Jump to content
Varysblackfyre321

Is Ned Stark really that honorble?

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We will never know, I am just more inclined to think that his line of thinking is going to be similar to all the other oldguard members of the Nights Watch who were not pleased with Jon killing another brother, deserting the Watch and helping lead Wildlings into the North. 

Jeor is a Northman whose lands are close to the Wall and has seen first hand the rape and pillaging done by the Wildlings to Bear Island, he has not been forced to join the Watch because he is a criminal, has no place else to go for ambition, he joined because the Wall and the Watch has stood to keep the Wildling out of the North (regardless if it was originally huilt for other reasons). 

Fair enough. I mean thousands of years of prejudices of societal prejudices may linger in this old man-to the point where he may recognize the threat of the others but not fully be comfortable with allowing savages like weeper in. We'll never know. Also, Jeor although showing to the boy-he still wasn't entirely trusting of Jon given his previous attempt at desertion-I mean he specifically has the boy watched in case he buckled and tried to desert to fight for Robb. Still  His encounter shook him to the core and he recognizes the very true enemy of the watch and its purpose now-whatever can decrease the #of ice monsters is worth it eh?

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon volunteered for a similar mission for Jeor before all this, in fact in this mission Jon took the life of another Watch member and still failed his objective. 

Killing Mance is a legitimate mission given that he is the one who has banded all the Wildlings together and Jon, thanks to the sacrifice of the Halfhand, was in a position to do just that. 

Still it's a suicide mission. A worthwhile suicide mission-but still a suicide mission. And what mission did Jon volunteer for Jeor that comes any where close to the risk for this? Scouting with half-hand? 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Still it's a suicide mission. A worthwhile suicide mission-but still a suicide mission. And what mission did Jon volunteer for Jeor that comes any where close to the risk for this? Scouting with half-hand? 

It was a mission that was also expected to be incredibly dangerous. 

"Then you must send scouts into the mountains."

"I am loath to risk more men."

"We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm? I would send fifteen men, in three parties of five. One to probe the Milkwater, one the Skirling Pass, one to climb the Giant's Stair. Jarman Buckwell, Thoren Smallwood, and myself to command. To learn what waits in those mountains."

"Waits," the raven cried. "Waits."

Lord Commander Mormont sighed deep in his chest. "I see no other choice," he conceded, "but if you do not return . . . "

 

Given that most of Jon's party died on that mission Jeor was right to be worried. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It was a mission that was also expected to be incredibly dangerous. 

"Then you must send scouts into the mountains."

"I am loath to risk more men."

"We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm? I would send fifteen men, in three parties of five. One to probe the Milkwater, one the Skirling Pass, one to climb the Giant's Stair. Jarman Buckwell, Thoren Smallwood, and myself to command. To learn what waits in those mountains."

"Waits," the raven cried. "Waits."

Lord Commander Mormont sighed deep in his chest. "I see no other choice," he conceded, "but if you do not return . . . "

 

Given that most of Jon's party died on that mission Jeor was right to be worried. 

Oh stumbled upon this thought by Jon when Mance  making his proposal to him: "The old bear might at least have listened though he would have balked at the notion of letting 30,00 or so wildlings loose on the seven kingdoms" 

So based on Jon' thought probably Jeor wouldn't be delighted with Jon's plans. 

Still Halfhand's mission would be risky, Slynt's certian death-but given Jon has said he'd die for the watch...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2018 at 2:33 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Note- what is honor in a feudal society is not synonymous with moral-especially our modern sense of it.

Tyrion isn't really honorble-but far be it me to say he is not moral. 

This has been discussed before in other threads:

Still I kinda wanted to share my thoughts and continue the discussion because I don't think it's one talked about enough:

I don't see Ned having particularly honorble given his social context.

Like, every major dilemma to which doing the honorble comes at the cost of what Ned personally feels is the right thing or looks to be something that looks to be a really bad idea(mostly for him or his loved ones) the majority of the time he buckled. For instance supporting Robert's skipping the line of succession while a male heir is still around-which would be a clear violation of the line of succession-keeping (if R+L=J is true), in total obliviousness of his true heritage and his potential rights to the throne(of course to protect the boy)-giving Cersi aheads up to flee with her abominations(after trying to murder the king and have planned to place her abominations shedon the thone).  Hell I wager if he'd been in the king's guard he would have slit  Aery's throat half-way in to Jaimie's tenure from the amount of evil stuff he'd seen-not because that is the "honorble" thing to do but because it would seem the right thing to do. 

I feel Ned was able to enjoy a reputation of being really honorble well because he didn't have to work especially hard to get it-being a Stark he'd be thought to be at the height of honor so it's easy to play it so long as he did not do anything especially bad-shake some lords hands here or there pay the proper respect and that's all there is to it. He isn't particularly ambitious(he's content with his place lord paramount) to which merely being normal  makes him great.

People who know only that reputation will take it as a given he is exceptionally honorble; hell even Jorah bought into it; though he was a slaver and he did bankrupt his house for his trophy wife -so what is honorble to him doesn't amount  for much

Hell  Ned  even for his reasons for why he cannot go along with Baelish's plan is less to do with as more of pride(not particularly worse or better imo), the Laninsters had tried to murder one of his boys, they took his dear friend, Ned will not settle for this ruse with that knowledge.

 

His downfall was because he had made some critical strategic blusters, took potentially worthwhile risks that didn't pay off and ultimately took a risk that didn't need to be taken (giving Cersi a heads up).

Giving heads up to Cersi(though it kinda seems pointless and partially a way to ease Ned's guilt given he should know Robert once he finds out this news will start a genocide on House Laninster and there won't be a place where Cersi and her children could hide).  He did something that corresponded with his own sense morality but failed to plan accordingly to ensure it doesn't backfire or recognize doing it would back. Which I really think is an example of a reoccurring sin.

 

I think Ned does care about honor and morality, which is indeed not the same thing, although Ned conflates them at times, cause of course such a society hides their ugly truths behind honor, pretending that honor quite literally means morality.

In the end though, i think ned is honorable and moral when it's easy. He definitly cares about his family and his friends but he seems to be unable to think beyond his own perspective so he doesn't really consider the suffering he doesn't see. As a result he often ends up being extremely hypocritical. His family and friends deserve the benefit of the doubt but nobody else does cause oathbreaking is oathbreaking, he doesn't even consider their reasons. 

I think ned is pretty honorable and has good intensions but he's also very judgemental while being unable to see his own faults.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on what the meaning of is , is .

If you believe the theory of the Order of the Green Hand about R+L=J , that Jon is Eddard's true born son . For the price of an army he made Jon a bastard ,thus limiting  Jon's prospects .THAT IS DISHONORABLE .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no he was self-righteous. he betrayed his king by giving mercy where it was not his to give, he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed, and throws his life and the life of his daughters in danger to be merciful to a traitorous queen so she and her incest born basterds can run off and hide ( and thus escape the kings Justus ). ( how would king Robert react to ned's betrayal if he learned the truth?)

 

 o and ask your self this do you think ned stark would show Robert Baratheon as much distain as he shows the kingslayer if Robert had personally killed the mad king, keep in mind that Robert is a kinslayer for slaying prince Rhaegar yet "honorable" ned stark makes no mention of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oakbloodthesap said:

 o and ask your self this do you think ned stark would show Robert Baratheon as much distain as he shows the kingslayer if Robert had personally killed the mad king, keep in mind that Robert is a kinslayer for slaying prince Rhaegar yet "honorable" ned stark makes no mention of it.

Are you on drugs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

no he was self-righteous. he betrayed his king by giving mercy where it was not his to give, he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed, and throws his life and the life of his daughters in danger to be merciful to a traitorous queen so she and her incest born basterds can run off and hide ( and thus escape the kings Justus ). ( how would king Robert react to ned's betrayal if he learned the truth?)

 

 o and ask your self this do you think ned stark would show Robert Baratheon as much distain as he shows the kingslayer if Robert had personally killed the mad king, keep in mind that Robert is a kinslayer for slaying prince Rhaegar yet "honorable" ned stark makes no mention of it.

1) Would you sleep, peacefully, knowing that you could prevent death of two innocent children?

2) Killing Rhaegar isn't kinslaying.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Are you on drugs?

Maybe is he sock puppet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/17/2018 at 7:55 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

It depends on what the meaning of is , is .

If you believe the theory of the Order of the Green Hand about R+L=J , that Jon is Eddard's true born son . For the price of an army he made Jon a bastard ,thus limiting  Jon's prospects .THAT IS DISHONORABLE .

No it's not. It's saving his life. If Ned declared Jon a Targaryen, Robert would want the baby's head. Robert's satisfaction at the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon cemented that for Ned. The laws of kin are older than those of a liege. Ned would consider himself a kinslayer if he gave the baby to Robert for execution, since Jon is his blood. Apart from breaking guest right, kinslaying is the worst thing a man can do. Might partly be why Maegor is considered Maegor the Cruel, since he murdered two of his nephews.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

no he was self-righteous. he betrayed his king by giving mercy where it was not his to give, he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed, and throws his life and the life of his daughters in danger to be merciful to a traitorous queen so she and her incest born basterds can run off and hide ( and thus escape the kings Justus ). ( how would king Robert react to ned's betrayal if he learned the truth?)

 

 o and ask your self this do you think ned stark would show Robert Baratheon as much distain as he shows the kingslayer if Robert had personally killed the mad king, keep in mind that Robert is a kinslayer for slaying prince Rhaegar yet "honorable" ned stark makes no mention of it.

I'm gonna break down this post a bit to make it manageable for me.

2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

no he was self-righteous.

I would disagree. Eddard became Lord of WF when his father & bother were killed/died. It is not explicitly stated when Eddard became Warden of the North. After the rebellion he had been governing, paying the tax and administering justice in an area that King Bob describes as larger than the other six kingdoms combined.

2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

he betrayed his king by giving mercy where it was not his to give,

I’m thinking Jon Arryn betrayed his king by not giving up his wards Eddard and Robert ---- I’m guessing that defiance is rebellion against the throne. Whacha tink?

2 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed,

During the rebellion the only family Eddard had left was his pup brother, his sister, and his new wife that he married during the rebellion.

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

and throws his life and the life of his daughters in danger to be merciful to a traitorous queen so she and her incest born basterds can run off and hide ( and thus escape the kings Justus )

Eddard was not versed in the games (politics) of KL ---- he gave Cersei an out. He was under the impression King Bob would kill them should the adulterous incest become known. Problem is that Cersei was a step ahead of naïve Eddard.

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

( how would king Robert react to ned's betrayal if he learned the truth?)

I don't know.  Because, the story is written as it is.  I would suggest that it was King Bob that betrayed his bestest buddy by bringing Eddard into the vipers nest without giving Eddard any whats ups.

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

o and ask your self this do you think ned stark would show Robert Baratheon as much distain as he shows the kingslayer

As the saga unfolds it is not commonly known that Aerys was going to burn KL. In Eddard’s mind Jaime’s duty was to protect the king.     Silly isn’t it since Eddard was in open rebellion with Robert against Aerys. Yet, there is that thawg about Tywin withholding support during the rebellion and then showing up at KL and Pycelle suggesting Aerys open the gates to Twyin.

3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

if Robert had personally killed the mad king, keep in mind that Robert is a kinslayer for slaying prince Rhaegar yet "honorable" ned stark makes no mention of it.

There may be a drop of Targ blood in the Baratheon family tree. By definition Robert was not a kinslayer.

What does it matter now ---- both Robert and Eddard are dead and words are wind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That drop was Robert's paternal grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, wife of Ormund Baratheon. Rhaelle was the youngest daughter of Aegon V. Their son was Steffon Baratheon, who married Cassana Estermont and Robert is their eldest son. 

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

no he was self-righteous. he betrayed his king by giving mercy where it was not his to give, he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed, and throws his life and the life of his daughters in danger to be merciful to a traitorous queen so she and her incest born basterds can run off and hide ( and thus escape the kings Justus ). ( how would king Robert react to ned's betrayal if he learned the truth?)

 

The idea behind not telling his family is that if one knows the secret, none of the others would be punished. 

Throwing their lives in danger was partly Sansa's fault for running to Cersei and ratting them out. When he had that conversation with Cersei, he was already done for. 

Ned would do anything that would not lead to the death of children, and his belief that Robert would kill them was cemented by Robert's satisfaction at the deaths of Rhaegar and Elia's children. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That drop was Robert's paternal grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, youngest daughter of Ormund Baratheon. Rhaelle was the youngest daughter of Aegon V. Their son was Steffon Baratheon, who married Cassana Estermont and Robert is their eldest son. 

 

Great day in the morning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert Baratheon: Killed his distant cousin, Rhaegar Targaryen during the Battle of the Trident. also keep in mind that Robert founded his claim on the iron throne based on his Targaryen blood. ( it's something that stands out because no one brings it up )

innocent? they where pretenders to the throne set to one day sit apon it and declare themselves king's of the seven kingdoms ( Andals  and the first men. ) basterds born of incest that ned valued more then his own life and that of his own children ( Robert would of went nut's if he learned the truth why do you think the queen was plotting his death, because king Robert would have killed them both, her and ever fucken Lannister he could get his hands on. also I'm pretty sure there would of been some oaths or vows when ned toke the title of hand of the king speculation and assumption but pretty sure it would involve the words protect the realm, serve the king obey the king ext ext. ( now that I say that out load grrm missed a plot point here or was that intentional )

just call me the drugged up sock puppet. 

ps. link's weren't intended source is a wiki of ice and fire; kinslaying

Edited by oakbloodthesap
links

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

Robert Baratheon: Killed his distant cousin, Rhaegar Targaryen during the Battle of the Trident. also keep in mind that Robert founded his claim on the iron throne based on his Targaryen blood. ( it's something that stands out because no one brings it up )

innocent? they where pretenders to the throne set to one day sit apon it and declare themselves king's of the seven kingdoms ( Andals  and the first men. ) basterds born of incest that ned valued more then his own life and that of his own children ( Robert would of went nut's if he learned the truth why do you think the queen was plotting his death, because king Robert would have killed them both, her and ever fucken Lannister he could get his hands on. also I'm pretty sure there would of been some oaths or vows when ned toke the title of hand of the king speculation and assumption but pretty sure it would involve the words protect the realm, serve the king obey the king ext ext. ( now that I say that out load grrm missed a plot point here or was that intentional )

just call me the drugged up sock puppet. 

I’m surprised she didn’t try sooner. And Ned didn’t want Robert to go berserk, that’s why he warned Cersei in the first place. 

Kitsch?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

basterds born of incest that ned valued more then his own life and that of his own children

Clearly he diid not think he was in any particular danger, or his chidren for that matter but he had arranged for them to leave KL by ship to make sure they were out of harm's way in any case.  Your comment is verging on the absurd

4 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:

he puts his family in danger to satisfy one notion of honor if l + r = j is to be believed

If L+R=J is to be believed then Jon is family so he is protecting family not acting on some abstract notion of honour, no?

25 minutes ago, oakbloodthesap said:

just call me the drugged up sock puppet. 

Well, since you ask, you sound like a drugged up sock puppet.

You're welcome

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Jon Arryn betrayed his king by not giving up his wards Eddard and Robert yes tho was it honorable to give them up his wards (why ned stark and Robert Baratheon where wards of jon arryn in the first place is a important issue.) to the mad king? debatable 

yes a wife he had robb, sansa, arya, bran and rickon with thus the consequences of his choice would grow. a fact that was not lost on him as he thinks to himself that if it would come to the life of jon snow or his true born... something a long the lines of he prayed he would never have to. also the evitable war that would come about if jon snows true parentage would become known. is it rely honorable to risk the lives of his northmen and kin for that of a basterd?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if l + r = j is true and comes to light then everyone is going to look at jon snow as the product of rape. ( we don't even know the true story between lyanna and the prince. ) which bags the question would the northern bannermen want to fight for the starks to protect the last Targaryen basterd?  is it really honorable to protect even if it is your own blood a child that could if his true identity is revealed end up destroying your house. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×