Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Based on the quote you shot and nine possible dead Targs may be close. If im not mistaken since Aegon V is king, Prince Duncan should receive Summerhall. So the man who burned his fathers home, would be the son of Prince Duncan and Jenny of Old Stone if correct. 

Though i couldn't say who at Eastwatch. Doubtful it's Cotter Pyke. I only know of the Maester Harmune and i think that's it? That we know of for sure? Unless some one else can find more, i couldn't.

There isn't anything else apart from that brief mention. I don't really think there's anything to it tbh, but it has always intrigued me. 

[Lord Varys]

On 18.2.2018 at 2:37 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, and given how long Duncan and Jenny were married, chances are they had some. But of course impossible to be sure they did at this point, let alone how many if they did.

It is not unlikely, and I think they may have had children who are still around today, but it is impossible to say at this point.

All we can say is that Rhaegar was Aegon V's first great-grandchild, meaning that Duncan and Jenny's children - if they existed - didn't have any children of their own in 259 AC.

Duncan's children may no longer be counted as Targaryens/members of the royal family due to the fact that he gave up his claim to the Iron Throne. That could have allowed them to disappear beyond the radar.

There is a theory that the Reeds are descendants of Duncan and Jenny. I remember discussing this thing to death with @Ibbison from Ibben.

We only know that Aegon V, Prince Duncan, and Dunk died at Summerhall. Jenny may have died there, too, but it is possible she survived and just went mad. Aerys, Rhaella, Jaehaerys II, and Queen Shaera all survived. Steffon Baratheon's mother Princess Rhaelle may have died there, but she could also have died in childbirth, explaining why Steffon doesn't have any siblings.

Aside from those, we can speculate that Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, Princess Rhae, Princess Daella (who I think was long dead at the time), and Princess Daenora were there and died there, if they were still alive. Egg's nephew Maegor wouldn't have been even thirty at that time, and Princess Vaella shy of forty.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 2/16/2018 at 3:48 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, why would anyone try to hatch dragons after the failure at summerhall? Aerys was mad, not stupid. 

The World Book tells us that Aerys tried to hatch dragon eggs after Duskendale.

"In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however."

The idea that Aegon V intentionally tried to kill his family members, including his unborn great grandson, to hatch dragon eggs is without basis.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The World Book tells us that Aerys tried to hatch dragon eggs after Duskendale.

"In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however."

The idea that Aegon V intentionally tried to kill his family members, including his unborn great grandson, to hatch dragon eggs is without basis.

and there was no mention of sacrifice 

 

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not gonna bother tagging specific people that blah blah blah'd a whole lot about Rhaegar's birth not being connected to Summerhal other than by chance.

This is for every one else that may be curious.

So yes, not only did they know Rhaegar was going to be born there, it was part of the plan. Cause why else make poor Rhaella come out there? 

Rhaegar's birth was intrinsically connected to what ever happened at Harrenhal.

 

So i return to one of my original questions, were they going to sacrifice Rhaegar?

I think it's got legs. The idea that a character could start out good and noble but end up doing bad things is clearly established, ie, Arya, Bran, Mad Aerys, -- as is the idea that a character could start off a prick but end up doing, or at least trying to do, good, Jaime, Theon...

We also have the story of Nissa Nissa to show that when trying to create a magical super-weapon, the sacrifice of a loved one, or even your most-cherished loved one in the whole world, is necessary.

So Aegon turning to extremes to produce a dragon that would allow him to rule, coupled with Dunk betraying his king to protect innocent life, are both well within the realm of plausibility.

To me, it's beyond silly that people would dismiss the whole thing because "it doesn't say so in the book." There isn't a theory on this board that can be "proven" since, duh, then it's not a theory, it's a fact. So I say let those with no imagination stew in their own mire; I'll take creative thinking over dogmatic arrogance any day.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think it's got legs. The idea that a character could start out good and noble but end up doing bad things is clearly established, ie, Arya, Bran, Mad Aerys, -- as is the idea that a character could start off a prick but end up doing, or at least trying to do, good, Jaime, Theon...

We also have the story of Nissa Nissa to show that when trying to create a magical super-weapon, the sacrifice of a loved one, or even your most-cherished loved one in the whole world, is necessary.

So Aegon turning to extremes to produce a dragon that would allow him to rule, coupled with Dunk betraying his king to protect innocent life, are both well within the realm of plausibility.

To me, it's beyond silly that people would dismiss the whole thing because "it doesn't say so in the book." There isn't a theory on this board that can be "proven" since, duh, then it's not a theory, it's a fact. So I say let those with no imagination stew in their own mire; I'll take creative thinking over dogmatic arrogance any day.

 

Agreed and thank you!  I think the blatant disregard is funny. Specially since death had to have paid for life as Mirri says. So there was some sacrifice in the Dothraki Sea tied to the hatching of the eggs. Something we never hear about any where else about dragons. Which isn't surprising since Dany is the first time we've actually seen a Targaryen actually hatch one other than a Maesters report. Oh wow, a maester keeping secrets? 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

To me, it's beyond silly that people would dismiss the whole thing because "it doesn't say so in the book." There isn't a theory on this board that can be "proven" since, duh, then it's not a theory, it's a fact. So I say let those with no imagination stew in their own mire; I'll take creative thinking over dogmatic arrogance any day.

Yeah, man. It has nothing to do with the quality (or even presence) of the evidence. It's just about people being totes jerks.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think it's got legs. The idea that a character could start out good and noble but end up doing bad things is clearly established, ie, Arya, Bran, Mad Aerys, -- as is the idea that a character could start off a prick but end up doing, or at least trying to do, good, Jaime, Theon...

Aerys started out good and noble?

Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble."

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yeah, man. It has nothing to do with the quality (or even presence) of the evidence. It's just about people being totes jerks.  

Sarcasm? The evidence is as I've laid out. It's sets the precedence. Whether it is convincing or not is up to the reader, but it is present.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Aerys started out good and noble?

Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble."

 

Quote

World Book, Aerys II

A handsome youth, Aerys had fought gallantly in the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends.

snip

The young king was lively and active in the early years of his reign. He loved music, dancing and masked balls...

Is this good and noble? That's an objective call. But he certainly was not wicked and mad.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sarcasm? The evidence is as I've laid out. It's sets the precedence. Whether it is convincing or not is up to the reader, but it is present.

Is this good and noble? That's an objective call. But he certainly was not wicked and mad.

Massive cheating on his wife, grandiose plans never followed through on, delegated governance to his Hand, trying to cheat the iron bank and then fight it 

It's not bad and ignoble but in no way shape or form is it good and noble. I mean there's a reason you left out the rest of that sentence and the succeeding one.

[Grover Bluejoy]

So I know this is a little off topic here, is probably not totally relevant (I do like the idea, but I'm ultimately all ) and I'm sure the post can be found somewhere, but I remember reading a pretty in-depth speculation that volcanoes/volcanic activity are ultimately tied to hatching dragons, and that it may be one of the missing 'pieces' needed. 

I don't recall if it's in the chapter right before her eggs hatch or the chapter itself, but there is a line about one of Dany's handmaidens filling her bathtub with 'sulfuric' smelling water. From what I understand, Summerhall is not anywhere near a volcano nor volcanic activity that we know of.

Anyways that's all I got and this post reminded me of that idea, so continue on and ignore me, lol.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Massive cheating on his wife, grandiose plans never followed through on, delegated governance to his Hand, trying to cheat the iron bank and then fight it 

It's not bad and ignoble but in no way shape or form is it good and noble. I mean there's a reason you left out the rest of that sentence and the succeeding one.

Lots of kings and high lords cheat on their wives, many grandiose plans fail, virtually all kings delegate governance to their Hands (that's what they are there for) -- none of this makes Aerys the tyrant he turned out to be. So if you want to take issue with wording, fine, but the point remains: characters change and evolve over time, so there is no reason to think that the 10-year-old Egg we see in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms would be the same king who died 50 years later.

The Iron Bank thing did jump out at me, though. This was abut 15 years prior to Robert's Rebellion, but mayhaps it caused the IB to plant the seed in certain lords' minds that maybe a change is in order?

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lots of kings and high lords cheat on their wives, many grandiose plans fail, virtually all kings delegate governance to their Hands (that's what they are there for) -- none of this makes Aerys the tyrant he turned out to be. So if you want to take issue with wording, fine, but the point remains: characters change and evolve over time, so there is no reason to think that the 10-year-old Egg we see in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms would be the same king who died 50 years later.

The Iron Bank thing did jump out at me, though. This was abut 15 years prior to Robert's Rebellion, but mayhaps it caused the IB to plant the seed in certain lords' minds that maybe a change is in order?

If only I had addressed this before:

Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble."

No to the IB. They got paid. We can stop discussion of that here. Start a new thread

[John Suburbs]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If only I had addressed this before:

Don't get me wrong the character clearly follows the kind of arc you're describing, it just starts much lower than "good and noble."

No to the IB. They got paid. We can stop discussion of that here

Sure, Tywin paid them back out of his own pocket, but might not that have been enough for the IB to start having conversations with the high lords, especially after Tywin resigned as hand? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Stop trying to hijack threads

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Grover Bluejoy said:

So I know this is a little off topic here, is probably not totally relevant (I do like the idea, but I'm ultimately all ) and I'm sure the post can be found somewhere, but I remember reading a pretty in-depth speculation that volcanoes/volcanic activity are ultimately tied to hatching dragons, and that it may be one of the missing 'pieces' needed. 

I don't recall if it's in the chapter right before her eggs hatch or the chapter itself, but there is a line about one of Dany's handmaidens filling her bathtub with 'sulfuric' smelling water. From what I understand, Summerhall is not anywhere near a volcano nor volcanic activity that we know of.

Anyways that's all I got and this post reminded me of that idea, so continue on and ignore me, lol.

Well i can tell the topic of dragon hatching is still debated over so im actually working on a new thread. Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural history, as a mock book of Barth's collecting everything we know about dragon origins and such and how the Valyrians came by them.

The second part with be Blood and Fire, a Death of Dragons, just to cover how they went extinct based on evidence at hand. And all known information on how to kill a dragon, mixed with the dragon deaths we know of. 

Then the third part for a full look at Dany in chronological order from the events to the dreams that led up to it all. To try to compare to what we know of the past. Like cradle eggs, bloodmagic, fire magic, or others. Also how Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa tie to Dany.

I want to discuss the origin of dragons and when they came. Tales of early dragons and whether these are real dragons, or Pre-Valyrians (humans). And whether dragons predate the long night or not.

Theres a couple things linked to Unnatural histories (book of dragons) that are talking about COTF teaching men the language of Ravens. In the dragon book....why? Unless skinchanging is indeed connected to dragons. 

Barth also doubted that Cannibal predated the Valyrians on Dragonstone. So this alone is a topic i want to discuss. Like where did he come from then and why was he not claimed. Basically all dragon lore. 

To understand hopefully better what may have been happening at Summerhal. Where Rhaegars birth was a central part of Summerhall (I already provided quotes for this) and so was hatching dragons. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/19/2018 at 1:44 AM, kissdbyfire said:

There isn't anything else apart from that brief mention. I don't really think there's anything to it tbh, but it has always intrigued me. 

Maybe maybe not. Though it's definitely pretty specific and fits the missing Targs who's deaths' are not accounted for that i mentioned. Plus the culprit had he been 20 then would be 60 now. At least worth keeping an eye out for an the story moves forward now.

Either the fire was an accident and either got knocked over or some how away from them. Though it seems safely stored and moved any other time. 

Or, it was sabotaged to prevent dragons cause Aegon may have figured out all the right steps and some one freaked. Or they just thought he was close and that was reason enough. 

If option two i right, then said culprit(s) may still be at large. 

I've got to say though that i still think Duncan would be the most tragic. And Rhaegar's very life owed for the deaths that day. That's tragic and sad and would haunt any man i would think. That "in order for my family to have hatched dragons again, i should have died. Saving me ended my family." specially for a guy that he him self believed prophecy. 

[kissdbyfire]

31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maybe maybe not. Though it's definitely pretty specific and fits the missing Targs who's deaths' are not accounted for that i mentioned. Plus the culprit had he been 20 then would be 60 now. At least worth keeping an eye out for an the story moves forward now.

Absolutely.

Quote

Either the fire was an accident and either got knocked over or some how away from them. Though it seems safely stored and moved any other time. 

I'm not sure what you mean here... 

And yeah, we've seen wildfire being handled and stored, but we've also been told it's extremely volatile and nearly impossible to control. 

Have you seen the illustration in the WB?

Quote

Or, it was sabotaged to prevent dragons cause Aegon may have figured out all the right steps and some one freaked. Or they just thought he was close and that was reason enough. 

I highly doubt it. Most of all because I don't think it's possible for Egg to have figured out a 'formula'. What I mean is, I don't think there is a formula. Probably a combo of some key elements that are absolutely required and a(some) random unpredictable magical event(s). 

Quote

If option two i right, then said culprit(s) may still be at large. 

Possible. And the Citadel's got a finger in it, if this is how it happened. 

Quote

I've got to say though that i still think Duncan would be the most tragic.

Not sure what you mean here?

 

Quote

And Rhaegar's very life owed for the deaths that day. That's tragic and sad and would haunt any man i would think. That "in order for my family to have hatched dragons again, i should have died. Saving me ended my family." specially for a guy that he him self believed prophecy. 

Maybe he initially believed that he was the PtwP because he 'hatched' at Summerhall. And later changed his mind because of something he read somewhere. I really want to learn everything about Summerhall, but at the same time I don't want to hear a word about it. Just too sad!

I really  Dunk & Egg.

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure what you mean here... 

Meaning either the fire was a accident of some how. Just listing two different ways, they lost control over the fire or some one accidentally knocked a jar over.

 

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean here?

I mean that i think Ser Duncan accidentally knocking it over to save Rhaegar, but losing every one else to save Rhaegar, would be the most tragic imo.

 

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe he initially believed that he was the PtwP because he 'hatched' at Summerhall. And later changed his mind because of something he read somewhere. I really want to learn everything about Summerhall, but at the same time I don't want to hear a word about it. Just too sad!

Yea and something strikes me as odd about that. Why would you think you, and all those deaths, and everything, just to switch to your son cause of a comet. What did he make of Summerhall at that point then? Just an accident, or a step towards it? You spend your whole life visiting this site too. 

I know its never mentioned so god forbid it totally didn't happen then and we can't speculate on it (Paraphrasing others), but, did Rhaegar stick eggs in the cradles of Rhaenys and Aegon? What became of those eggs? The eggs from Summerhall should either be unscathed, or hatched. 

[Makk]

This topic is highly speculative, has never been presented as anything else, but I think it is quite intriguing. I definitely don't think it is probable but I don't think it is unlikely either. We don't know details about that period of time, we have the world book and a more detailed set of stories about both Duncan and Aegon a much earlier point in their lives. I think everyone would agree that Dunk is the sort of person who would try and save an unborn infant who was about to be sacrificed in a sorcerous ritual. Most people here seem to not believe Aegon V would initiate such a ritual however. Let's take a look at what we do have. 

Quote

It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon's patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all.

Quote

 

And intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them. Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees.

The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

It is unfortunate that the tragedy that transpired at Summerhall left very few witnesses alive, and those who survived would not speak of it. A tantalizing page of Gyldayn's history—surely one of the very last written before his own death—hints at much, but the ink that was spilled over it in some mishap blotted out too much.

...the blood of the dragon gathered in one... ...seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned... ...pyromancers... ...wild fire... ...flames grew out of control...towering...burned so hot that... ...died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman...

So we know Aegon really wanted dragons. We also have hints that he changed significantly as he grew older, he became almost obsessed with the possibility, ignoring friends and counselors, convinced that Dragons would help him make the world a better place. We know he was willing to explore ancient lore and take risks. Summerhall was almost certainly intended as a ritual to hatch dragons. And we know Dunk saved someones life.

As the OP pointed out, there is a striking resemblance to how Daenerys' dragons were hatched and what some differences were at Sumerhall.

And this is the sort of thing GRRM likes writing. He builds his characters by testing them and forcing them to make decisions they don't like. Would Egg want to sacrifice an unborn child, one of his own blood to boot? Of course not. But would he do it for the greater good and could he himself believe that the soul of the infant would live on in the Dragons? Such an idea is a lot more dramatic than an accident and we may get more on this in the future if GRRM gets round to it. I wouldn't rule this out.