Pet-Peeves in Novels?

[kuenjato]

48 minutes ago, Nabarg said:

Regarding Kuenjatos list: criticism of Erikson and Hobb is wrong (since they are both awesome), but the list may be valid regarding others. Actually, point 6 is wrong regarding Williams at least regarding MST ( the content that s propably considered padding is not that, anymore than the poems of LOTHR is).

MST is fine. Williams started to go overboard with Otherland, and I could barely get through his latest doorstopper.

Erikson had cannibal rape long before Bakker, and his world is completely unbelievable / cartoonish, especially with the latest iteration of ultrapower badass entering the stage every other chapter or so. He tries the Hobb emo stuff too and fails miserably.

I have a hard time understanding the love for R. Hobb. Everything was So. Tragic. by the end of Farseer I was rolling my eyes.  To say nothing of the narrative slog that was 90% of the third book.

[matt b]

This is kind of a small thing, and applies to movies, TV, really all forms of fiction as well, but when someone is hit on the head and is merely rendered unconscious for a narratively convenient amount of time, and then they wake up with no problems. As opposed to having the serious concussion, brain damage, and/or death that would likely result from such an impact.

[kuenjato]

43 minutes ago, matt b said:

This is kind of a small thing, and applies to movies, TV, really all forms of fiction as well, but when someone is hit on the head and is merely rendered unconscious for a narratively convenient amount of time, and then they wake up with no problems. As opposed to having the serious concussion, brain damage, and/or death that would likely result from such an impact.

That's a great one. One of the characters in Tad Williams' Otherland (paul jonas) had this happen "fade to black" so many times I suspect TW was satirizing the trope.

[aceluby]

Rape as a plot device.

Major events that 'turn' a character into some sort of super character.

Prose for the sake of prose.  If it's not driving character development or plot, it's just flowery words stroking the authors ego.

Have more, but can't think of them at the moment.

[Astromech]

Piggybacking off aceluby's first pet-peeve, rape as a characterization tool, primarily when it's employed to paint a character as evil. It's lazy. The reverse would probably be making a character an animal lover to signal they're kind or good.

I don't mind flowery prose when done right(GGK, Helprin) and actually seek it out when in the mood.

Inconsistencies in world-building or characterization. If you're going to create a world and characters for a multi-volume series especially, keep consistent.

A few with the mystery genre. Overly long red herrings. 100 pages dedicated to a dead end lead annoys me. Related is the show don't tell. Too many mysteries/noirs have a character reveal the events through a confession or the super sleuth explaining at the end. Just insert a fucking Mystery Machine. Though I admit it's usually much more common in television/film. And a writer holding his/her cards too close to the chest/being stingy with clues. Don't mention a character in passing and hide them the rest of the novel only to reveal they're the culprit after 400 pages.

A final which has nothing to do with the novel itself, fucking Assassin's Creed rip-off cover art. Seeing a cloaked figure on the cover instantly forces me to pass on a novel.

 

[Nabarg]

Kuenjato: I can understand the criticism of Eriksons characters being overpowered. However, he is not cartonish. There is a poetic and mythological depth to his characters and they burn in your mind like characters of Shakespeare or classical mythology. And the fact that compassion is the central theme of his books make them different from both Bakker and general grimdark. Although the fact that he deals with big subjects like redemption and salvation is something he has in common with Bakker. Also his language and poems are very good. 

As for Hobb, I can only say that Fitz just felt authentic. If that is emo, so be it. Interestingly, I was twentysomething when I read the Farseer, I was thirtysomething when I read the tawnyman trilogy, and I will be 50 this year, which is about Fitz age in the last trilogy, so my own age somewhat follows the age of Fitz at the time of reading. Especially the last trilogy impacted me very much, but then I am father of an autistic child, and have dealt with a mother in law with dementia, and even if that doesnt map exactly the content of the books, it may still matter for my reception of them.

As for Williams; I have not read that much after MTS, so you may very much be right.

 

[kuenjato]

8 minutes ago, Nabarg said:

Kuenjato: I can understand the criticism of Eriksons characters being overpowered. However, he is not cartonish. There is a poetic and mythological depth to his characters and they burn in your mind like characters of Shakespeare or classical mythology. And the fact that compassion is the central theme of his books make them different from both Bakker and general grimdark. Although the fact that he deals with big subjects like redemption and salvation is something he has in common with Bakker. Also his language and poems are very good. 

As for Hobb, I can only say that Fitz just felt authentic. If that is emo, so be it. Interestingly, I was twentysomething when I read the Farseer, I was thirtysomething when I read the tawnyman trilogy, and I will be 50 this year, which is about Fitz age in the last trilogy, so my own age somewhat follows the age of Fitz at the time of reading. Especially the last trilogy impacted me very much, but then I am father of an autistic child, and have dealt with a mother in law with dementia, and even if that doesnt map exactly the content of the books, it may still matter for my reception of them.

As for Williams; I have not read that much after MTS, so you may very much be right.

 

He has characters creating mountain ranges by slamming a hammer on the ground. Flying castles and dudes with glowing green ghost hands. It can get very comic booky. His world is 'epic' but it never really makes sense how civilization could develop or thrive in such a chaotic environment (granted, most fantasy worlds seriously skimp on internal development). I don't like his prose and I *really* don't like his awful pretentious poetry, so I guess we're going to have to disagree.

[Argonath Diver]

Dialogue that has little to no adverbial tags, both in very short conversations or extended ones. For instance, in my failed attempt to read Sanderson's newest release, I constantly had to re-scan awful dialogue to figure out which character said this and that. Some lines had no hint at all before them, and could have been spoken aloud by the POV character, someone else in the room, an intercom-spren, or God. Who knows.

I'm currently in an Agatha Christie binge, and her mysteries work in reverse: because dialogue is sparse, and the omniscient 3rd person veers between different characters' thoughts, nearly every line spoken is preceded with a "the General said:" 

Perhaps I need to greatly slow my reading speed, or switch to audio books (bzzzt, no thanks)

[Magnar of Skagos]

18 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

He has characters creating mountain ranges by slamming a hammer on the ground. Flying castles and dudes with glowing green ghost hands. It can get very comic booky. His world is 'epic' but it never really makes sense how civilization could develop or thrive in such a chaotic environment (granted, most fantasy worlds seriously skimp on internal development). I don't like his prose and I *really* don't like his awful pretentious poetry, so I guess we're going to have to disagree.

Erikson just seems pretentious all around, and not just in the poetry.

 

36 minutes ago, Astromech said:

A final which has nothing to do with the novel itself, fucking Assassin's Creed rip-off cover art. Seeing a cloaked figure on the cover instantly forces me to pass on a novel.

That's something I didn't like about the Name of the Wind. Felt like Rothfuss kind of shoe-horned the dracchus in at the end because it was close to the end of the book where a climax ought to go and he needed action and thought "hey, what if they see a dragon thing lol"

[Macklunkey]

If it's a children's book.

 

Written by a celebrity.

[Darth Richard II]

This thread makes me cry.

[Darth Richard II]

3 hours ago, Astromech said:

Piggybacking off aceluby's first pet-peeve, rape as a characterization tool, primarily when it's employed to paint a character as evil. It's lazy. The reverse would probably be making a character an animal lover to signal they're kind or good.

I don't mind flowery prose when done right(GGK, Helprin) and actually seek it out when in the mood.

Inconsistencies in world-building or characterization. If you're going to create a world and characters for a multi-volume series especially, keep consistent.

A few with the mystery genre. Overly long red herrings. 100 pages dedicated to a dead end lead annoys me. Related is the show don't tell. Too many mysteries/noirs have a character reveal the events through a confession or the super sleuth explaining at the end. Just insert a fucking Mystery Machine. Though I admit it's usually much more common in television/film. And a writer holding his/her cards too close to the chest/being stingy with clues. Don't mention a character in passing and hide them the rest of the novel only to reveal they're the culprit after 400 pages.

A final which has nothing to do with the novel itself, fucking Assassin's Creed rip-off cover art. Seeing a cloaked figure on the cover instantly forces me to pass on a novel.

 

There's actually been some fantastic novels with Assassins Creed rip off art lately.

[Astromech]

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

There's actually been some fantastic novels with Assassins Creed rip off art lately.

Too bad they ruin them with shitty cover art, but to be fair Assassin's Creed rip-offs haven't cornered the market on shitty cover art.

[Yukle]

I don't like sequels to stories that were standalone.

Ready Player One is getting a sequel. Why?!

[Darth Richard II]

3 minutes ago, Yukle said:

I don't like sequels to stories that were standalone.

Ready Player One is getting a sequel. Why?!

Money.

[Yukle]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Money.

I've heard of that stuff, apparently a few people have tried it. What does it taste like?

[Forest Lass]

when two characters are kissing and the author goes with the old  "their tongues battled for dominance"

[Yukle]

1 minute ago, Forest Lass said:

when two characters are kissing and the author goes with the old  "their tongues battled for dominance"

Most romantic scenes are pretty terrible. I think they're just hard to write. Sometimes it's better left to the imagination.

Not everyone can include such ingenious lines as GRRM's most amazing contribution to literature: "fat pink mast."

[Forest Lass]

22 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Most romantic scenes are pretty terrible. I think they're just hard to write. Sometimes it's better left to the imagination.

Not everyone can include such ingenious lines as GRRM's most amazing contribution to literature: "fat pink mast."

I'll never forget 'myrish swamp' either.

I agree though, romantic scenes must be difficult to write. Most are cringey to me. The first love scene I remember reading had this: "He crawled atop her slowly, like a hungry tiger on the prowl" 

 

 

[Darth Richard II]

I think a lot of these go beyond pet peeves.