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Varysblackfyre321

Is Ned Stark really that honorble?

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Brandon son of Rickard isn't that honorable. You can ask Barbrey Ryswell about that.

Barbey loved Brandon. He may have taken her maidenhead without marrying her but from her words he had planned to marry her-it's only due to Rickard having arranged a marriage between Brandon and Caitlyn that he couldn't. Besides, it's different for males; premarital sex for them isn't a dishonor.

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't think that's true. Like where are you getting this idea before Ned the Starks(having justly ruled for thousands of years and have been played more than competent  lord paramounts of the north since), didn't have a reputation of being honorable?

And it kinda is. All he really has to do is be remotely competent at his job and not uber corrupt as well and BOOM the guy's honor is unquestionably sound.

Reputation isn't everything.

 

The Starks and Boltons were harassing the Three Sisters and the Vale for like hundreds of years. Where's the honor in that? There were different times for every House.

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Ned Stark, from what we know up to the fifth book, is a mostly honorable man.  Up to a point.  We have to keep in mind that he allowed an innocent man, Rhaegar Targaryen, to be smeared by a lie because it allowed the Starks to keep their appearance of honor.  When what most probably happened is the prince trying to help and shelter a runaway troubled girl who wanted to avoid marrying a womanizer like Robert.

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18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

More a servent: none of his male heirs are legal adults yet so he's given the task of governing winterfell in his absence. 

Wait, what? Please back this up with some kind of quote as there is no indication that Ned leaves a servant as ruler of the North. 

"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. 

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A person can't both be the master and partner of someone. A partner requires some notion of equal footing. 

That is not really true.  Have you never heard of jnr partners in law firms? The idea that all partnerships are equal is clearly not the case. A marriage, even a medieval marriage, is of two partners even if one partner has more power than the other. 

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His oaths to his wife doesn't not cover from trying to absolve of any cupabilty from her possibly unlawful actions.

It does cover him protecting his wife and his family. 

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Not really.

lol how is that for you to decide? A person has free will, they get to decide which oaths have more meaning to them. 

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In the context of his society his king, the law, his oaths to the gods to serve Robert triumph over any paternal obligation he may feel to his family. If Jorah had came back to Westeroes the old bear wouldn't try to protect his son from lawful punishment; just the opposite he'd actively urge his son to turn himself in and if need be arrest him. 

You are talking what, in theory, the king would want from him. That is not what dictates a persons honour, every person have their own ideas and thoughts on who they should honour more. It is an entirely subjective question, so the idea that you are treating this like there is a wrong and right answer is ridiculous and misses the point of Jaime's speech about his vows and his oaths.

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.

Either Ned sells his own wife out for the King or he tries to protect her and lies he is dishonouring one. And there is nowhere in the series were it is stated that Ned takes his honours to Robert more seriously than he takes his honour to his family. 

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Honor is a useless word. It's one of those things that can vary from person to person society to society. I'm not saying your interpretation of what is honor is wrong; either doubtful everyone would agree with it or go completely against it.

So I'm not sure your point here. You accept that it is a subjective word, that Ned may have a different undertanding to it than you and might find his oaths to his family more important than to his King. 

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I'm just saying in Ned's society what he has actually done doesn't show him to be exceptionally honorble by its standards. 

So how on earth had he earned this great reputation in the series? 

Which Lords deserve to have Ned's reputation?

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How about their word on the matter on who Ned's honor is all together worthless? 

Sorry, I don't know what you are trying to say here. Jorah clearly knows Ned Stark better than Dany does. He is a better judge of Ned's character than she is. Is this really something that needs pointing out?

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He shouldn't be used a point of reference for whoever is honorble-the man is utterly bereft of it so his opinion means very little.

Fucking hell dude, I gave three points of reference of three men who don't like Ned, three men who are not biased in his favour. I could have used others. 

Both friends and enemies agree that Ned was an honourable man. Why do you think so many people think of him as such?

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Torturing Tommen was a bluff to which Tyrion wouldn't have followed through.

Nope, you are wrong on this. He was prepared to do it, it was only Cersei taking her son back under her control that made Tyrion's threat impotent. 

In his carelessness, he had never thought what the role might cost her. "I promised my sister I would treat Tommen as she treated Alayaya," he remembered aloud. He felt as though he might retch. "How can I scourge an eight-year-old boy?" But if I don't, Cersei wins.
"You don't have Tommen," Bronn said bluntly. "Once she learned that Ironhand was dead, the queen sent the Kettleblacks after him, and no one at Rosby had the balls to say them nay."
Another blow; yet a relief as well, he must admit it.
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He threatens Lancel sure to get the boy as a spy on Cersi. Which he needed.

How does that change what he did? He threatened to kill his own nephew over politics.

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And can't fault him for wanting to marry Cersi the rape however if he is serious is a step too far to be sure.

I actually can. Why is so much of his ire and hatred forced on Cersei? At that point Tyrion has killer her father, took credit for the death of her son, sent her daughter to Dorne and still he wants to kill and rape her?

" My tongue, if she does not. I will lead her armies or rub her feet, as she desires. And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister."

This is pure villain talk right here. Immaterial if Cersei herself is a villain, when you start wanting to rape and then kill your own sister you have officially crossed the line. 

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He mulled over the idea of trying to place Mycerlla on throne; realized it was a bad idea that was doomed for failure.

In ASOS, he once again fantasies about it in ADWD. 

 Tyrion would sooner have gone to Dorne. Myrcella is older than Tommen, by Dornish law the Iron Throne is hers. I will help her claim her rights, as Prince Oberyn suggested.
Oberyn was dead, though, his head smashed to bloody ruin by the armored fist of Ser Gregor Clegane. And without the Red Viper to urge him on, would Doran Martell even consider such a chancy scheme? 
 
Tommen and Myrcella have done fuck all to him, yet he'd have them go to war with each other, which would more than likely result in one of their deaths, all for revenge against Cersei. 
 
Again, this is pure villainous talk from Tyrion. 
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Are you talking about the slave he had sex with?

Yes. He the slave he raped. 

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 And Symon. I can't justify that. It was on Tyrion he could have either paid the man and sent Shae away as to not be a liability or murder him. He chose wrong.

Well of course he did. 

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The whole rumble to which Cersi had tried to get Robert to debut in? 

The one she told him not to fight in?

What exactly is that evidence of? Please tell me what you would have had Ned say to Robert?

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Well Renly and Mace as well as Tywin care not for honor to begin with; they are exceptionally low in the amount they are willing to disregard it.

The same can be said for much of Westeros' nobility. Ned, by their standards is an honourable man, this is reflected in the reputation he has amongst the people of the realm. 

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Balon? How is not honorble given his culture's standards

He swore an oath to Robert (after the Greyjoy Rebellion) and betrayed it. He started prepping for war against the North while his son was still a hostage.

Balon's not more honourable than Ned. The only reason this is even a debate is because we have been in Ned's head, seen the few times he has lied. I can only imagine what we would learn being in other men's heads. 

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Bolton certainly. I wager the rest is debatable. 

Debate ahead. 

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And Asha, Sam, and Kevan and Barristan? where are you getting they're lower than Ned?

Barristan has gone from Targ to Baratheon back to Targ. 

Sam has had sex and fixed the Night's Watch election. 

Kevan was Tywin's no2 for much of his life. Two of my favorite characters, but they are not honourable men. 

Asha, like her father, rebelled against the Crown, she then rebelled against Euron and her new husband. Another favourite of mine, but she is not honourable. 

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

By being a Stark and being respectful enough to the lords he's conducted buisness with as well not be blantantly corrupt(not that anyone in the north could buy him off if he could be bought off)? 

Being a Stark does not automatically make you Honourable. Nowhere in the books is it stated Starks are more honourable than any other House (the Arryns are), so why would Ned be seen as this honourable person?

 

1 hour ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Ned Stark, from what we know up to the fifth book, is a mostly honorable man.  Up to a point.  We have to keep in mind that he allowed an innocent man, Rhaegar Targaryen, to be smeared by a lie because it allowed the Starks to keep their appearance of honor.  

How was it a smear? In their society, whether the 15 year old Lyanna went willingly or not, whether she consented to have sex or not, it would still be seen as abduction and rape as her family had not given Rhaegar permission to do so. 

By the customs of their society Rhaegar is a kidnapper and rapist. 

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19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The one she told him not to fight in?

What exactly is that evidence of? Please tell me what you would have had Ned say to Robert?

I didn't say it was solid evidence; I said having known there was already at least one prior plot to murder the king made it Ned's imperative to try to alert the king as soon as possible that his life is under threat.

And surely not give the person who had committed the treason a heads up even if Ned was still investigating 

And even when Robert and Renly did come he did not do his duty and try to inform either of what he found; understandble given Ned's love for Robert but still he allowed his affections towards his friend to override his duty his king and the monarchy. 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Being a Stark does not automatically make you Honourable. Nowhere in the books is it stated Starks are more honourable than any other House (the Arryns are), so why would Ned be seen as this honourable person?

Being a Stark does not make you more honorble. But family reputation does impact the way people expect to see it's individual members: and the Starks happen to have a good especially in regards to the north. Ned as lord paramount was fair and did his job competently as well show proper respect to those around him. Thus people(rightfully) saw him as honorble.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The same can be said for much of Westeros' nobility. Ned, by their standards is an honourable man, this is reflected in the reputation he has amongst the people of the real

 Depending on who you really ask no? If you don't buy into the "twincest" theory proposed by Stannis and don't support the crown he is a man who'd try to usurp his best friend's children throne on the eve of his friend's death.

To be clear I'm not arguing Ned is without honor; I'm just saying what we've seen of him doesn't necessarily highlight this of him being the ideal of it some in the book and many in the fandom posit.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I actually can. Why is so much of his ire and hatred forced on Cersei? At that point Tyrion has killer her father, took credit for the death of her son, sent her daughter to Dorne and still he wants to kill and rape her?

" My tongue, if she does not. I will lead her armies or rub her feet, as she desires. And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister."

This is pure villain talk right here. Immaterial if Cersei herself is a villain, when you start wanting to rape and then kill your own sister you have officially crossed the line. 

She tried to genitially mutilate him as an infant, tortured a woman she had thought was his woman and tried to off him at least once.

Wanting to kill her I cannot blame him.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does that change what he did? He threatened to kill his own nephew over politics.

 He's trying to prepare the city for war; he cannot allow Cersi to jeopardize everything so yes he has someone keep a close eye on her albeit reluctantly. To be clear, Lancel is guilty. He had helped murder the king and fornicate with the queen Tyrion was using that bit of information to get the boy's service to be a spy.

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nope, you are wrong on this. He was prepared to do it, it was only Cersei taking her son back under her control that made Tyrion's threat impotent. 

 

He was not prepared to do it; he realized he'd have to else Cersi would never take his threats seriously again but clearly was not prepared to torture the boy; hench asking how he could bring himself to do such a thing and feeling relieved when he learns Tommen isn't in his custody anymore. He is genuily hurt that Cersi and his father thought he would hurt the boy. 

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't know what know what you are trying to say here. Jorah clearly knows Ned Stark better than Dany does. He is a better judge of Ned's character than she is. Is this really something that needs pointing out?

I'm saying a character's or characters' stated on another is not in itself proof of the character really being that way. Jaime views Ned as cold while Brandon was hot. Jaimie's assement of the man wasn't really accurate given the tidal wave of emotion Ned displays often throughout AGOT, the raw unfettered rage he lets loose when pushed(ex.getting ready to murder or savagely beat little finger as a result of thinking LF was playing a joke on him). We don't know Jorah's interactions with Ned outside of Ned having to tried to arrest Jorah for selling people into slavery.  

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Fucking hell dude, I gave three points of reference of three men who don't like Ned, three men who are not biased in his favour. I could have used others. 

Both friends and enemies agree that Ned was an honourable man. Why do you think so many people think of him as such?

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A honorable man that is not something I denied. Yes, you can cite others of friends and enemies showing respect for it. Not everyone mind you, Joffery and many of those who see him as Robert's lawful heir would be at least dubious of the notion of a man who'd try to steal his best friend's throne-not knowing the context and full details for Ned did. The people you've listed are not biased in his favor but besides little finger they do not know the full extent of Ned's actions.  What has Ned done(that we know of), to show he's exceptional in regards to honor?

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. He the slave he raped. 

Well yes, as a freedman he can't really have consensual sex with a slave that's being offered by his or her master.  Certainly one of the darker moments in Tyrion's tale. 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So I'm not sure your point here. You accept that it is a subjective word, that Ned may have a different undertanding to it than you and might find his oaths to his family more important than to his King. 

I'm saying what his society has laid as honorble behavior Ned Stark conforms to it to a reasonable degree-not exceptionally less than others or more. He swore no oaths to his family that stipulate having to protect them from all legal punishment if they had broken the law even if it means lying to a king. 

He finds protecting his loved ones whether they have done right or wrong from the law more important than honoring his actual oaths to his monarch and to the gods. 

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Either Ned sells his own wife out for the King or he tries to protect her and lies he is dishonouring one. And there is nowhere in the series were it is stated that Ned takes his honours to Robert more seriously than he takes his honour to his family. 

 

Ned had promised to be one with Caitlyn; not protect her from lawful punishment for whatever acts she'd committed. The honorble thing in this instance in the framework of the society he lives in and on the oaths he swore to Robert is to be fully transparent and ask  if it is possible to bear some of the punishment for his wife's misdeeds for she is his responsibility as well.

He did not do that. 

Because he loves his wife and family more and that love would triumph in terms of doing what would be honorble in his society whenever there is a dilemma.

And I respect that quite frankly.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Wait, what? Please back this up with some kind of quote as there is no indication that Ned leaves a servant as ruler of the North. 

"Yes," Ned said, in words that would brook no argument. "You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. 

Quotes of what exactly? That Westeroes is a patriarchy that expects subservient behavior from wives to husbands? And, the quote you've provided show Ned relaying a task on to Caitlyn. And a big one. That does not mean they're partners. 

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not really true.  Have you never heard of jnr partners in law firms? The idea that all partnerships are equal is clearly not the case. A marriage, even a medieval marriage, is of two partners even if one partner has more power than the other. 

The idea of partners is for people to come together for one goal;  servicing Ned in whatever he dictates. If Ned is the master of their relationship she must be his servent else how could he be master.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Barristan has gone from Targ to Baratheon back to Targ. 

Sam has had sex and fixed the Night's Watch election. 

Kevan was Tywin's no2 for much of his life. Two of my favorite characters, but they are not honourable men. 

Nothing explicity stated on whether a brother can or cannot have sex; just that he can't father any children or have any wives. And there is no evidence of Sam having rigged the election; he did some poltiking to get Jon the support from enough key figures in the watch to get Jon enough votes.Tywin is Kevan's older brother. He must obey him and where never given privy to if Tywin had ever specifically used him to do anything dishonorable or crimnal.

Baristan has gone to Targ to baratheons dismissed by the Baratheons and went back to the Targs true.

He by all reason pertaining to honor should have never left them; but he like Ned is seen a paragon of honor by both friend and foe alike.

The reputation he has clearly isn't entirely justified. 

I don't see how this however puts on the lower emd of the totem poll in terms of honor.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Asha, like her father, rebelled against the Crown, she then rebelled against Euron and her new husband. Another favourite of mine, but she is not honourable. 

On February 14, 2018 at 0:36 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh. Sure. 

 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

alon's not more honourable than Ned. The only reason this is even a debate is because we have been in Ned's head, seen the few times he has lied. I can only imagine what we would learn being in other men's heads. 

I did not say he was more honorble; I questioned this idea of him having no honor.

I find him to be honorble  in regards to the context of his society; the Ironborn. 

Renly and Mance had tried to usurp their nephews throne with no justification other than "might makes right". This is exceptionally dishonorable in their society. 

We've plenty of lords act far better interms if honor; and those who've acted far worse. 

Ned in my opinion isn't really unique in any regard.

Hes honorble to a reasonable extent.   

Before this continues: first I'd like to say I'm having a fun time debating this and I respect your use of logic to make your case even if I don't agree with every point; hopefully we can keep this civil.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Debate ahead. 

Weird I could have sworn I saw Glover in your lists. This isn't an accusation against you. I clearly was mistaken. Anyway  Well lord Umber I concede that, lady Dustin planned on keeping Ned Stark's bones from being buried with his anchestores. Manderly is working to put a Stark back in the place of govenoring winterfel as well as assist a person with an actual claim to throne get it. Lady Dustin has planned to insure Ned's bones not be placed with his anchestores. A huge disrespect but I'm hesitant to say this makes her out and out dishonorable.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How was it a smear? In their society, whether the 15 year old Lyanna went willingly or not, whether she consented to have sex or not, it would still be seen as abduction and rape as her family had not given Rhaegar permission to do so. 

By the customs of their society Rhaegar is a kidnapper and rapist. 

This...sounds reasonable to a degree. Westeroes is a patriarchy after all.  Lyanna  was at this point a minor and female to great house ; she can not be taken away by any man without her patriarch's permission.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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13 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

The Starks and Boltons were harassing the Three Sisters and the Vale for like hundreds of years. Where's the honor in that? There were different times for every House.

No one mentioned the Boltons. There were wars waged between the two kingdoms on who should control what. But that in it of itself isn't seen as dishonorable. Wars over territory are not frowned upon. In fact it is glorious. Great conquerors such as Aegon are often still honored and viewed as honorble men even by those they conquered. The Starks are by no means monolithic; the first night would disgust Ned and I'm sure he'd like my abolish if he were king; but his many of forefathers saw nothing wrong with the custom. 

But a family's reputation do influence how people see even just the individuals of that house.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No one mentioned the Boltons.

OK then, the Starks were harassing the Three Sisters for centuries for a no good reason. Things which were supposedly done there surely are not actions Ned would commit or approve.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

OK then, the Starks were harassing the Three Sisters for centuries for a no good reason. Things which were supposedly done there surely are not actions Ned would commit or approve.

I already said the Starks aren't exactly the same in my previous post: 

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

. The Starks are by no means monolithic; the first night would disgust Ned and I'm sure he'd like my abolish if he were king; but his many of forefathers saw nothing wrong with the custom. 

But a family's reputation do influence how people see even just the individuals of that house.

 

You questioned the honor in their actions; there is plenty; wars over territory were not frowned upon. 

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17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I already said the Starks aren't exactly the same in my previous post: 

You questioned the honor in their actions; there is plenty; wars over territory were not frowned upon. 

Well, I can't help but think that atrocities done there do not look like honorable deeds. We can always agree to disagree.

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On 2/13/2018 at 8:33 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Note- what is honor in a feudal society is not synonymous with moral-especially our modern sense of it.

Tyrion isn't really honorble-but far be it me to say he is not moral. 

This has been discussed before in other threads:

Still I kinda wanted to share my thoughts and continue the discussion because I don't think it's one talked about enough:

I don't see Ned having particularly honorble given his social context.

Like, every major dilemma to which doing the honorble comes at the cost of what Ned personally feels is the right thing or looks to be something that looks to be a really bad idea(mostly for him or his loved ones) the majority of the time he buckled. For instance supporting Robert's skipping the line of succession while a male heir is still around-which would be a clear violation of the line of succession-keeping (if R+L=J is true), in total obliviousness of his true heritage and his potential rights to the throne(of course to protect the boy)-giving Cersi aheads up to flee with her abominations(after trying to murder the king and have planned to place her abominations shedon the thone).  Hell I wager if he'd been in the king's guard he would have slit  Aery's throat half-way in to Jaimie's tenure from the amount of evil stuff he'd seen-not because that is the "honorble" thing to do but because it would seem the right thing to do. 

I feel Ned was able to enjoy a reputation of being really honorble well because he didn't have to work especially hard to get it-being a Stark he'd be thought to be at the height of honor so it's easy to play it so long as he did not do anything especially bad-shake some lords hands here or there pay the proper respect and that's all there is to it. He isn't particularly ambitious(he's content with his place lord paramount) to which merely being normal  makes him great.

People who know only that reputation will take it as a given he is exceptionally honorble; hell even Jorah bought into it; though he was a slaver and he did bankrupt his house for his trophy wife -so what is honorble to him doesn't amount  for much

Hell  Ned  even for his reasons for why he cannot go along with Baelish's plan is less to do with as more of pride(not particularly worse or better imo), the Laninsters had tried to murder one of his boys, they took his dear friend, Ned will not settle for this ruse with that knowledge.

 

His downfall was because he had made some critical strategic blusters, took potentially worthwhile risks that didn't pay off and ultimately took a risk that didn't need to be taken (giving Cersi a heads up).

Giving heads up to Cersi(though it kinda seems pointless and partially a way to ease Ned's guilt given he should know Robert once he finds out this news will start a genocide on House Laninster and there won't be a place where Cersi and her children could hide).  He did something that corresponded with his own sense morality but failed to plan accordingly to ensure it doesn't backfire or recognize doing it would back. Which I really think is an example of a reoccurring sin.

 

I find it hard to dislike Ned despite my dislike for the Starks.  What he did to warn Cersei seemed the moral thing to do, on the surface.  It will save Cersei's children for a time but the resulting war will kill many other children.  Tywin will defend his family.  Ned failed to look at the big picture.  Maybe he needed to keep his mouth shut, like Varys would counsel.  The fact is, nobody liked the alternative, Stannis.  It's a question of who inherits, somebody wildly unpopular or somebody who has no right to rule.  

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Well, I can't help but think that atrocities done there do not look like honorable deeds. We can always agree to disagree.

What atrocities are you referring to? The "rape of the sisters" if so the sister men were being very hyperbolic on what happened then and no one else backs their claims up.

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4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I find it hard to dislike Ned despite my dislike for the Starks.  What he did to warn Cersei seemed the moral thing to do, on the surface.  It will save Cersei's children for a time but the resulting war will kill many other children.  Tywin will defend his family.  Ned failed to look at the big picture.  Maybe he needed to keep his mouth shut, like Varys would counsel.  The fact is, nobody liked the alternative, Stannis.  It's a question of who inherits, somebody wildly unpopular or somebody who has no right to rule.  

Cersi has already tried to kill Robert before-she'd planned to again(and did)-keeping his mouth shut will ultimately delay the war but it will not prevent it-Stannis will raise his banners, Renly will raise his, and Balon continue his plan for the north. And Cersi, was bullshiting when she said he could let it go-she'd never allow such a man who never her secret to walk off into the sunset good and healthy.  I have mixed feelings on what he tried to do with Cersi; yes I think what he had tried to was largely in part because he doesn't want to see Robert go berserk and kill children-but a small part of it I also feel may be purely for Ned's sake-he's not a stupid man-he knows Robert will find Cersi and her children and destroy them along with the rest of house Laninster for having made him a cuck-warning her gives Ned a way to say he'd at least tried to lessen the bloodshed.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

warning her gives Ned a way to say he'd at least tried to lessen the bloodshed.

I don't always agree with you but this made me smile.  Like this  :)

Ned thinks of himself as an honorable man; therefore, he always tries to act in such a manner that supports his own view of the self.  He does what he does because he wants to act consistently with how he sees himself.   

Sure it is partly due to genuine feelings of compassion.  I don't want to take that away from him.  Ned is acting like a human.  A good human with compassion but also a human with a lot of pride.

Edited by Agent Orange

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18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This...sounds reasonable to a degree. 

It was the fact for many European medieval countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape

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In some cultures, rape was seen less as a crime against a particular girl or woman than as a crime against the head of the household or against chastity. As a consequence, the rape of a virgin was often a more serious crime than of a non-virgin, even a wife or widow, and the rape of a prostitute or other unchaste woman was, in some laws, not a crime because her chastity could not be harmed. Furthermore, the woman's consent was under many legal systems not a defense. In seventeenth-century France, even marriage without parental consent was classified as rape

In fact our own definitions of what rape is would be hugely different to how it was viewed even less than a century ago. The feminist movement of the 20th century did excellent work on that front. 

 

19 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I didn't say it was solid evidence;

It is no evidence at all. 

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I said having known there was already at least one prior plot to murder the king made it Ned's imperative to try to alert the king as soon as possible that his life is under threat.

Ned does not know of such a plot. He knows the Queen told the King not to look like an idiot and fight in a brawl. That is not a plot that any reasonable person would likely believe. 

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And surely not give the person who had committed the treason a heads up even if Ned was still investigating 

True. I never claimed Ned was smart, but there is even honour in that action as he was hoping that would spare needless bloodshed. 

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And even when Robert and Renly did come he did not do his duty and try to inform either of what he found; understandble given Ned's love for Robert but still he allowed his affections towards his friend to override his duty his king and the monarchy. 

So one day. 

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Being a Stark does not make you more honorble. But family reputation does impact the way people expect to see it's individual members: and the Starks happen to have a good especially in regards to the north. Ned as lord paramount was fair and did his job competently as well show proper respect to those around him. Thus people(rightfully) saw him as honorble.

Agreed. His reputation was, for the most part, deserved. Few other Lords, Arryn and Rowan spring to mind, have such an honourable reputation as Ned did throughout the realm. 

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 Depending on who you really ask no? If you don't buy into the "twincest" theory proposed by Stannis and don't support the crown he is a man who'd try to usurp his best friend's children throne on the eve of his friend's death.

I don't know what this is trying to argue? Have we seen many people change their opinions on Ned in his death?

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To be clear I'm not arguing Ned is without honor; I'm just saying what we've seen of him doesn't necessarily highlight this of him being the ideal of it some in the book and many in the fandom posit.

And to be clear, I have not once argued that he is some living embodiment of Honour, he's not, but he is an honourable man in comparison to the majority of people we have seen in the series. He is honourable by Westeros' standards. 

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She tried to genitially mutilate him as an infant, tortured a woman she had thought was his woman and tried to off him at least once.

And he has still done worse to she than she to him. He has poisoned her, sent her daughter away to serve as a hostage, killer her father and threatened the lives of both her sons, taking credit for the death of her oldest. 

In fact in the opening book it is Tyrion who confesses that he has wished Cersei's death while at the same time in Kings Landing Cersei was actively trying to save his. 

Neither come out of this looking good, but Tyrion had caused more harm and damage to Cersei than vice versa. 

 

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 He's trying to prepare the city for war; he cannot allow Cersi to jeopardize everything so yes he has someone keep a close eye on her albeit reluctantly.

You know, he could have just trusted her rather than start off thinking of her as the enemy. 

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To be clear, Lancel is guilty. He had helped murder the king and fornicate with the queen Tyrion was using that bit of information to get the boy's service to be a spy.

And? Does it make it any less of a shit thing to do? To threaten to kill your teenage cousin?

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He was not prepared to do it;

He was, what I quoted is pretty clear. he felt releived when told Cersei had taken him as it was now out of his hands. 

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He is genuily hurt that Cersi and his father thought he would hurt the boy. 

Yet his own thoughts "or Cersei would win" show that he was prepared to do it. 

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I'm saying a character's or characters' stated on another is not in itself proof of the character really being that way.

When multiple characters are all singing from the same hymn sheet than either Ned is the biggest mummer alive or his actions throughout his life have led people to believe that he is a notably honourable man.  No one says the same about his brother or his father, or Cregan, the most famous Stark ruler in the Targaryne era. Ned is the only Stark we have seen be singled out for this kind praise, Occam's Razor suggest that it is because he is an Honourable man. 

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Jaime views Ned as cold while Brandon was hot. Jaimie's assement of the man wasn't really accurate given the tidal wave of emotion Ned displays often throughout AGOT,

This is not true. Look at how he views Aerys or Rhaegar. He is perfectly calm and reasonable when talking about them. 

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the raw unfettered rage he lets loose when pushed(ex.getting ready to murder or savagely beat little finger as a result of thinking LF was playing a joke on him).

He has came to the Capital thinking the previous Hand has been murdered and Littlefinger is constantly mocking him

"This is not the way to my chambers," Ned said.
"Did I say it was? I'm leading you to the dungeons to slit your throat and seal your corpse up behind a wall," Littlefinger replied, his voice dripping with sarcasm.
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Ned Stark dismounted in a fury. "A brothel," he said as he seized Littlefinger by the shoulder and spun him around. "You've brought me all this way to take me to a brothel."

"Your wife is inside," Littlefinger said.

 Do you really not know why Ned lost his temper? Does losing your temper, when constantly provoked, mean that all the people who have assessed Ned's character, such as Jaime, Theon, Jon and others are now wrong?
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We don't know Jorah's interactions with Ned outside of Ned having to tried to arrest Jorah for selling people into slavery.  

As a Northern vassal he would have served him in both wars and as a Northern Lord he would have interacted with his ruler. 

Jorah is clearly a much superior judge of Ned's character than Dany Targareyn is. I'm not sure how you are even debating this. 

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A honorable man that is not something I denied.

eh? I'm confused, what is the meaning of the title of the thread? People are arguing that he is honourable. If you think he is honourable then why are you questioning others who share that opinion?

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I'm saying what his society has laid as honorble behavior Ned Stark conforms to it to a reasonable degree-not exceptionally less than others or more. He swore no oaths to his family that stipulate having to protect them from all legal punishment if they had broken the law even if it means lying to a king. 

I'm pretty sure most marriage vows state that about protecting your wife in some form or other. We don't know the marriage vows of the Andals or First Men, but I'd be shocked if that was not included in the vow. 

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He finds protecting his loved ones whether they have done right or wrong from the law more important than honoring his actual oaths to his monarch

Sure. Many people put their marriage vows above the law. Famously it was believed that you could not testify against your spouse. It is up to the individual to decide which is more important. 

Though I'd say Westeros people acknowledge that family is just as important as monarch otherwise the Kingsguard would not be expected to 'divorce' their families when serving. No other vassal is expected to do that so the idea that it is taken for granted that King comes before family is not exactly accurate. 

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and to the gods. 

When has he dishonoured the Old Gods?

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Ned had promised to be one with Caitlyn; not protect her from lawful punishment for whatever acts she'd committed.

For many people they go hand in hand. You don't draw a line in the sand, that you protect your wife only up to a certain point. 

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The honorble thing in this instance in the framework of the society he lives in and on the oaths he swore to Robert is to be fully transparent and ask  if it is possible to bear some of the punishment for his wife's misdeeds for she is his responsibility as well.

That is your opinion. I don't see it like that and it is clear that Ned (we see his inner thoughts) is not conflicted at all in this lie like he is with Robert's will. 

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Because he loves his wife and family more and that love would triumph in terms of doing what would be honorble in his society whenever there is a dilemma.

Where is the dilemma? Which characters are declaring that family oaths are weaker than the ones to the monarch?

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Quotes of what exactly? That Westeroes is a patriarchy that expects subservient behavior from wives to husbands? And, the quote you've provided show Ned relaying a task on to Caitlyn. And a big one. That does not mean they're partners. 

It also does not show that they are not, so I guess we are at an impasse. 

If you don't think marriage is a partnership then that is fine. Others do. 

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The idea of partners is for people to come together for one goal;  servicing Ned in whatever he dictates. If Ned is the master of their relationship she must be his servent else how could he be master.

eh? You do realise that in many partnerships there are often more senior members than others. One who makes more decisions than the other

And if Ned is the Master of their relationship why does she tell Ned that Jon can not stay in Winterfell while he is away? Surely she would not be able to do that if she was his servant?

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Nothing explicity stated on whether a brother can or cannot have sex; just that he can't father any children or have any wives.

Sam thinks there is and he sleeps with her anyway. By his own standards he is breaking his honour. 

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And there is no evidence of Sam having rigged the election; he did some poltiking to get Jon the support from enough key figures in the watch to get Jon enough votes.

Which is not honourable. He knew he was tricking men who outranked him, he knew he was getting his friend elected rather than someone who had more support. That is not honourable. Clever, pragmatic, logical, but that is a dishonourable action

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Tywin is Kevan's older brother. He must obey him and where never given privy to if Tywin had ever specifically used him to do anything dishonorable or crimnal.

Puh-lease!

"They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door.

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He by all reason pertaining to honor should have never left them; but he like Ned is seen a paragon of honor by both friend and foe alike.

Ned was dead by the third time Barristan had picked yet another Monarch to follow. Rather than retire under the King he had sworn his life to protect he instead wishes his death and goes to fight for another side. This is not he action of an honourable man. 

Up until that point I'd agree with you, he was just as honourable as Ned.

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I did not say he was more honorble; I questioned this idea of him having no honor.

I find him to be honorble  in regards to the context of his society; the Ironborn. 

Well in the context of his society he sowed to King Robert. Not only did he dishonour his own vows to Robert but the vows of true Ironborn. 

But yeah, he has honour, I will retract that as that was just a hyperbolic statement. Ned however is the more honourable. 

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We've plenty of lords act far better interms if honor;

Just to be clear, I want to see these examples of plenty of Lords with more honour. 

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Ned in my opinion isn't really unique in any regard.

I have never stated that he was. I have stated he'd be in the top tier of honourable people in the series (there are hundreds of characters) and have even given examples of characters who I think are more Honourable. 

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Before this continues: first I'd like to say I'm having a fun time debating this and I respect your use of logic to make your case even if I don't agree with every point; hopefully we can keep this civil.

Sure. Nothing you have said has offended me and hopefully nothing I have said has offended you. I'm attacking your argument, not you. 

 

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What is deemed honorable depend on the value of the people.  Ned Stark is an honorable man based on their value.  Westeros nobles are expected to honor their oaths, tell the truth, be brave, and obey the law.  We have no proof that Ned broke his oaths, that he lied, that he was a coward, and that he broke the law.  The last one is a maybe.  He resigned when Robert ordered the assassination of Daenerys Targaryen.  Resigning your office is not against the law. 

Today, a person can be a coward and still be seen as honorable because we are not warriors.  The values are different. 

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Lol since I'm family-oriented (as in when you have a family that is always there for you blood or not) then yeah I think Ned is one hell of a guy. Say what you will about Jon- Catelyn. (I understand that under-cuts my family motives but I have a sister i would do anything for also)

Yes the guy is a saint... The war was what it was but if anyone remembers his POVs the guy goes out of his way about honor/slights/words 

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1 minute ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Lol since I'm family-oriented (as in when you have a family that is always there for you blood or not) then yeah I think Ned is one hell of a guy. Say what you will about Jon- Catelyn. (I understand that under-cuts my family motives but I have a sister i would do anything for also)

Yes the guy is a saint... The war was what it was but if anyone remembers his POVs the guy goes out of his way about honor/slights/words 

No offense but you should not be put into a position of command if you have a sister that you would do anything for.   You will always be compromised and you can never be trusted to serve the greater good if it ever conflicts with what is good for your sister.  Jon should never have been in a position of such leadership and responsibility.  Catelyn should have never had access to the most important P.O.W. of the war.

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18 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

No offense but you should not be put into a position of command if you have a sister that you would do anything for.   You will always be compromised and you can never be trusted to serve the greater good if it ever conflicts with what is good for your sister.  Jon should never have been in a position of such leadership and responsibility.  Catelyn should have never had access to the most important P.O.W. of the war.

I understand your point but that's why I see him as "honorable" in my view. It's just an impressive way to carry yourself while being warden of the north. Barbrey Dustin can disagree, I think he did what he had to do in an impossible situation, and IMHO guite gracefully 

And he wasn't put in a position of command. He was brutally robbed of the 2 closest male family members in front of him in line to do so.

Edited by One-eyed Misbehavin
Also it's possible he did the literally only thing he could for his sister.

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1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

  We have no proof that Ned broke his oaths, that he lied, that he was a coward, and that he broke the law

We do. He lied to Robert about ordering Cat to arrest Tyrion and he lied to Robert on his deathbed when he was recording the King's last will and testament. He also broke the law when he wrote his own interpenetration of what he wanted the King's will to be while him bribing the Gold Cloaks to arrest the royal family would have been, technically. breaking the law. 

Ned was not perfect, but despite all that he was one of the most honourable characters in the series. Sadly his downfall was probably attempting to ignore his honour and play the game of thrones as he was simply not a very good player. 

 

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

No offense but you should not be put into a position of command if you have a sister that you would do anything for.  

Pretty much everyone in command will have someone they care for. 

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