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Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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28 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Okay, this makes no sense.

First, you say Cersei "would not kill him" because she would somehow recognize Jon as Rhaegar's son by looking at Aurane Waters, then I point out that she thinks Jon should have been killed long ago and that now she has to take care of that and she agrees with the council to have him assassinated and she pictures him being stabbed and then she personally recruits the assassin to kill him. And somehow "she would not kill him" is proved by her planning to kill him?

I honestly don't see what is the point you are trying to make.

I think he is saying Cersei would not kill Rhaegar's bastard due to her one-time infatuaton with him but she would and does kill Robert's bastards (or Ned's).  So the way she warms to Aurane Waters inidcates that the Jon she only glimpsed or never saw at WF would be safe from her if he was Rhaegar's son (how she would know this is not clear).  As she is prepared to kill him he must not be Rhaegar's son.  It seems a weak reed to hang an argument off but I may not have understood what he is trying to say.

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9 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think he is saying Cersei would not kill Rhaegar's bastard due to her one-time infatuaton with him but she would and does kill Robert's bastards (or Ned's).  So the way she warms to Aurane Waters inidcates that the Jon she only glimpsed or never saw at WF would be safe from her if he was Rhaegar's son (how she would know this is not clear).  As she is prepared to kill him he must not be Rhaegar's son.  It seems a weak reed to hang an argument off but I may not have understood what he is trying to say.

Thank you. I think you are probably correct. I appreciate all of your efforts in this thread; you're arguing valiantly. :cheers:

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28 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

As she is prepared to kill him he must not be Rhaegar's son. 

That is the core idea. But it is not just around the idea of Rhaegar but under the general idea of her hate for Jon. Aurane Waters is not just a point about Rhaegar, it is a point about bastards in general: they are just bastards for her. Cersei's hate for Jon goes deeper. And it is not just about the decision to give land to Stannis. The NW had no chance and Cersei knows this. Cersei can be bloody, but only if it is direct against her interests. Some land for Stannis so far in the north is not really something Cersei would even care about. It is about Jon.

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though. - aFfC Cercei VIII

 

Cersei knows 15 years later how Rhaegar looked. You can make of this what you want, Jon has seen her at least twice, it may be a "week reed" as you say but still, we can at least consider that Cersei would recognize a bastard of her beloved Rhaegar. 

And this leads to the contradiction. Cersei has no particular hate for bastards or things far far away. She has a hate for persons. And as much as she can hate them, she can also adore them. And this is the point. Under R+L I at least expect Cersei to be very much conflicted about Jon. If she is not then she either does not know Rhaegar at all or Jon is not R+L. 

Call it "week reed", I wouldn't call it strong but I also wouldn't outright reject it.

Edited by SirArthur

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1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Okay, this makes no sense.

First, you say Cersei "would not kill him" because she would somehow recognize Jon as Rhaegar's son by looking at Aurane Waters, then I point out that she thinks Jon should have been killed long ago and that now she has to take care of that and she agrees with the council to have him assassinated and she pictures him being stabbed and then she personally recruits the assassin to kill him. And somehow "she would not kill him" is proved by her planning to kill him?

I honestly don't see what is the point you are trying to make.

argument by contradiction

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I don't see anything indicating that Cersei was able to connect Rhaegar to Jon here or anywhere else in her chapters. Plus, Jon would be a threat to her kids which means he's a goner, son of Rhaegar or not.

AFFC Cersei IV

"In any case," the queen went on, "Lord Eddard's younger daughter is with Lord Bolton, and will be wed to his son Ramsay as soon as Moat Cailin has fallen." So long as the girl played her role well enough to cement their claim to Winterfell, neither of the Boltons would much care that she was actually some steward's whelp tricked up by Littlefinger. "If the north must have a Stark, we'll give them one." She let Lord Merryweather fill her cup once again. "Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Night's Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Stark's bastard son to be their Lord Commander."

"Snow, the boy is called," Pycelle said unhelpfully.

"I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father." Her husband's by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. "Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl." The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me. "Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

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9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't see anything indicating that Cersei was able to connect Rhaegar to Jon here or anywhere else in her chapters. Plus, Jon would be a threat to her kids which means he's a goner, son of Rhaegar or not.

I don't think so. Cersei has no particular love for her kids. It is only about her and her inner desire. 

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1 minute ago, SirArthur said:

I don't think so. Cersei has no particular love for her kids. It is only about her and her inner desire. 

Cersei does not love her kids in any way which one would call desirable or healthy, but she's very attached to them and very protective of them. In as much as Cersei can love anyone, she loves her kids.

ASOS Tyrion III

"Tywin," Ser Kevan said, before Lord Tywin could vent his obvious displeasure, "some of the gold cloaks who deserted during the battle have drifted back to barracks, thinking to take up duty once again. Ser Addam wishes to know what to do with them."

"They might have endangered Joff with their cowardice," Cersei said at once. "I want them put to death."

 

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40 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That is the core idea. But it is not just around the idea of Rhaegar but under the general idea of her hate for Jon. Aurane Waters is not just a point about Rhaegar, it is a point about bastards in general: they are just bastards for her. Cersei's hate for Jon goes deeper. And it is not just about the decision to give land to Stannis. The NW had no chance and Cersei knows this. Cersei can be bloody, but only if it is direct against her interests. Some land for Stannis so far in the north is not really something Cersei would even care about. It is about Jon.

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though. - aFfC Cercei VIII

 

Cersei knows 15 years later how Rhaegar looked. You can make of this what you want, Jon has seen her at least twice, it may be a "week reed" as you say but still, we can at least consider that Cersei would recognize a bastard of her beloved Rhaegar. 

And this leads to the contradiction. Cersei has no particular hate for bastards or things far far away. She has a hate for persons. And as much as she can hate them, she can also adore them. And this is the point. Under R+L I at least expect Cersei to be very much conflicted about Jon. If she is not then she either does not know Rhaegar at all or Jon is not R+L. 

Call it "week reed", I wouldn't call it strong but I also wouldn't outright reject it.

She does not hate Jon.  He is aiding enemies of the crown, is himself the son (or so she believes) of an enemy of hers and can form a rallying point for the opposition to her allies, the Boltons, prolonging the conflict in the North and raising the prospect of a Stark restoration and he was chosen by the NW despite Tywin's not too subtle hints that Janos Slynt should be the next commander so he is winning support somehow.  Better to remove your enemies before they have too much power or pose too much of a problem.

Thing is Jon looks like a Stark, not a Targ.  If he looked like Rhaegar we can assume a whole lot of people would notice this!  So we can't use the argument that Cersei would recognise a son of Rhaegar and Jon doesn't look like Rhaegar to prove that he is not Rhaegar's son.  Robert's bastards tend to look like Robert and Jon looks like a Stark so there is no particular reason for Cersei to "hate" Jon, no more than, say, there is to hate Aurane Waters.  It's simply what they do and whether one is an ally, the other an opponent, that determines this.  I would love to see what Cersei has to say the next time she sees or thinks of Aurane Waters after he took the royal fleet off to the Stepstones to play pirate. 

Why do you expect Cersei to be conflicted about Jon?  She would have to know who he was in order to be conflicted or not.  Why would this suggest she did not know Rhaegar at all?  As Ned and Catelyn's children prove they can resemble either the mother or the father (the seed is strong is for the Barratheon + Lannister unions as decreed by GRRM Genetics Rule 1, not for all father - son likenesses which follow proper genetics, cue Robb and Bran resembling Cat not Ned).

I don't think the Cersei chapter tells us anything about Jon's parentage except Cersei firmly believes he is the bastard son of Ned Stark.  If what Cersei believes gives you some adidtional reason to suspect that Jon is not Rhaegar's son then fair enough but I can't see why this would be so.

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4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope. Cat knows when Robb was conceived, on her wedding night. She and Ned got married early on in the war. As far as Cat knows, Ned fathered Jon during the war, which lasted "close to a year". She also thinks about not having a problem w/ "Ned's betrayal", but rather w/ the fact that he brought his bastard home to raise. That means she assumes Ned fathered Jon after her marriage. But even if she considered the possibility of Jon having been conceived before her marriage to Ned, there's only a couple of months for this to happen, of that much. And all of this means Robb and Jon have to be close in age, regardless of who is older and who is younger.

What? How on earth would that be possible?

 

5 hours ago, Geddus said:

What do you mean "what does Ned cheating have to do with this"? Catelyn can't stand Jon because he's the symbol of the fact that Ned slept with another woman after they got married.

"A Game of Thrones", Catelyn II:

"Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun."

Catelyn thinks Ned married her, got her pregnant, went off to war and fathered Jon with some woman so in her eyes the bastard must be younger than Robb. Which doesn't make it true, obviously, but it means that even if Jon was in fact the oldest of the two it must have been by a close margin in order for Ned to be able to pass him as younger instead.

 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wow :shocked:.  You said

Again, your words.  "this is what RLJ is".  Getting it backwards.  You are expressly stating that this is what people do.  And when I reply that the people who believe R+L=J follow the clues you flat out state you "made no assertion on anyone's behalf".......while proceeding to do exactly that by summarising your belief that this is what people do!

You're unbelievable :lol:

I understand you want it to be true that R+L=J only works as a backwards argument, I understand you want to be able to point to your highly subjective "analysis" of the forum to prove that people get it backwards but this doesn't make it so.  Maybe it does in some cases but you are ignoring all the voices that tell you something different.

That's bias and denial of what you find inconvenient.  It's silly.  How about all these people who did what you said pop up in this thread and tell us it's what they did rather than you claim it's so.  Let people speak for themsleves.

Pure conjecture.  What interest has Robert ever shown in any of his children?  He was hardly the doting father you know.....  Robert was not yet king.  The fact that he was about to be crowned and that he later married Cersei Lannister in a political alliance to cement that kingship makes it absolutely absurd to suggest that he would make Jon his heir and destroy that alliance.  Why would Tywin marry Cersei to Robert when Robert has an heir?  Why would Robert marry Cersei when he has an heir? Even if we do take that absurdity as a possible course of action, proclaiming Jon the son of King Robert I and Lyanna Stark and legitimising him makes Jon the safest child in Westeros, all the power of Arryn, Stark, Tully and Barratheon is fully behind him.  And you think Ned would have taken Jon to WF in utmost secrecy rather than see him raised as Crown Prince by his own father.  It's far more likely that Jon Arryn and Ned persuade Robert to marry Cersei while Ned takes Jon to WF and he lives a safe life like Edric Storm.

I feel you are completely ignoring the fact that Jon is not Ned's son (in your scenario he is Robert's) and he has no right to make these choices.  You are also ignoring the fact that Ned is Robert's best friend.  It's an unforgivable betrayal.  I'll say it again: raising Robert's son at WF the way Penrose raised Edric Storm at SE is a far simpler and obvious solution to this problem you are creating and finding such a drastic and completely unnecesary solution to.

The nest of adders he took Sansa to?  And Arya?  And you realise he would have taken Bran but for his fall? Seems your argument falls pretty flat after some basic scrutiny of what Ned actually does compared to what he says here.  He expects to be able to protect all of them.....:dunno: 

He does not hide him away when the royal party arrive or send him to Castle Cerwyn or Deepwood Motte, he just moves him off the top table to avoid putting a bastard on the same footing as the royals.  It's like he does not fear Jon being seen here and by them.

We do not know what the promise is.  RLJ does not assume that Ned promised Lyanna to protect Jon from Robert, it attempt to fit "the promise" into a series of events and thoughts from Ned that explains his behaviour, his regrets and the damage he was prepared to do to his own reputation and his marriage to Catelyn to keep it.  Burying Lyanna in the crypts at WF does not in any way, shape or form provide a reasonable explanation for what the promise was.  The promise may indeed have been very specific or very vague and the how of fulfilling it left to Ned and it is for everyone to construct the best explanation of it they can.  To me the best answer is "promise to keep him safe and keep his identity secret".  Ironically this works for your theory as well as R+L=J but that is because the promise is simply part of the argument and by no means all of it.

That's precisely the point.  After the sack of KL Ned went to Storms End and later to the ToJ with his 6 most trusted companions.  At this stage there is no reason to believe Robert will marry Cersei or to believe that Cersei is the murderous person she later proves to be.  Clearly Ned does not understand the extent of the danger Cersei represents 15 years later when he forewarns her that the incest has been discovered and allows her to spring a trap on him.  You can't have it both ways: Ned saw the danger she represented 15 years earlier but ignores it 15 years later?  Ned has no reason to consider the threat that Cersei poses before deciding whether Robert can be allowed to raise his own son who you variously and arbitrarily decide will be a royal bastard raised at Court or even made his heir.  These are strawmen arguments.  There is no danger to Jon if he is Robert's son (from Cersei), there is if he is Rhaegar's (from a guy with a warhammer known to say about the dead children of Rhaegar Targaryen "I see Dragonspawn").  That is on Ned's mind a hell of a lot more than the possible reaction of Robert's future and unknown marriage partner.

The lie that Jon is Ned's bastard and Ned's refusal to talk about it hurts Cat tremendously over the course of their marriage.  They are arguing over Jon remaining at WF in the early chapters of AGOT.  It also leads to an ugly scene between Robb and Cat over Robb naming Jon as his heir.  There has to be a good reason for Ned's secrecy.  You feel the idea that Robert was Jon's father is something Ned would risk pisoning his marriage and muddying the succession right of his own children over because of the shadow of a threat.  That's a lot of damage over a secret that never needed to be kept.  That's the things about lies and secrets, they lead to other lies and problems down the line.  Protecting Jon's life is a good reason to keep a secret (dragonspawn), not being sure who Roebrt might marry and how things might turn out for his bastard son later down the line is a poor one.

What are you trying to say?  It'a a sad scene, the dying king realising he was a shitty king and saying as much. Honest Ned can't find any compliments or little white lies even at this stage and has to settle for agreeing with Robert that he was "not as bad as Aerys"!  The scene has further pathos as Robert specifically names Joffrey as his heir and honest Ned has to bite back his impulse towards honesty , i.e. syaing Joffrey is not his son, because it really would be the ultimate kick to the man who is already down and out.  It's the truth but a truth that does not need to be told.  He then goes off and writes a letter to Stannis telling him he is Robert's heir.  Simple enough.

Right, right.  "It's too obvious".  You are priceless :D

Super, that is entirely your pregative.  No doubt you will stop making the "it's too obvious" argument in the same posts then.  Then you will have a train of reasoning that explains why you think Robert is Jon's father that in no way starts off by saying that R+L=J is too obvious.  And people like me won't pick up on posts that say it's too obvious to chip in and answer the OP's question.  Then we'll both not waste hours of our lives on this.....

I don't intend to bite on that.  Simply enough to say I have offered a coherent explanation for everything that I feel merited it (actions of the KG at ToJ, actions of Ned).  If you don't feel this is "remotely feasible" that's up to you.  I don't really care.

Oh, has it now?  You are once again arguing that everyone has it backwards.  Sigh.  And for someone who said that R+L=J was often accompanied by self-inflated egotism you have a droll habit of putting in sweeping statements like "your reasoning is flawed" or sententious quotes - first, Syrio and now The Matrix.  Gosh :wub: 

Incidentally your argument above is flawed as you are consitently ignoring that people work out the clues and reach the asnwer rather than get it backwards like you allege.  That makes your quote hugely ironic.  But don't let that bother you.

Time will tell over the theories.

Place holder.

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39 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

 

Place holder.

You know the forums are not gonna run out of space or anything like that, right? :D

Unless you mean placeholder as in maths, in which case I understand it even less! :dunno:

 

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I guess I should bring some more popcorn.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I would love to see what Cersei has to say the next time she sees or thinks of Aurane Waters after he took the royal fleet off to the Stepstones to play pirate. 

For Aurane's sake, I hope Cersei won't see him again, but let me predict: he will look much less Rhaegar and way more Robert :D 

 

 

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:28 PM, Yukle said:

Rhaegar is secretly Lyanna who is secretly Jon?! WOW!  :o There's a theory! :D 

Teasing aside, I'm with you. I love the theory. And not the show.

lol:D 

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On 3/13/2018 at 4:05 AM, Geddus said:

Assuming R+L=J? No, he didn't, the Targaryens weren't the ruling dynasty anymore.

Anyway Ned sure as hell didn't hide his nephew for personal gain, which was kinda my point: on the contrary he did the best thing he could to protect him, even at a cost to himself. And by the way, trying to put Jon on the throne would have been idiotic at that point.

He actually is usurping Jon, seeing as the throne is still up for grabs. At this point nearly all of the families that have sworn fealty to Robert are those who rose in rebellian in the first place.

Also, it would not have. He could appeal to the Martells' thirst for vengeance, the Tyrells' thirst for a crown and the North's fealty. Then he could rule in Jon's stead. That would certainly be better than allowing Robert to bankrupt the Seven Kingdoms.

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On 3/13/2018 at 6:21 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

We can agree that Jon "thinks" he knows his own birthday. His birthday is what the authority figures around him says it is. Though, imo ample clues have been left in the text to question Jon's age.

You are doing two things here and both are problematic.

1. You are assuming that the KGs presence there is important and relates to Jon.

2. You are assuming it could only relate to Jon.

3. You are then by your bolded beginning with a conclusion to prove your point.

So I cannot give you an answer based on the parameters you set.

If you've been around babies, you'd know that it's hard to lie about their ages by more than a few months. It isn't until their teen years that we see some wiggle room when estimating their ages.

That being said, Cat seems to think that they are similar in age, meaning that no one else in Winterfell had reason to correct her (because we've already established that maids gossip, which is how she knew of Ashara). This means that he is the age he is, or he is close enough to not draw questions, and since this was less than a year after both were born (going off of Catelyn's thoughts) there is no way he can be more than two to four months over the estimated age, to be believable.

I'm doing none of those things you just listed.

I'm not assuming anything. I am making a simple statement and asking a question. The Kingsguard being there makes a decent amount of sense if Rhaegar and Lyanna married and if she is carrying his legitimate child. This doesn't mean that their presence is important to the overall story, but it does create a nagging sensation in your head, asking Why were they there? 

I also don't assume that it could only relate to Jon. I do however suspect that it relates to Jon based on the lack of a cohesive story regarding his mother, and the amount of variation revolving around this when people bring it up.

The bolded section is not a conclusion, but a question. I'm asking anyone to give me a reason that they would be there, other than the one I've just stated.

How can you not give me an answer based on what I've just stated? It shouldn't be that hard.

On 3/13/2018 at 6:21 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

I didn't answer because i can't answer something illogical logically.

Again, what Jon can tell us regarding his name day is what he himself was led to believe.Like i said,there is evidence that what he has been led to believe may be wrong.

The answer honestly at least part of it is in your answer.

Why make Jon younger than Robb....Think about the fact that they could lie about when he was born and they did.

Please tell me what is illogical. I would also like to know what evidence there is.

We know that Jon knows what everyone else aside from Ned and Howland Reed knows.

Even if Jon is older than Robb (which my calculations say might be possible) he can't be so old that Robert could be the father or that Brandon can be the father, given Catelyn's belief that he is the age Ned says he is. It's biology 101.

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On 3/13/2018 at 10:31 PM, House Beaudreau said:

The North is Massive, even if we assume that only White Harbor and Winterfell received letters from the Vale, Winterfell would have been calling banners upon receiving the news. Benjen and Jon traveling to the wall is a longer distance than virtually every castle is to Winterfell. Many Bannermen would have arrived in Winterfell before Ned, and most of the rest would have probably showed up shorty thereafter, and some lords south of Winterfell might not have come all the way to Winterfell but stayed put and joined Ned on the March south. 

My assumption for Neds haste is because I believe in GOT Cat states that her and Ned were wed on the same day that her an Brandon were supposed to be married, shortly after the tourney at Harrenhal. This would mean that Ned would have left the Vale, to Winterfell called banners, traveled south, fought at Stone Sept, gone to Riverrun and Married Cat and impregnated her, thats a tight timeline. 

  My point is though, Ashara being impregnated at Harrenhal, or Lyanna being Impregnated sometime after by Rhaegar, Either one fits because Ned went to Dorne anyway and came back with a baby some amount of months  older or younger than Robb.  

     

The speed of this timeline makes little sense and we don't know the timing of Brandon's marriage to Catelyn, given that it is left fairly vague (I don't remember that line about their wedding being the same day).

I Jon were Ned and Ashara's, or Brandon and Ashara's, it would have been several months older. The way they speak in the books, it could go either way.

As an aside, I would like to note that large armies travel faster than small groups.

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9 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

He actually is usurping Jon, seeing as the throne is still up for grabs. At this point nearly all of the families that have sworn fealty to Robert are those who rose in rebellian in the first place.

Also, it would not have. He could appeal to the Martells' thirst for vengeance, the Tyrells' thirst for a crown and the North's fealty. Then he could rule in Jon's stead. That would certainly be better than allowing Robert to bankrupt the Seven Kingdoms.

The throne was not up for grabs, at the time the skirmish at the ToJ happened Robert had already been declared king (among others, by Ned himself) and acknowledged as such by everyone except Dorne.

And yes, Ned trying to make his newborn nephew king would have been so absurd it's not even funny. Start a war right after ending another, against his allies and the best friend he placed on the throne, on behalf of the dynasty he had just deposed? It's ridiculous. His own bannermen would have laughed in his face.

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21 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

As an aside, I would like to note that large armies travel faster than small groups.

Hmm? Are you sure? I always see it the other way around ...

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On 3/15/2018 at 2:06 PM, Lollygag said:

I don't see anything indicating that Cersei was able to connect Rhaegar to Jon here or anywhere else in her chapters. Plus, Jon would be a threat to her kids which means he's a goner, son of Rhaegar or not.

AFFC Cersei IV

 

"In any case," the queen went on, "Lord Eddard's younger daughter is with Lord Bolton, and will be wed to his son Ramsay as soon as Moat Cailin has fallen." So long as the girl played her role well enough to cement their claim to Winterfell, neither of the Boltons would much care that she was actually some steward's whelp tricked up by Littlefinger. "If the north must have a Stark, we'll give them one." She let Lord Merryweather fill her cup once again. "Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Night's Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Stark's bastard son to be their Lord Commander."

 

"Snow, the boy is called," Pycelle said unhelpfully.

 

"I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father." Her husband's by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. "Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl." The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she's left the filthy task to me. "Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

 

Agreed. If anything, the fact that our most unreliable pov says Jon looks like his father makes me think he looks nothing like his true father. 

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On 3/30/2018 at 2:30 AM, Geddus said:

The throne was not up for grabs, at the time the skirmish at the ToJ happened Robert had already been declared king (among others, by Ned himself) and acknowledged as such by everyone except Dorne.

And yes, Ned trying to make his newborn nephew king would have been so absurd it's not even funny. Start a war right after ending another, against his allies and the best friend he placed on the throne, on behalf of the dynasty he had just deposed? It's ridiculous. His own bannermen would have laughed in his face.

You say he'd been acknowledged by everyone with the exception of Dorne. Let's take a head count, shall we:
●We have the North/Ned, who declared for Robert, but is now on the outs with the King. Something about dead children and zero accountability for those responsible. His bannermen can hardly argue against him making Jon King and acting as his regent.
●We have Hoster Tully, who is an opportunist's opportunist. A chunk of his bannermen would back the Targaryens. Then husband of his favored daughter would be regent.
The Tyrells only bent the knee because they had no rallying point and no allies, aside from the Dornish- who they hate. Give them Jon's hand when he comes of age and they'll be pacified and will protect Jon with their lives.
●The Vale, who were split between the two sides at the start of the war.
●Dorne, who were chomping at the bit for justice, and have a deep hatred for the Lannisters (remember how Doran's court reacted to Balon's toast). Promise justice for fealty and they'd be on side.
●The West will likely fight, seeing how all of these events paint a bleak picture for them.
●Robert is a toss-up. Depending on whether he believes what Lyanna might have said, he may give it up due to his love of Ned and his realization that a King raised by him would be a good thing.
It wouldn't necessarily lead to war.

On 3/30/2018 at 3:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

Hmm? Are you sure? I always see it the other way around ...

Correct.

A cautionary tale on the importance of proof reading.

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I think most of it is just the product of boredom. Fans have been speculating about R+L=J since AGOT came out over twenty years ago, and it still has yet to be confirmed in-text. After talking about it for so many years now, people are eager for new conversation.

I personally have a hard time swallowing the romanticism of Rhaegar and Lyanna in general. There's surely much that we don't know as of yet, so my opinion will likely change once the rest of the series is released, but I tend to see them both as selfish fools who got thousands of people killed so that they could play house. Rhaegar's supposed to be a golden boy, the beloved prince who would have been the perfect king, but what king that's worth a damn abandons his family and lets the realm get torn apart so that he can bang a teenager in a hidden tower for a year? And we're clearly supposed to sympathize with Lyanna--she's being forced to marry a man she doesn't love--but then again, neither Brandon nor Ned showed any real desire to marry Cat, and yet both were willing to go through with it. I like Jon, but not enough to justify the deaths of thousands just so he could be conceived.

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