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Bowen 747

Lady Dustin and Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions

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Okay, so in A Dance with Dragons, we meet an interesting character, Barbrey Dustin who had a lot to say about Rickard Stark.  "Rickard Stark had ambitions.  Southron Ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his vassals."

 

  1. Barbrey and Brandon were lovers.  Brandon was forced to abandon Barbrey for Catelyn in order to make possible his father's ambitions.  So what kind of ambition would require the strength of marriage bond in order to seal it?  Well, in our story, that usually means a preparation for war.  Result = Barbrey lost her man.
  2. Ned was the second choice after Brandon because Barbrey's old man had ambitions of his own.  Her father had the more typical ambition of strengthening his position in the north, in his corner of the world.  We know Brandon lost his temper, forced his way into the king's chambers, and threatened to murder the ruling family of Westeros.  For his crimes, Brandon was executed.  The Starks rebelled and in order to honor the deal with the Tullys, he had to fill in for Brandon and marry Catelyn.  Result = Barbrey lost her second man.
  3. Jon Arryn rebelled.  Ned called his banners.  One being Barbrey's new husband, whom she had grown to love.  Lord Dustin died for Ned.  Ned brought his horse back but left behind his bones in Dorne.  Ned brought back his sister's bones but could not be bothered to bring back the bones of the man who gave his life for his.  Result = Barbrey lost her third man.

Lady Dustin lost all of the men she loved and it was all because of Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.  While there is no direct proof of what Rickard's intentions were for attempting to build those strong blood alliances, they usually mean preparation for war.  Stand or fall, those marriage alliances mean the conspirators, or future rebels in this case, will fight and stay together.  Marriage alliances decrease the chances of betrayal and we have been repeatedly reminded, when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  In this case, the traitors either win together or die together.  There was nothing innocent about those marriages.  Had those marriages come to pass, Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon would have alliances, sealed by blood, that would directly threaten the authority of the Targaryen king, 

Below is a passage from A Game of Thrones:

"Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant from Brandon.  You,  Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

To me, the phrase "it was all meant for Brandon" meant there was a plan in place to grant all of those things to him.  Catelyn, because of the marriage arrangement.  Winterfell, naturally because Brandon was the eldest.  A King's Hand is not normally within the reasonable ambitions of a Winterfell lord, unless there is a change in the ruling monarchs. 

Here's another passage from the same tome:

From Robert to Ned.  "We were meant to rule together.  If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection.  Well, it is not too late.  I have a son.  You have a daughter.  My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might have done."

 

The following interview, at about the 28 minute mark, George says directly that some of the lords, Robert in particular, had wanted to do their own thing and not be told what to do.  I believe there is something nefarious about Robert and Rickard's marriage arrangements.  I believe those men were planning rebellion.  Those marriage arrangements were meant to build the blood bond so that the conspirators will not be able to turn on one another when things get difficult.  They were about to embark on rebellion against an established dynasty and it would not do for anybody in their group to change their minds later on.  This is not at all dissimilar to what Walder, Robb, Catelyn, and Roose tried to do during the War of the Five Kings.  If Robb had married a Frey, Walder would not and could not have turned his back on him.  Also, in light of this, King Aerys actually had a good reason for killing Rickard, Ned, and Robert.  Ned was old enough to know what his father and Robert were up to.  Ned had a higher obligation and he should have supported the Targaryens instead by bringing his father's plans to the attention of King Aerys.  Ned was also guilty of treason even though he may not have been directly involved.  Lyanna too was part of the treason and perhaps King Aerys sent those kingsguard to the Tower of Joy to cut off her head.   Executing Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna, Robert, and Ned were perfectly reasonable given that their families were guilty of treason and plotting rebellion.

 

Edited by Bowen 747

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13 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

We know Brandon lost his temper, forced his way into the king's chambers, and threatened to murder the ruling family of Westeros.  For his crimes, Brandon was executed.  

?????

seriously 

wtf ?

Edited by SirArthur

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1 hour ago, Bowen 747 said:

Ned was old enough to know what his father and Robert were up to.  Ned had a higher obligation and he should have supported the Targaryens instead by bringing his father's plans to the attention of King Aerys.  Ned was also guilty of treason even though he may not have been directly involved.  Lyanna too was part of the treason and perhaps King Aerys sent those kingsguard to the Tower of Joy to cut off her head.

LOL

These hot takes get more and more ridiculous every day.

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Robert and Rickard were up to something.  I don't think we can dismiss the marriages of Robert to Lyanna and Brandon to Catelyn as mere lords trying to increase their social prestige.  Like you said, it's obvious to anyone with eyes and common sense what will happen to the power structure of Westeros if those marriages were allowed to happen.  Those marriages will shift the  power balance to Rickard and his cronies.  If this is true, meaning Robert and Rickard were trying to remove the Targaryens from power, then those men deserved to die as the traitors that they are. 

Edited by Tourbillon Mechanism

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This is not a new theory, though it certainly makes some unnecessary assumption that I would say are wrong.

The Northern Alliances between Stark-Arryn-Tully-Baratheon were most likely orchestrated by Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark, with Jon Arryn being the forefront man. Robert was a boy, there was no need to involve him. The lords that had fought in the Wars of the Ninepenny Kings became friends - Stefan Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark - and at least some of them made an alliance when the king began to grow unstable. Stefan was dead, so Jon Arryn took his son in for fostering, and brought the son of the Warden of the North to befriend him, and arranged a marriage with between the new stormlord and the Stark girl. Maybe Hoster Tully was part of the group as well, because not only did he betrothed his eldest to the heir to the North, but was also trying to betroth his second to the heir of Casterley Rock - Tywin had even invited Hoster to KL to discuss the dowry.

Were they planning to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty? Were they just to make a powerful alliance that might be able to force the King to abdicate in favor of the crown prince? Many think that Rhaegar orchestrated the Tourney of Harrenhal to show this forming alliance that they had a worthy potential monarch in him. I doubt that they meant to overthrow the Targaryens and place Robert on the throne.

1 hour ago, Bowen 747 said:

"Brandon.  Yes.  Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant from Brandon.  You,  Winterfell, everything.  He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens.  I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

To me, the phrase "it was all meant for Brandon" meant there was a plan in place to grant all of those things to him.

 

Of course it was the plan to give Winterfell and Catelyn to Brandon. He was the heir. The King's Hand and father to Queens was just said in insecurity. I doubt that Ned knew of the plans. That would have been an unnecessary liability, as would have Robert. I doubt he knew much more than how beautiful Lyanna was. So no, commands to execute Robert and Ned weren't reasonable. Why would Rickard tell Lyanna of his treasons? That's crazy.

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2 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

This is not a new theory, though it certainly makes some unnecessary assumption that I would say are wrong.

The Northern Alliances between Stark-Arryn-Tully-Baratheon were most likely orchestrated by Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark, with Jon Arryn being the forefront man. Robert was a boy, there was no need to involve him. The lords that had fought in the Wars of the Ninepenny Kings became friends - Stefan Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark - and at least some of them made an alliance when the king began to grow unstable. Stefan was dead, so Jon Arryn took his son in for fostering, and brought the son of the Warden of the North to befriend him, and arranged a marriage with between the new stormlord and the Stark girl. Maybe Hoster Tully was part of the group as well, because not only did he betrothed his eldest to the heir to the North, but was also trying to betroth his second to the heir of Casterley Rock - Tywin had even invited Hoster to KL to discuss the dowry.

Were they planning to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty? Were they just to make a powerful alliance that might be able to force the King to abdicate in favor of the crown prince? Many think that Rhaegar orchestrated the Tourney of Harrenhal to show this forming alliance that they had a worthy potential monarch in him. I doubt that they meant to overthrow the Targaryens and place Robert on the throne.

Of course it was the plan to give Winterfell and Catelyn to Brandon. He was the heir. The King's Hand and father to Queens was just said in insecurity. I doubt that Ned knew of the plans. That would have been an unnecessary liability, as would have Robert. I doubt he knew much more than how beautiful Lyanna was. So no, commands to execute Robert and Ned weren't reasonable. Why would Rickard tell Lyanna of his treasons? That's crazy.

Those plans were brewing long before Aerys showed instability.  Besides, if all they wanted was to remove only Aerys, they had Rhaegar.  Those men wanted to remove the Targaryens and replace them with Baratheon rule.  That is treason.

Jon Arryn was not offering an heir.  I don't think he's the ringleader of the criminals.  He knew of it and he's also a traitor but he was not the ringleader.  He was not the head of the snake in other words.  Rickard Stark was the leader. 

I would not have let the situation get as far as Harrehall.  I would have had Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon assassinated prior to the tournament.  Better yet, arrange an accident for Brandon during the jousting and then poison Rickard Stark soon after.  Robert should have had an accident during the melee.  Ashara can prove her loyalty and seduce Ned Stark.  Ned can always be killed later if he shows any hostility towards the Targaryens.  The Targaryens should not have waited this long to nip the problem in the bud.  They should have immediately started by killing off the older Starks and Robert B.

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Quote

Those plans were brewing long before Aerys showed instability.

From AWOIAF:-

Quote

The march of the king’s madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son.

1

274 AC is like eight years before the rebellion, and Aerys was off the rocker even before that. If they were really planning since before that, why wait for the weddings till Brandon was twenty? Lyanna was also sixteen, so she was a 'woman' for about three years. She could have married also till then.

9 minutes ago, Tourbillon Mechanism said:

Besides, if all they wanted was to remove only Aerys, they had Rhaegar.

So how will they use Rhaegar to remove Aerys? Just ask him to? What's the guarantee that he will do it? A huge alliance is a guarantee though.

Quote

Those men wanted to remove the Targaryens and replace them with Baratheon rule.

Why Baratheon? Why not one of them? Why not, say Casterley Rock? That will save them a lot of trouble later on. Hoster Tully was trying to marry Lysa to Jaime. Did he think that Tywin will accept Robert as his king if his son gets a wife?

22 minutes ago, Tourbillon Mechanism said:

Rickard Stark was the leader.

There is no proof of this, just like there's no proof that it wasn't Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully. Jon Arryn wasn't offering an heir simply because he didn't have one. His actual heir was a friend of Brandon, though, so he wasn't just idle about that. I don't like Tully for the position because he waited out the rebellion until his daughters got husbands. And I don't like Rickard Stark because I don't see him, isolated in the north most of his life, being able to integrate so easily in the south. I rather see Jon Arryn guiding him, stroking his ambitions for his goals of a stable kingdom.

Quote

That is treason.

No one's saying that it isn't. The OP said that Lyanna was in on it, and so was Robert and Ned, and that doesn't make sense.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

?????

seriously 

wtf ?

Right? :lol:

To the OP, I think it makes perfect sense for Starks, Tullys, Baratheons & Arryns to form alliances through marriages. Mind you, the Lannisters might have joined in if not for Jaime's while cloak. At that point it was already pretty clear Aerys II was unstable, and together these lords would have a lot more power. Not necessarily to overthrow Aerys, although that is a possibility, but also to defend and protect themselves against the Mad King. 

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3 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Ned was old enough to know what his father and Robert were up to.  Ned had a higher obligation and he should have supported the Targaryens instead by bringing his father's plans to the attention of King Aerys.  Ned was also guilty of treason even though he may not have been directly involved.  Lyanna too was part of the treason and perhaps King Aerys sent those kingsguard to the Tower of Joy to cut off her head.   Executing Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna, Robert, and Ned were perfectly reasonable given that their families were guilty of treason and plotting rebellion.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Bowen 747

How can you be sure that Ned and Lyanna were aware about conspiracy?

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I didn't need this to convince me that Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were up to something.  That YT interview confirmed it though.  At his most innocent, Rickard Stark was trying to build an alliance that could rival his King's power.  Rickard and Robert were not loyal to their King.  That is fact. 

I think Aerys had Brandon questioned during his incarceration and he only let the hotheaded wolf live long enough to lure his father out of Winterfell to execute him.   Brandon and Rickard were never going to leave King's Landing.  It was actually a good plan and it worked fabulously.  Aerys got rid of one head of the conspiracy.  I just wished he had planned better for taking out Robert and Ned.  Hiring an assassin to kill Robert is a better idea even if expensive.  The expense is nothing compared to the cost of war and the Targaryen treasury was very rich. 

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There is nothing complicated about it.  Robert wanted to be his own man.  He didn't want to have to continue to answer to anybody.  Rickard was almost certain to be the same.  Rickard probably resented having to enforce the ban on the lord's right to the first night.  It was unpopular with his vassals. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Helena Kyle said:

There is nothing complicated about it.  Robert wanted to be his own man.  He didn't want to have to continue to answer to anybody.  Rickard was almost certain to be the same.  Rickard probably resented having to enforce the ban on the lord's right to the first night.  It was unpopular with his vassals. 

 

WAT

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5 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

  It was actually a good plan and it worked fabulously.  Aerys got rid of one head of the conspiracy. 

Bwahahaha!!!  A good plan? He's killed and his kingdom is plunged into an atrocious war, what an achievement!

But of course you Targaryan Sturmtruppen can't see this, as long as Starks are killed everything's ok. This is ridiculous.

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There was no grand conspiracy by the Starks or the Baratheons or the Arryns to dethrone Aerys  . Why would they ? And according to Barbrey Dustin , it was all the schemes of the Maester Walys Flowers .

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10 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

There is nothing complicated about it.  Robert wanted to be his own man.  He didn't want to have to continue to answer to anybody.  Rickard was almost certain to be the same.  Rickard probably resented having to enforce the ban on the lord's right to the first night.  It was unpopular with his vassals. 

 

Hahahahahahahaha.

Seriously dude, check your facts before making statements like that. First Night was banned during the reign of Jahaerys and Alysanne. For reference, that's about 200 years before Roberts Rebellion. Rickard never lived during a time when First Night was legal, so your idea that this was his motivation for the marriage alliances in the south is, quite frankly, stupid.

And you are of course aware that Robert only rose up against the Targaryen's after Aerys unjustly demanded his head right? Nothing about wanting to be 'his own man' in there at all.

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Why do people think Rickard ever would have married his eldest to a Ryswell?  They weren't one of the top tier houses in the North, and had little to offer.  Sounds like a jaded woman who like all highborne, wanted to climb in position, and allowed herself to be seduced by the wild wolf, who from all accounts, got around.  Every other major family in this story was marrying other members of the lords of the seven kingdoms.  But somehow, this instance with Brandon and Catelyn is somehow special?  

Barbrey Dustin is telling the story from her point of view.  No more, no less.  

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I got the feeling that Brandon just wanted to get into Barbrey Dustin's pants.  No more, no less.  He just told her that he didn't want to marry Cat so that he can sleep with her.  I'm pretty sure, Brandon was ok with marrying Cat.  Cat is from a prominent house that could benefit Brandon greatly.  Also, Cat is beautiful.  There were little or no disadvantages for Brandon marrying Cat.

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I absolutely believe there was some sort of conspiracy swirling around Rickard Stark...

but nobody has mentioned his Maester yet!

Quote

"That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys FlowersFlowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"

When taken with Mawyn’s comments, it is at very least suspicious:

Quote

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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On 2/19/2018 at 7:11 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Hahahahahahahaha.

Seriously dude, check your facts before making statements like that. First Night was banned during the reign of Jahaerys and Alysanne. For reference, that's about 200 years before Roberts Rebellion. Rickard never lived during a time when First Night was legal, so your idea that this was his motivation for the marriage alliances in the south is, quite frankly, stupid.

And you are of course aware that Robert only rose up against the Targaryen's after Aerys unjustly demanded his head right? Nothing about wanting to be 'his own man' in there at all.

Seriously dude, if you had followed the link given by the OP to the interview at the mark indicated, George himself said so, that Robert no longer wanted to do what the Targaryens command him to do.  Robert wanted to do what he wanted rather than what the Targaryens tell him to do.  In other words, Robert no longer wanted to obey.

There is nothing unjust about executing Rickard if he was plotting against the Targaryens.  That is treason.  There is nothing unjust about executing Robert because he was part of the plot to overthrow the Targaryens. 

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