the world. LOL. This is SO ANTI-GRRM. Anyway, I hope to be here when the R+L=J turn ashes into the mouth of this fandom.

Actually, it's based on book quotes and the interpretation of those quotes and the little details that even GRRM cites, that which leads to possible answers as to the meaning of those quotes. This is from all five books and the companion world book. This has been proven time and time again on this very forum.  So yeah,  its not really based on solely personal speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

No, no quote there. I was just under the impression of a GRRM inheritance interview I really worked through today. Maybe I got too much GRRM in my mind about how everything is politics. And I can really think myself into powerplay here and how Dorne tries to get a claim on the 7K for generations and when they finally have it, they have to keep it somehow

Well, I'm not saying the bolded is implausible, but what I don't see is Doran simply writing  off Elia and her children and looking for a replacement ASAP. Plus, being held hostage by Aerys didn't really exclude her or her children from anything - Aerys did blackmail Lewyn Martell over her but as far as we know, she was never harmed until the Sack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, I'm not saying the bolded is implausible, but what I don't see is Doran simply writing  off Elia and her children and looking for a replacement ASAP. Plus, being held hostage by Aerys didn't really exclude her or her children from anything - Aerys did blackmail Lewyn Martell over her but as far as we know, she was never harmed until the Sack.

Why would he take Aegon hostage ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

the Cersei chapter where she wants to kill Jon is in aFfC Cersei IV. The remarkable thing here is that she says this in the face of Aurane Waters who looks like Rhaegar. Go figure. And yes, Robert is dead by this point, so get this out of your head. She wants Jon dead while fantasising about Rhaegar. . 

I took a quick look at that chapter and it doesn't read to me like this.

Cersei has a fleeting thought about Aurane Waters' eyes and compares them to Rhaegar's, whereupon she quickly pivots to her own desirability and how she used to dress up as a boy. The council discusses a number of topics and although Cersei's thoughts are explained numerous times, but none of them concern Rhaegar.

Jon Snow comes up only after 7 or 8 different topics (depending upon how you count them) are discussed. That is to say, a significant amount of time passes between Cersei's thought of Rhaegar and the subject of Jon Snow.

In fact, Cersei doesn't think or say anything about Rhaegar for the rest of the chapter after the first mention, which is fleeting. Not even when, after the council meeting ends, she recruits Ser Osney Kettleblack to go north to assassinate Jon Snow. She tells him it's because Jon is aiding Stannis and she doesn't think anything about anything else at that point.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

They clearly say they have a duty at ToJ and they don't consider it their duty to go to Viserys.

Just to amplify this point, the three Kingsguard emphasize their duty as a Kingsguard one; when they say "But not of the Kingsguard" and "The Kingsguard does not flee" and "We swore a vow" and when they castigated Jaime as a "false brother" because he forsook his Kingsguard vow. It's not any old vow nor any old duty that kept them there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Except that is not what anyone is doing.  Let's leave aside for a minute the impossibility of any theory being 100% better than another, let alone the implausibility of Ned hiding Jon from his own father being a 100% or even 99% :drunk: better thoery than hiding Rhaegar's child from Robert :huh:Over the years people have pieced together the clues and come to the conclusion that the best explanation that some or all these clues lead to, and which all the odd details about Ned's behaviour and thoughts and the ToJ, is that R+L=J.  You may have taken a quite different path by spotting a pattern or a trope that led you to an instinctive realisation and recognition that R+L=J that you then questioned and rejected but that is you.  Other people did not have the same thought process and follow the cart before horse path that you are blanket assuming and stating is the case.  You simply can't make an assertion like that on other people's behalf, it's demonstrably false based on this and countless threads over the years.  You think differently and that's ok but understand that your revelations and thought process are yours alone.

Again, it is an opinion.....( In this case yours) that what "people" put together over the years are "the clues" and interpreted correctly.I never once made any such claim that other readers followed the same process as me to discover something.

 Not only is that incorrect,it has nothing to do with the argument. I also made no assertion on anyone's behalf. I am simply repeating what other posters themselves have stated.

I then said to you, do a search on the forum. See how many people:

1. "Said" they went to the RLJ thread and were convinced by what was put as clues

2. How many people went with RLJ  despite the flaws.

3. How many people never took it as the answer and had something else in mind.

Quote

From attempting to understand your argument that Ned not only assumed responsibility from raising Jon but kept his existence secret from his father.  After the ToJ there is no reason not to expect Ned to hand Robert's son over to him and instead keep him secret but every reason to expect him not to keep Rhaegar's child secret.  I still don't follow if you really think Lyanna made Ned promise to keep Jon secret from Robert and to raise him at WF or if Ned did this himself because he (or Lyanna as well) was terrified that Jon might be "taken to court".  The threat to Jon is from having Rhaegar as his father, Robert would be perfectly capable of keeping him as safe as Edric Storm and there is simply no reason for Ned not to offer to raise Jon at WF which solves all these problems.  Quite simply, protecting Jon in this way only stacks up if his identity needs to be kept secret from Robert (i.e. he is Rhaegar's son not Robert's). 

Ahhhh, you are one of those who believe Lyanna died at the toj after giving birth to Jon there. I'm sorry but (and this is my fault). A large part of the RLJ theory is the toj. So let me say, regarding the toj, that location and any scenario that involves it doesn't give any insight into who fathered Jon.

We can't put Lyanna and or Rhaegar at anytime there together.

1. The idea that Lyanna was there comes from Ned's dream. All elements in Ned's dream because it is a dream;need not have happened in the same space and time.

2. I charge you to find me any where in the text by a reliable narrator that shows Ned with Jon in between Dorne and Winterfell.He supposedly traveled from Dorne with Howland and a wetnurse all the way to WF.He dropped off Barbery's horse.They had to eat,rest do all of these things in between that journey.Find me anyone who claims that they saw Ned with a baby and a woman.

There is no way ,absolutely no way after having lossed Lyanna would Robert Baratheon let Ned take his son to be raised at WF.That would never happen, are you forgetting who we are talking about? Robert " I am the king" Robert?

This is what Robert would do,he would make Jon his heir. He would still marry Cersie under Jon Arryn's advice ( to keep Tywin in check). And Jon would never make it to his third baby because Cersie would have had him killed.We don't have to guess what hee choice would be.We know what she would do.

"She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. "The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid."

The above is what Ned felt about court,why would he have wanted Jon in that?

Quote

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Consider Cat's statement,Jon was already settled at WF by the time she came home when the wars were over. Ned could have brought Jon from around the corner for all we know.

When you are speaking to people who don't subscribe to RLJ it would help if you not project the tenants of that belief to the other arguement. This is why you and i are having a hard time communicating.You don't have to believe what i do ,but in order to uunderstand you need to find out if a reader believes the fundamentals on which RLJ stands are in fact what they believe.

E.g. The part i bolded and underlined is a prime example. RLJ believes that Lyanna extracted a promise from Ned to protect Jon "from Robert".So obviously, to you the promise has to be something specifically along those lines.

I don't believe Lyanna went into such specifics , a general plea when it comes to that would suffice.

1. I wan't to lie nex to Brandon and father. ( That alone tells us that she wanted to be buried at home.Short simple and you get the point.She is on her way out.

I wan't to show you a parallel:

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

"The girl," the king said. "Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it … not too late … talk to them … Varys, Littlefinger … don't let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be … better than me." He winced. "Gods have mercy."

The above is Robert's death which was super-imposed on Ned's memory of Lyanna's death.Here we see Robert pleading for Dany's life.An innocent child that was not his.... But here's the part i want you to keep in mind.He also asks Ned to make a simple promise that encompasses a lot. " Help my son,Ned.Make him be....better than me."

That is an open ended promise on which the specifics of how that was carried out depended on Ned. He excercised it in this way by not even thinking of Cersie's kids.He in his mind thought of Robert's bastards.

So what does this have to do with what Lyanna may have asked Ned? There is no need to invent and create a boogey man from which Jon needs to be saved,especially if nothing is pointing to that except fan speculation.

A simple " Ned watch over my son." To which Ned would be the one who decided how best to " watch over Jon."

Enter "his" reasoning for never wanting Jon to be raised with Robert.

Quote

Subsequent reasoning that Cersei was a threat to Robert's bastards after his death is years after the fact and unlikely to preoccupy Ned or Lyanna at the time of "promise me Ned" (did they spare Cersei a thought?) and also overlooks that the bastards Cersei hunts down are commoners at KL.  She does not demand the head of Edric Storm and it would have sparked another civil war to demand the head of Jon Snow (a Snow but also a Barratheon and a Stark).  If Jon's real parents were Robert and Lyanna announcing this and raising him at WF under the watchful eye of Uncle Ned, Warden of the North, makes him the safest bastard in the 7K.

No no no, i went back and looked at my post i  said " the author has written it whereby it is Robert's children that were and still are in danger from Mad Cersie.This is the current story...She laments that Cat has left her to deal with Jon Snow,and we have a true statement from Tyrion on how Cersie hated Robert so much she would kill anything that was his.How much now would she hate Jon Snow.The son of her husband by a woman whose name he would call out in bed. A woman who Cersie affirmed that Robert was still in love with.

You are doing it again. We can't look at what we might have done or what Ned should have done.I am telling you what Ned thought and believed that is not ever going to change.You can't get around that.

Quote

Also, consider that Ned's protestations about taking a bastard to Court are really a smokescreen not to have the child he has hidden away for 15 years paraded around infront of Varys et al to have everyone start prying into who his mother was.  He has no intention of taking Jon to court and only protests this when Catelyn makes it clear she won't have Jon at WF when Ned leaves.  Something that isn't even an issue if he ever tells her Jon is Robert's son!

Still looking at things through RLJ lens. TTHE,you are making complicated something that need not be. Ned is honest about why he isn't taking Jon south. We see societal and political reasons why he wouldn't want to get Jon tied up in the madness in the south if he were Robert's. Its not a smokescreen, you are inventing something to fit another.

Cat made it clear that overtime she grew to love Ned,and i'm pretty sure it would have taken time for that to delvelop on Ned's part as well. He had no reason to tell Cat anything regarding Jon's parentage.

The same reason he wouldn't tell her if Rhaegar was Jon's father is the same reason he wouldn't tell her if Robert was his father.Either way it has nothing to do with anything regarding Jon's protection.

It comes down to this,for what possible reason would Ned have to tell Cat be it Rhaegar or Robert. He would be telling her for????

Quote

Ned lying to Robert to hide the truth of Jon's parentage and protect Jon from Robert's fury towards Dragonspawn is good reasoning and in character.  Ned lying to Robert (by omission) on his deathbed by writing "my heirs" rather than "my son, Joffrey" and feeling shitty about lying to spare his dying friend a horrible truth is good reasoning and in character.  Ned going to KL to uncover the truth of Jon Arryn's death and to protect Robert from his enemies - the Lannisters - and regreting on his friend's deathbed that he failed him is totally in character.  Ned taking Robert's son out of the cradle and keeping his identity secret from his father (and Ned's best friend) all his life because he does not trust his friend to keep his own son and Ned's nephew safe is out of character and poor reasoning.  Offer to raise him at WF and all the problems are solved in one go without a lifetime of lies and regrets.

The bolded is incorrect.Read the context of Ned's jail house lament. It was in response to his auditory hallucination of Robert's query.

" How did we get here? You in jail and me killed by a pig."

What ever Ned lied about would have changed the course of where they both ended up.

Also,Robert was seconds away from death, telling him about Joffrey when he was about to die would have accomplished nothing except  pulled Percy from "Green mile" on Robert. .

In fact Ned outright  stated:"

Quote

 

Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more.

It is your reasoning that is flawed my friend.Why would Ned be sorry about NOT telling his friend something that would obviously hurt him?

Quote

Your thinking and expression of what you mean has struck me as muddled (insconsistent, unclear, contradictory) a few times.  I'm not really bothered if you think that is a barbed comment and you can disagree as vehemently as you want but it's not for you to say my opinion of your argument and clarity of expression is dishonest.

You didn't want to hear. There is nothing muddled or incoherent about saying something being obvious a point of view. If posters say RLJ is obvious it offends many. it is a matter of opnion based on individual factors.None of which matters in the end because it all comes down to what GRRM says.

His goals about constructing a mystery re: His nana.

His wife's own statements on this mystery tells me.

1.If RLJ is the answer GRRM's nana would have figured it out in no time and that can't be reconciled.

2. Parris says her hubby doesn't do obvious and what point of view she is speaking from. She thinks its obvious.

How hard is that to grasp? Not hard, you want to hear something and you aren't so you are grasping.

Quote

Let's not be silly.  There are more subtle ways to show how a pov character is uncomfortable or concerned about something.  A lot of Ned's thought about Jon, Lyanna and Rhaegar for example.  There is an absence of such in his povs at WF.

You didn't ask that didn't you? You asked why has Ned not thought so? But i will bite with two or three examples. Ned would find a way to say something right? or think and do something right?

Quote

The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.

E.g. Ned made it a habit to talk to Jon often about Robert,whom he elevated in Jon's eyes over everyone ( a giant among princes) now who "princes"on the Trident could Ned have been speaking about?

This scene is beautifully written. It is that of a best friend telling a son about his father in his own way. He couldn't tell Jon that Robert was his dad,but he made damn sure to hype Robert in his eyes;telling him how awesome he was.

Then we have this:

Quote

"A brothel?" Ned said. "The Lord of the Eyrie and Hand of the King visited a brothel with Stannis Baratheon?" He shook his head, incredulous, wondering what Lord Renly would make of this tidbit. Robert's lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm, but Stannis was a different sort of man; a bare year younger than the king, yet utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving, grim in his sense of duty.

This is Ned thinking of how in famous Robert's lusts was before entering the brothel where his bastard was.. you know? Of the girl who evoked Lyanna for Ned.

Quote

She smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

Happening on seperate pages is one fluid scene by Ned.Whose lusts was he speaking of before going to visit said brothel?

You also mentioned something about moments of being nervous etc.

Quote

Lysa Arryn held her silence behind the high walls of the Eyrie. The squire was dead, and Jory was still searching the whorehouses. What did he have but Robert’s bastard? Ned,agot

The following is the next couple of chapters but again its like one scene.

Quote

Father, they were talking about killing you! Not the monsters, the two men. They didn't see me, I was being still as stone and quiet as a shadow, but I heard them. They said you had a book and a bastard and if one Hand could die, why not a second? Is that the book? Jon's the bastard, I bet."
"Jon? Arya, what are you talking about? Who said this?"(Arya,Wizard chaper)

And you say you wanted to see some kind of concern.The double entendres are just too priceless here.Other than that,this freaked Ned out.

I do not think i need to explain this or why Ned is freaked out.

Quote

This sums this whole conversation up to a T.  You either don't understand what you are saying or forget and claim you said something else (part of the reason we are going round in circles and I find what you say muddled).  What you said:

As usual for this conversation I quote you but you indignanlty claim you said no such thing (it's there in black and white :dunno:) or that you meant something else.  If you don't see the problem here you should take a step back and think about it for a while.

You didn't quote anything. you keep misrepresenting what i said or not quoting parts at all.So let's leave it that.

Quote

I replied in kind.  I fully acknowledge that it wasn't the friendliest response.  Do you see how a response of Infowars to one of thinking the earth is flat is a response in kind not some gratuitous personal attack?

You are doing it again.You flippantly used something i said to RLJ ers thinking "the earth was flat" .

I 100% used the term the earth is flat but you misrepresented what i said. I said plainly to paraphrase at one point those who thought the earth was flat were the majority.That thinking and them being in the majority didn't change the fact that they were wrong.

Its as simple as that. You somehow got it twisted that i was calling RLJers a name or saying something personal against them.No i wasn't.

Quote

Two accusations of dishonesty from someone who is claiming not to indulge in personal attacks.  Most excellent reasoning.

The constant misrepresentation is what i called dishonest because i felt....I am using an "I" statement that you were doing it intetionally.

Quote

These are all part and parcel of the arguments that R+L=J is too obvious.  You must see this.  It is a fundamental part of your reasoning for rejecting it and seeking a different explanation.  As there is not a particularly good one you are forced into Robert being the father, not because is has strong textual support but because, once you rule our R+L=J, you are left with the scraps and this is the best alternative that can be cobbled together.  Others say Bandon and Ahsara, others say Aerys, others say Mance. None of them make a great deal of sense or are more convincing (or 100% better) than R+L=J.

Because you keep relying. And your replies keep saying you didn't say what you did and therefore my points are wrong.  Or that basic stuff means something different.  That invites a reponse.  I don't care if you think Spare Boot is Jon's father.

Again and i am repeating myself. I didn't reject it because it was obvious. I told you flat out there were things about the theory that bothered me. I wouldn't reconcile it and just swept those things under the carpet.

It wasn't really interested.There was a time on here Jon's parentage was the answer to everything wrong with Westeros.But I has Other mysteries to devout time to.

I didn't do this for Jon's parentage but i did do this when it came to the Others.Why that is important is because reading the text i knew what history said about the Others and i knew to doubt the eye witness account.

The same flaws at the core regarding the Others were the same flaws that came to mind when i saw "RLJ" the only difference was..

At the time i was more interested in the Others and showing proof for that theory to really care about RLJ like that.

Lastly, you have failed,failed to counter my texts with anything remotely feasible.

Every rebutal you have had has been thrown down by text because "your" reasoning is flawed.It is flawed because you think the fundamentals of RLJ is a one fit all that needs to be answered for you to see merit.

1. You like so many others have conclusions, and you make that RLJ instead of just not contorting text.

2. You somehow think Ned could see through glass candles or something and so you answer in terms of what you think  should have or could instead of just simply looking at what was and is.

To quote The Matrix " One cannot see pass the choices one already made.

Ned had a belief based on culture,religion,politics and he made choices that reflect those beliefs. As time went by he still kept a watchful eye and made choices based on what Cersie did.

Quote

Stuff like this.  Wylla, Ashara and even the briefly mentioned fisherman's daughter are red herrings.  Lyanna isn't ever considered by anyone in story or by a lot of the readership.  You have to get to Lyanna before you get to Rhaegar.  Or Robert :shocked:.

 I am not saying that IMO Wylla,Ashara,FD aren't red herrings.You get no disagreement from me on those.I'm saying a red herring  is more than just a name(s) being thrown out for people to follow.

Note: No disrespect to anyone who believes that Ashara or Wylla is Jon's mom.

Again what is a red herring: something especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lot of readers believe R+L=J, while some believe Ned+Ashara=Jon.

However, i have noticed that the book readers more hate A+J=T or A+J=J&C.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

A question, where does it say in the text by reliable sources who would know that Ned brought a baby back from Dorne?

Didn't Cat say when she arrived at WF Jon and his wetnurse were already settled in?

So Ned traveled all the way from Dorne with his sister's remains,a wetnurse,Howland, dropped off Barbery's horse and no one at any point sees him traveling with a woman and a baby?

these are all good points. 

Edric Dayne is not necessary reliable when he tells us that Jon was nursed at Starfall that's just what he was told. Barbrey Dustin doesn't mention Jon or a bastard baby when she talks about Ned returning that horse, if i remember right.    

Jon being settled at winterfell before Cat and Robb arrived would suggest to me that Ned was well on his way back to winterfell, long before Robb was born. 

I have always thought that if Lyanna had given birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy, Ned would have wasted time tearing down the Tower, Going to Dorne to return the sword. He probably would have just made his way to old town and caught a ship to White Harbor with Howland, Jon and Lyanna's bones. 

Him going all the way to starfall seems like it was Far more important that just to pick up a wet nurse or drop off a sword.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

these are all good points. 

Edric Dayne is not necessary reliable when he tells us that Jon was nursed at Starfall that's just what he was told. Barbrey Dustin doesn't mention Jon or a bastard baby when she talks about Ned returning that horse, if i remember right.    

Jon being settled at winterfell before Cat and Robb arrived would suggest to me that Ned was well on his way back to winterfell, long before Robb was born. 

I have always thought that if Lyanna had given birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy, Ned would have wasted time tearing down the Tower, Going to Dorne to return the sword. He probably would have just made his way to old town and caught a ship to White Harbor with Howland, Jon and Lyanna's bones. 

Him going all the way to starfall seems like it was Far more important that just to pick up a wet nurse or drop off a sword.  

I don't even recall Edric saying Jon was there with Wylla.Or that anyone observed him there.Only that she was his mom.

I would expect someone in between to say something.

I'm trying to work the following out mentally.Hypothetically speaking did he bypass Riverun and not see his newborn son and Cat.Or Hypothetically speaking did he go by a different route?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

Edric Dayne is not necessary reliable when he tells us that Jon was nursed at Starfall that's just what he was told. Barbrey Dustin doesn't mention Jon or a bastard baby when she talks about Ned returning that horse, if i remember right.  

Huh? Ned Dayne never says Jon was nursed at Starfall. He tells Arya Jon is his milk brother, because he (Ned) was nursed by Wylla, who is Jon's mother. 

44 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

Jon being settled at winterfell before Cat and Robb arrived would suggest to me that Ned was well on his way back to winterfell, long before Robb was born. 

IMO it doesn't suggest nothing of the sort. For this to be possible, Jon has to be much older than Robb than he actually is. It's impossible to hide a difference of many months in babies and toddlers. I'd say 2 months is the most you can go either way w/ Jon and Robb. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm trying to work the following out mentally.Hypothetically speaking did he bypass Riverun and not see his newborn son and Cat.Or Hypothetically speaking did he go by a different route?

I have always wondered this as well. Why skip Riverrun? He most likely returned to King's Landing to debrief everyone on what happened and told Robert that Jon was his with Wylla, else how would Robert know about Wylla, doesn't seem like something he'd put in a letter.  I always thought that he caught a ship out of King's Landing to White Harbor but once I read ADWD we get the whole returning of the horse at Barrowton Hall.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×