Bloodraven's Spider Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 3 hours ago, sarah.jenice said: @serinsight Interesting piece and not one I've seen before. I've always leaned more toward gods not being real in story but rather certain people/groups knowing how to wield magic, which is real. To this end, I think the question of who or what resurrected him. Moqorro survived a similar situation in the sea thanks to his Red God magical skills, so that's definitely a good bet. I really hope squishers/selkies/merpeople aren't really a thing. Sorry if I missed this in the OP, but how do you suppose he ended up in Valyria under the sea? The ship went down in Shipbreaker Bay within sight of Storm's End. I like some of the Valyrian links you've made to his prophetic rambling, especially about the dragons being birds with scales but I'm not so sure about Valyria existing under the sea. Or am I misunderstanding? Valeria is currently under the sea. So everything he mentions about being under sea makes me think of Valryia. I don't think there is a another land mass in Planetos that is under the sea. Plus volantis as a civilization was created and developed by the Valryians. So that's the Valryian connection to Patchface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 Well good job. Reading Patchface I assume that the author implemented the occultist saying "As above, So below" through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 On 2/13/2018 at 8:29 PM, Ser Insight said: "The Crow, the crow, under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, oh, oh, oh." This is him speaking to jon letting him know that Winter came to Valyria. and that winter is coming again. I think you have to look at this one in context: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI Jon had expected that. The direwolf made Queen Selyse anxious, almost as much as Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun. "Ghost, stay." They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face. He is calling Jon "The crow". It's the white raven that signals winter. Jon isn't just a crow of the Night's Watch; he is the crow. There is something important about Jon that sets him apart from the other crows of the NW. Patchface refers to the land north of the wall as "under the sea" of trees. Summer under the sea refers to the cave system of the cotf; the abode of greenseers, the green sea. It's possible that Patchface is describing the white walkers when he says that the crows are white as snow. It's also possible that Jon will become the three-eyed crow and that Patchface is calling him The Crow for that reason. Bran doesn't start by naming the crow, the three eyed crow. He calls him the crow. Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran IV "I know a story about a boy who hated stories," Old Nan said with her stupid little smile, her needles moving all the while, click click click, until Bran was ready to scream at her. It would never be the way it had been, he knew. The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. A Game of Thrones - Bran VI "There are some who call my order the knights of the mind," Luwin replied. "You are a surpassing clever boy when you work at it, Bran. Have you ever thought that you might wear a maester's chain? There is no limit to what you might learn." "I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly." A Game of Thrones - Bran VII "Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart." The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad." Bran also complains that the crow lied to him. Then Old Nan confirms that all crows are liars, but she isn't talking about crows but men of the Night's Watch. Quote A Clash of Kings - Jon I "I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell." Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it." Mormont confirms that all crows are liars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Spider Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 2 hours ago, LynnS said: I think you have to look at this one in context: He is calling Jon "The crow". It's the white raven that signals winter. Jon isn't just a crow of the Night's Watch; he is the crow. There is something important about Jon that sets him apart from the other crows of the NW. Patchface refers to the land north of the wall as "under the sea" of trees. Summer under the sea refers to the cave system of the cotf; the abode of greenseers, the green sea. It's possible that Patchface is describing the white walkers when he says that the crows are white as snow. It's also possible that Jon will become the three-eyed crow and that Patchface is calling him The Crow for that reason. Bran doesn't start by naming the crow, the three eyed crow. He calls him the crow. Bran also complains that the crow lied to him. Then Old Nan confirms that all crows are liars, but she isn't talked about crows but men of the Night's Watch. Mormont confirms that all crows are liars. Could very well be right! Only a time will tell the truth about patchface and his knowledge. He could be referring to the Others as you said. The nights king was a crow after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On February 14, 2018 at 11:48 AM, John Suburbs said: f the Faceless Men are to be believed, then the Red God and the Drowned God are merely aspects of the God of Many Faces, so PF could be a vassal for all the gods. Perhaps that's why Melisandre hasn't acted against him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Perhaps that's why Melisandre hasn't acted against him? Mayhaps, but from what she's revealed of her visions regarding him, it isn't clear whether Patchface himself is the danger or that danger surrounds him in some way. So from that perspective, it might be that acting against him will either be irrelevant to, or might instigate, whatever danger he is associated with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 2:48 PM, John Suburbs said: "There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ... Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that presents the difficulties." The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Nice. Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII Jon smiled. "Some had best not say so in my presence." A sudden gust of wind set Edd's cloak to flapping noisily. "Best go down, m'lord. This wind's like to push us off the Wall, and I never did learn the knack of flying." They rode the winch lift back to the ground. The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy. The heavy cage was swaying. From time to time it scraped against the Wall, starting small crystalline showers of ice that sparkled in the sunlight as they fell, like shards of broken glass. Luckily for Bran, he is 'not made of clay...' Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran II Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed. There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. None of them had ever shown the slightest bit of interest in pecking out his eyes. Later, Maester Luwin built a little pottery boy and dressed him in Bran's clothes and flung him off the wall into the yard below, to demonstrate what would happen to Bran if he fell. That had been fun, but afterward Bran just looked at the maester and said, "I'm not made of clay. And anyhow, I never fall." Then for a while the guards would chase him whenever they saw him on the roofs, and try to haul him down. That was the best time of all. It was like playing a game with his brothers, except that Bran always won. None of the guards could climb half so well as Bran, not even Jory. Most of the time they never saw him anyway. People never looked up. That was another thing he liked about climbing; it was almost like being invisible. A Game of Thrones - Bran III Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall. Maester Luwin made a little boy of clay, baked him till he was hard and brittle, dressed him in Bran's clothes, and flung him off a roof. Bran remembered the way he shattered. "But I never fall," he said, falling. The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground. On 2/14/2018 at 2:17 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said: @Ser Insight this has been the most concise, well organized, and thoroughly consistent explanation I have ever read about Patchface's prophetic seeming statements. Well done! Really? I thought I did pretty good...(well, maybe not quite as 'concise'...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Lovejoy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, ravenous reader said: Really? I thought I did pretty good...(well, maybe not quite as 'concise'...) I'll have to check it out! Though knowing your threads, yeah, concise may not fit (but detailed and well thought out will!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 1:31 PM, LynnS said: Flying is controlled falling. "Falling with style." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 "The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord." Prologue, Clash Others, shadow assassins, dragons, or something else that goes bump in the night. Take your pick. This one is my favorite: The first time we hear about Azor Ahai, Patchface adds a little color commentary... "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire aburning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!" Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. ... Behind, Davos heard a faint clank and clatter of bells. "Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Davos I, Clash 10 What the f#&!, Patches? Why did The George stick that in there? Not a lot of folks here have tried to answer that question. Before the full title of the The Princess and the Queen was released, the best explanation I read was that it was a foreshadowing of Tyrion's wildfire on the Blackwater. Then, in late 2013, we learned the full title of the Dance of the Dragons novella: The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." Arianne I, Winds Aegon was the leader of the greens in the first Dance of Dragons, so it stands to reason that our Aegon, assuming he will "dance" with Daenerys, can be associated with green. And, well, um... the babe was the leader of the blacks, right? So it stands to reason that our babe, the hot chick on the black dragon, can be associated with black. If you search a bit, you'll find all kinds of green and black contrasts and combinations throughout ASOIAF. Perhaps it's nothing more than coincidence, but I highly doubt that. There was a reason for all those green and black color references. Oh, and we already knew about Jon being the blue flower, right? A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. Dig this... As Daenerys enters Qarth, she passes under an arch of green, black, and blue snakes... All the colors that had been missing from Vaes Tolorro had found their way to Qarth; buildings crowded about her fantastical as a fever dream in shades of rose, violet, and umber. She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakesmating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. Slim towers stood taller than any Dany had ever seen, and elaborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. Daenerys II, Clash Notice that she observes fountains wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. The griffin and dragon allusions are easy, of course, Jon Connington and Aegon. But the manticore allusion is much more elusive. In case you dont know, the manticore is a chimera, a fantastical beast comprised of the body parts of more than one animal or other mythical beast. The manticore most commonly consisted of a human head, a lions body, a bats wings, and a scorpions tail, but there were other variations. In ASOIAF, the manticore was much smaller, with a malign, black face and an arched, venomous tail, with the ability to fold itself into a scarab. In the real world, the manticore and chimeras were depicted in the art of the Romanesque and Renaissance periods to symbolize fraud. So, we have Jon Connington, Aegon, and fraud. Fool's blood. King's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye. Davos II, Storm 10 This foreshadows the red wedding. Aegon Frey, called Jinglebell, was killed, as was King Robb. Edmure bedded his bride, the maiden Roslyn, and the guests that survived were imprisoned along with Edmure the bridegroom. Is it possible that the fate of Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale foreshadows the fate of Melisandre? Melisandre is loved by only a few... The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and ... worst sin of all ... that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same. Davos V, Storm 54 Here's what happened to the Lace Serpent... "In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. ... The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. ... ... "Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her." Brienne II, Feast 9 I suppose being burned alive would be a fitting end for Melisandre. At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons. "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh." Davos V, Storm 54 Under the sea is a metaphor for death. Melisandre is old... ... Strange voices called to her from days long past. ... ... Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. Melisandre, Dance 31 Shireen is young... Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known. Prologue, Clash Melisandre wants king’s blood... Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy." ... ... He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie." ... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom." "He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone." Davos VI, Storm 63 She can't have Edric, but Shireen has king’s blood, and Shireen is a dead girl... "If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne." "Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms." "The maesters say greyscale is not—" "The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean! " "She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—" "I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl." Melisandre is going to burn Shireen with Selyse’s blessing, since they will both be desperate having seen Jon Snow betrayed and wounded or dead, and having come to believe that Ramsay has defeated and killed Stannis. And the old fish will eat the young fish. Poor Shireen. If so, Stannis is gonna be pissed. In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh. Jon IX, Dance 44 That's gotta be the Others, right? The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. Jon XI, Dance 53 And that's gotta be Bloodraven, right? If you care to know my thoughts about "Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs," follow this. "Lord Snow, who will lead this ranging?" ... "I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh." This foreshadows Stannis's ruse at Winterfell, and his alliance with House Manderly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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