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Bowen 747

Lady Dustin and Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions

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58 minutes ago, Helena Kyle said:

There is nothing unjust about executing Rickard if he was plotting against the Targaryens.  That is treason.  There is nothing unjust about executing Robert because he was part of the plot to overthrow the Targaryens. 

Also sprach der Targaryen Propagandaleiter! 

Rickard enforcing the ban on the Lord's right to first night, bwahahahaha :D

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3 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

 he was part of the plot to overthrow the Targaryens. 

Prove it.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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12 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

Seriously dude, if you had followed the link given by the OP to the interview at the mark indicated, George himself said so, that Robert no longer wanted to do what the Targaryens command him to do.  Robert wanted to do what he wanted rather than what the Targaryens tell him to do.  In other words, Robert no longer wanted to obey.

There is nothing unjust about executing Rickard if he was plotting against the Targaryens.  That is treason.  There is nothing unjust about executing Robert because he was part of the plot to overthrow the Targaryens. 

My mistake then. However, that doesn't prove anything at all. Robert not wanting to have to do what he was told doesn't mean he was actively trying to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty.

There is everything unjust about executing Rickard if he wasn't plotting to overthrow the Targaryen's and there is no proof that he was. Same goes for Robert.

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On 19/2/2018 at 8:03 PM, goldenmaps said:

I got the feeling that Brandon just wanted to get into Barbrey Dustin's pants.  No more, no less.  He just told her that he didn't want to marry Cat so that he can sleep with her.  I'm pretty sure, Brandon was ok with marrying Cat.  Cat is from a prominent house that could benefit Brandon greatly.  Also, Cat is beautiful.  There were little or no disadvantages for Brandon marrying Cat.

This. It's always seemed obvious to me that Brandon fed that bullshit to lady Barbrey in order to get into her pants. Him not wanting to marry Catelyn but being forced to sounds a lot like a married man who swears to his hot mistress that he's going to divorce his rich wife. Eventually,

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On 2/18/2018 at 5:58 AM, Bowen 747 said:

Okay, so in A Dance with Dragons, we meet an interesting character, Barbrey Dustin who had a lot to say about Rickard Stark.  "Rickard Stark had ambitions.  Southron Ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his vassals."

 

  1. Barbrey and Brandon were lovers.  Brandon was forced to abandon Barbrey for Catelyn in order to make possible his father's ambitions.  So what kind of ambition would require the strength of marriage bond in order to seal it?  Well, in our story, that usually means a preparation for war.  Result = Barbrey lost her man.
  2. Ned was the second choice after Brandon because Barbrey's old man had ambitions of his own.  Her father had the more typical ambition of strengthening his position in the north, in his corner of the world.  We know Brandon lost his temper, forced his way into the king's chambers, and threatened to murder the ruling family of Westeros.  For his crimes, Brandon was executed.  The Starks rebelled and in order to honor the deal with the Tullys, he had to fill in for Brandon and marry Catelyn.  Result = Barbrey lost her second man.
  3. Jon Arryn rebelled.  Ned called his banners.  One being Barbrey's new husband, whom she had grown to love.  Lord Dustin died for Ned.  Ned brought his horse back but left behind his bones in Dorne.  Ned brought back his sister's bones but could not be bothered to bring back the bones of the man who gave his life for his.  Result = Barbrey lost her third man.

Lady Dustin lost all of the men she loved and it was all because of Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.  While there is no direct proof of what Rickard's intentions were for attempting to build those strong blood alliances, they usually mean preparation for war.  Stand or fall, those marriage alliances mean the conspirators, or future rebels in this case, will fight and stay together.  Marriage alliances decrease the chances of betrayal and we have been repeatedly reminded, when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  In this case, the traitors either win together or die together.  There was nothing innocent about those marriages.  Had those marriages come to pass, Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon would have alliances, sealed by blood, that would directly threaten the authority of the Targaryen king, 

Below is a passage from A Game of Thrones:

"Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant from Brandon.  You,  Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

To me, the phrase "it was all meant for Brandon" meant there was a plan in place to grant all of those things to him.  Catelyn, because of the marriage arrangement.  Winterfell, naturally because Brandon was the eldest.  A King's Hand is not normally within the reasonable ambitions of a Winterfell lord, unless there is a change in the ruling monarchs. 

Here's another passage from the same tome:

From Robert to Ned.  "We were meant to rule together.  If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection.  Well, it is not too late.  I have a son.  You have a daughter.  My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might have done."

 

The following interview, at about the 28 minute mark, George says directly that some of the lords, Robert in particular, had wanted to do their own thing and not be told what to do.  I believe there is something nefarious about Robert and Rickard's marriage arrangements.  I believe those men were planning rebellion.  Those marriage arrangements were meant to build the blood bond so that the conspirators will not be able to turn on one another when things get difficult.  They were about to embark on rebellion against an established dynasty and it would not do for anybody in their group to change their minds later on.  This is not at all dissimilar to what Walder, Robb, Catelyn, and Roose tried to do during the War of the Five Kings.  If Robb had married a Frey, Walder would not and could not have turned his back on him.  Also, in light of this, King Aerys actually had a good reason for killing Rickard, Ned, and Robert.  Ned was old enough to know what his father and Robert were up to.  Ned had a higher obligation and he should have supported the Targaryens instead by bringing his father's plans to the attention of King Aerys.  Ned was also guilty of treason even though he may not have been directly involved.  Lyanna too was part of the treason and perhaps King Aerys sent those kingsguard to the Tower of Joy to cut off her head.   Executing Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna, Robert, and Ned were perfectly reasonable given that their families were guilty of treason and plotting rebellion.

 

LMAO 

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On 2/18/2018 at 9:02 AM, lAPPYc said:

So how will they use Rhaegar to remove Aerys? Just ask him to? What's the guarantee that he will do it? A huge alliance is a guarantee though.

There is no guarantee of anything.  But if I were the Targaryens Rickard and Robert would be on my To-Kill List. 

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26 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

There is no guarantee of anything.  But if I were the Targaryens Rickard and Robert would be on my To-Kill List. 

Killing Rickard and threatening to kill Robert is why they had Robert's Rebellion in the first place.  If Aerys didn't do any of those actions, I doubt that Robert's Rebellion would have succeeded. 

 

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5 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

Killing Rickard and threatening to kill Robert is why they had Robert's Rebellion in the first place.  If Aerys didn't do any of those actions, I doubt that Robert's Rebellion would have succeeded

 

It's not that it wouldn't have succeeded, it wouldn't even have happened! 

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On 2/18/2018 at 3:58 AM, Bowen 747 said:

We know Brandon lost his temper, forced his way into the king's chambers, and threatened to murder the ruling family of Westeros.  For his crimes, Brandon was executed. 

Oh right i forgot this part! Man, the Knights of the Kings Guard, must of really find a lovely brothel to let this slip up happen!

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14 minutes ago, Rikkisix said:

Oh right i forgot this part! Man, the Knights of the Kings Guard, must of really find a lovely brothel to let this slip up happen!

I can't really tell whether you are being sarcastic or not, so... in case you weren't, what the poster you quoted said never happened. 

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This can all be easily dismissed as a trend rather than a conspiracy. Wards and Marriages are one of the biggest power plays any lord can  make and it doesn't always mean that its gearing up for war. 

Not only was all the Southron Ambitions going on but Tywin was seeking marriages for Jamie to Lysa, Elia. etc. Oberyn and Elia were being shopped out. Doran when across the narrow sea to find a wife, and he was the heir. The Umber's were shopping for wives in the Reach. It seems like not marrying your local bannermen was a pretty common practice.

Not saying there wasn't some serious scheming going on but the whole Robert and Jon Arryn were scheming long before the Rebellion is a stretch for me.   

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