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manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

 

As for the "fever dream": this often gets misinterpreted as completely undermining any significance the dream might have and waving it off as irrelevant. Yet, what GRRM says is that "our dreams are not always literal" - meaning, the dream does not describe the ToJ showdown exactly but relays it in a symbolic or metaphorical way or something like that. However, when you browse through AGOT, you get pieces of information what the substance of the dream is. It is described as an OLD dream about the three KG, a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood - i.e., regardless of the actual content of this particular dream, Ned had had dreams with these three items before. His memory of Lyanna's demise - blood, roses, the promise - is consistent with the imagery of the dream (blood-streaked sky, a storm of rose petals, his reponse "I promise"). He mulls over the outcome of the battle of seven agains three after he wakes up (and is lucid), he is reminded of the scene again as he encounters three KG on the way to Robert, he thinks about the contrast between Rhaegar's "tower of joy" and his own bitter memories of the place. Those are things that really happened - he went to ToJ with seven friends, fought the three KG which cost him six friends, gave Lyanna some promises as she lay dying and she was holding onto roses on her deathbed. The details of it - what exactly was said, or even the sequence of events (for all we know, the fight with the KG may have ensued after Lyanna's death, as a result of a promise which was incompatible with the KG's objectives) remain unknown.

 

 

I'm afraid I'd disagree with that interpretation because context is everything. GRRM's comments were made in response to a specific question and whilst I agree that a fight took place and ended as described, GRRM's warning about dreams not being literal, given the context of that question strongly suggests that Lyanna's death took place somewhere else.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

GRRM:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

 

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On 2/13/2018 at 8:27 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

That being said, the reason why I don't think it's true, is because if it is then it's too obvious

This would only bother me if it was the twist of the series, and I don't think it is.

I generally do think that R+L=J, but I have no reason to believe that GRRM had any intention of obscuring that: he wants us to figure this out. It won't be a disappointing reveal because it's not meant to be a reveal at all. It's not "the twist".

But then there are plenty of people who make a very strong case for Ashara + Ned = Jon, generally combined with R+L=D, and it makes perfect sense, so to some degree I'm agnostic on the matter.

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM's warning about dreams not being literal, given the context of that question strongly suggests that Lyanna's death took place somewhere else.

"Strongly suggests" is a heavier phrase than I'd use, but I agree there is room for doubt.

Here's what Ned remembers while awake.

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

There is simply no reference to Lyanna at all.

So it is possible Ned had repeatedly dreamed about (1) the KG, (2)  the TOJ, and (3) Lyanna in her bed of blood... and yet in real life, only (1) and (2) were there. 

If she was there and died, did he leave her corpse there, then return later to pick it up?  Doubtful.

Did he take it with him as he rode away with Howland, presumably to Starfall to return Dawn?   Well, going by canonical maps, Starfall is roughly three hundred miles away from the TOJ -- about a week of travel time, assuming about 40-50 miles/day.  So that concept is a tad awkward too.

It's also possible he took a detour to some more local place, where he deposited Lyanna's corpse with silent sisters, but if so, we are never told such a thing.

No matter what, I think we can conclude with certainty that the KG/TOJ fight and Lyanna's death were logically linked in Ned's mind.  There is some sort of connection there, whether it's that she was physically present or something else.

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54 minutes ago, JNR said:

"Strongly suggests" is a heavier phrase than I'd use, but I agree there is room for doubt.

Here's what Ned remembers while awake.

There is simply no reference to Lyanna at all.

So it is possible Ned had repeatedly dreamed about (1) the KG, (2)  the TOJ, and (3) Lyanna in her bed of blood... and yet in real life, only (1) and (2) were there. 

If she was there and died, did he leave her corpse there, then return later to pick it up?  Doubtful.

Did he take it with him as he rode away with Howland, presumably to Starfall to return Dawn?   Well, going by canonical maps, Starfall is roughly three hundred miles away from the TOJ -- about a week of travel time, assuming about 40-50 miles/day.  So that concept is a tad awkward too.

It's also possible he took a detour to some more local place, where he deposited Lyanna's corpse with silent sisters, but if so, we are never told such a thing.

No matter what, I think we can conclude with certainty that the KG/TOJ fight and Lyanna's death were logically linked in Ned's mind.  There is some sort of connection there, whether it's that she was physically present or something else.

I agree that they are connected and closely connected at that, but GRRM's answer to the very specific question which was asked does very strongly suggest that they are not geographically connected

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I agree that they are connected and closely connected at that, but GRRM's answer to the very specific question which was asked does very strongly suggest that they are not geographically connected

I think the connection comes in the form of the vision: 

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

This seems to be a green dream or foreshadowing of the storm to come.  The death of Arthur and Lyanna are linked. So to the birth of Jon, Bran and Dany.

A blood streaked sky or red dawn.  A red sky in the morning predicting the rising winds and the storm to come specifically a storm connected to the blue eyes of death and a blood-streaked sky, the birth of dragons and their herald, the red comet.  The Dawn sword itself now waiting to be claimed.

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On 2/13/2018 at 5:31 AM, manchester_babe said:

Why do book readers h8 R+L+J?

Why do you start threads without putting in any of your own thoughts and observations?

Book readers don't have a monolithic hive-mind and thus we all have different opinions.  For example, I'm a book reader and I don't hate R+L=J.  Why do you suppose that is?

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Wrong question.

OP should ask these questions:

Why are majority members and admins/owners of westeros.org board have declared that R+L=J theory is more likely true and fit to explain Jon's true parentage in the overall story of ASOIAF?

Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org?

Why is westeros.org the forum people look to for where theories are to be tested, picked apart and to see how they make narrative and thematic sense? 

 

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13 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Wrong question.

OP should ask these questions:

Why are majority members and admins/owners of westeros.org board have declared that R+L=J theory is more likely true and fit to explain Jon's true parentage in the overall story of ASOIAF?

Just a thought, but maybe because it is. And mind you, I am not saying it is true/canon/fact, just that out of all the theories out there - some of which are quite frankly ludicrous - R+L=J has the most clues, makes the most sense, fits better the timeline given etc etc etc.

13 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org?

I reckon it's because for a theory to carry any weight at all it must make sense and fit into the clues the author has provided. It must also fit the story being told, and R+L=J does both, whereas lots of the 'theories' out there don't and are at times laughable. 

13 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Why is westeros.org the forum people look to for where theories are to be tested, picked apart and to see how they make narrative and thematic sense? 

 

Do you actually know where everyone on the planet go to to test theories? I don't. But I agree that the board here is the best venue for these discussions. The combined amount of knowledge to be found here is incredible. And I have never felt as you seem to feel... as if there's some sort of censorship on anything different than R+L=J. On the contrary in fact, given the absurd amount of 'theories' on this and other topics that are utterly ridiculous and yet tolerated. :dunno:

 

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I think it is likely that RLJ is true, and even though it's not my favorite theory, it's still completely acceptable. The only thing that I desperately want more information about is the context. A "star-crossed lovers" story would make me roll my eyes (as I did at a certain scene in a certain show), whereas if there was something more nefarious going on- sort of a combination of Dany's version and Robert's version- would be really cool. Maybe Lyanna seduced Rhaegar, maybe they were both into prophecy, maybe she really was kidnapped and Rhaegar was a horrible person. Whatever it ends up being, I don't hate RLJ at all- I hate the Romeo and Juliet version of it. 

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3 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org?

I've never seen a sign that this isn't the case. People often post theories here linking to threads on Reddit or YouTube clips, or another site called The Tower of the Hand.

I also like the YouTube channel Civilisation X.

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3 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Why are majority members and admins/owners of westeros.org board have declared that R+L=J theory is more likely true and fit to explain Jon's true parentage in the overall story of ASOIAF?

I'm sure the 98% who believe this (as indicated in a previous poll) all have their individual reasons for believing it.

4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org?

Individuals decide what "authority" they wish to accept, particularly in the area of fan theory.

4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Why is westeros.org the forum people look to for where theories are to be tested, picked apart and to see how they make narrative and thematic sense?

Westeros' format encourages better, deeper discussions. For example, Reddit allows people to down vote people's opinions. When there are enough down votes, that opinion will be hidden and sent to the bottom of a list that sends the most popular to the top. This method inculcates groupthink, not genuine discussion. Westeros on the other hand leaves unpopular opinions in the discussion. This doesn't mean groupthink doesn't happen here, but the format does leave an opening for deeper discussion. I think that is why Westeros has developed a better reputation than most fan sites.

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM's answer to the very specific question which was asked does very strongly suggest that they are not geographically connected

Well, what he said was

Quote

Our dreams are not always literal.

This doesn't seem to say anything about Lyanna's location to me, because there are many ways in which that dream might not have been literal besides that.  For instance, in real life, there are no storms of rose petals, and the sky is never streaked with blood, yet both are found in that fever dream.

Or perhaps GRRM meant that Ned's dialogue wasn't literally as rendered (because, for instance, in real life, he mentioned his sister, which he never did in canon).  

4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org?

They can be as far as I'm concerned.  However, the Youtube theories on this subject I've seen routinely take liberties with the established facts and timeline that make them lesser authorities.  

For instance, Preston Jacobs basically just handwaves away timeline issues by claiming the timeline doesn't make sense.   I'm pretty sure it does make sense, and any good theory of Jon's parentage will fit, and so will the one GRRM eventually reveals, whether it's RLJ or not.

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On February 13, 2018 at 8:31 AM, manchester_babe said:

Why do book readers h8 R+L+J?

I don't hate the R=L=J idea. I love it actually. It means a House Targagryen restoration is going to happen and the this is the only pure line of chosen people that can save Westeros and rebuild it. Sorry but I did not have a chance to read every post in this thread so far, but I hope this one answer gives a better idea that not all book readers hate this idea. And I do not watch the show. I hate it actually. 

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On 2/17/2018 at 5:37 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

There is an ssm somewhere that talks about “careful readers” which I find insulting considering that I had to make a cheat sheet for the multiple characters & their nicknames. Martin’s writing style is in my opinion ambiguous to say the least. There is another ssm out there somewhere that suggests a reader cracked open Jon’s parentage early on.

Wait seriously? Who was on that cheat sheet?

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On 2/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Wait seriously? Who was on that cheat sheet?

The Umbers and the Shaveplate to name a few. AND I really got confused with Jhaqo and Jhogo. :blushing:

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54 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Umbers and the Shaveplate to name a few. AND I really got confused with Jhaqo and Jhogo. :blushing:

I have a cheat sheet too. I still can't keep the Kettleblacks straight or Little and Big Walder. I've given up on that.

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On 2/19/2018 at 2:44 PM, Sea Dragon said:

I don't hate the R=L=J idea.

Rhaegar is secretly Lyanna who is secretly Jon?! WOW!  :o There's a theory! :D 

Teasing aside, I'm with you. I love the theory. And not the show.

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Cause they are theory snobs.  R + L = J is the reality, but folks who hate on it want to go against the grain.  It makes zero sense, cause there's literally no evidence to back up any other theories.

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3 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

Cause they are theory snobs.  R + L = J is the reality, but folks who hate on it want to go against the grain.  It makes zero sense, cause there's literally no evidence to back up any other theories.

 

Well I guess you have read more books than us then...

Posts like this and people like you is why a lot of people don't like the discussion of the theory, unrelated to their believe in it or not. It is not set in stone (yet).

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