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AlaskanSandman

Dany's suicide?

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The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt.

 

 Ok, so we all know that she was protected some how by magic. Whether it was Mirri's or not. Targaryen's are not fire proof and this was a one time deal.

Rhaego is already dead, Viserys is already dead, Drogo is already dead before the pyre. Ok. 

But what about Asphyxiation. This is a word for dying from lack of oxygen. Anyone who chokes to death dies from asphyxiation. This is a medical word for a horrible thing that could happen to anyone. Asphyxiation, also known as suffocation, means to die from lack of oxygen.

As a fire of that size and being at the base of it, you would not only have a lack of oxygen but be breathing in smoke and fire.

Did Daenerys die on the Dothraki Sea?

We know Beric Dondarion retains memories of his past life. It lessens with each death, but the first death must have still remembered a lot. 

The wight that attacks Mormont on the wall seemed to retain memory of where Mormont's quarters were and such. 

Could Dany have sacrificed her own life to birth dragons? Im not sure how it would all work exactly. I honestly think her eggs were seeded with the souls of Rhaego, Drogo, and Viserys. There was some sort of genetic tie at least with Rhaego though as he's born half dragon. 

But either way, their souls seeding the eggs didn't hatch them. The ceremony at the Pyre did. 

So not really trying to get to deep on the dragon part, just mostly the question of whether or not Daenerys could have suffocated to death and hence why her body is intact yet still unalive?

Quote

 

She could smell the odor of burning flesh, no different than horseflesh roasting in a firepit. The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur's screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night. As the smoke grew thicker, the Dothraki backed away, coughing. Huge orange gouts of fire unfurled their banners in that hellish wind, the logs hissing and cracking, glowing cinders rising on the smoke to float away into the dark like so many newborn fireflies. The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her.


 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

"Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. 

 

 
 
 
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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I don't think your going to find a clinical answer for why she survived fire and asphyxiation. This is a world with dragons, giants and ice zombies. She survived because of some sort of magics and hatch dragons, I think you'v just got to take it at face value.

I don't think she died either, her heart never stopped beating and she never went unconscious,. I think Ilyrio is speaking of her metaphorical rebirth. She was once a frightened child and became a conqueror through her trails and tribulations.  

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Ok, so we all know that she was protected some how by magic. Whether it was Mirri's or not. Targaryen's are not fire proof and this was a one time deal.

Rhaego is already dead, Viserys is already dead, Drogo is already dead before the pyre. Ok. 

But what about Asphyxiation. This is a word for dying from lack of oxygen. Anyone who chokes to death dies from asphyxiation. This is a medical word for a horrible thing that could happen to anyone. Asphyxiation, also known as suffocation, means to die from lack of oxygen.

As a fire of that size and being at the base of it, you would not only have a lack of oxygen but be breathing in smoke and fire.

Did Daenerys die on the Dothraki Sea?

We know Beric Dondarion retains memories of his past life. It lessens with each death, but the first death must have still remembered a lot. 

The wight that attacks Mormont on the wall seemed to retain memory of where Mormont's quarters were and such. 

Could Dany have sacrificed her own life to birth dragons? Im not sure how it would all work exactly. I honestly think her eggs were seeded with the souls of Rhaego, Drogo, and Viserys. There was some sort of genetic tie at least with Rhaego though as he's born half dragon. 

But either way, their souls seeding the eggs didn't hatch them. The ceremony at the Pyre did. 

So not really trying to get to deep on the dragon part, just mostly the question of whether or not Daenerys could have suffocated to death and hence why her body is intact yet still unalive?

 

 
 
 

That's an interesting theory, but I don't think it's correct.

Dany eats, drinks, bleeds, enjoys sex, and is clearly alive, rather than a wight.

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I see two possibilities: either Dany died in the fire and was literally reborn or she somehow magically survived the fire and was metaphorically reborn.

My own preferrence is a literal death and rebirth. But which it really was we'll probably never know. And it does not matter either: the point is (I believe) she sacrificed herself (literally or metaphorically) and this sacrifice was an essential part of making the eggs hatch and/or bonding the hatchlings to her.

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6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, so we all know that she was protected some how by magic. Whether it was Mirri's or not. Targaryen's are not fire proof and this was a one time deal.

You're wrong about this part. Dany is flame resistant. And it's not because of some magic, and it's not a one time deal. It's her dragonblood characteristic, typical only for her.

In fighting pit she was also burning. Her hair got burned, but all the rest of her was unharmed by fire (her last chapter):

Quote

Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo’s funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit.

It's impossible not to get burns, if your hair is on fire.

This is from Barristan's last chapter:

Quote

Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning …

Her hair got burned completely, but she doesn't have burns on her scalp, or her face, or her neck. There was some insignificant burns only on her hands:

Quote

The rocks had scraped her hands raw. They are better than they were, though, she decided as she picked at a broken blister. Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing.

It seems that burns on her hands are not caused by fire. They are result of chaffed off skin, probably she damaged her hands by her dragon's scales, or on rocks.

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12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Ok, so we all know that she was protected some how by magic. Whether it was Mirri's or not. Targaryen's are not fire proof and this was a one time deal.

Rhaego is already dead, Viserys is already dead, Drogo is already dead before the pyre. Ok. 

But what about Asphyxiation. This is a word for dying from lack of oxygen. Anyone who chokes to death dies from asphyxiation. This is a medical word for a horrible thing that could happen to anyone. Asphyxiation, also known as suffocation, means to die from lack of oxygen.

As a fire of that size and being at the base of it, you would not only have a lack of oxygen but be breathing in smoke and fire.

Did Daenerys die on the Dothraki Sea?

We know Beric Dondarion retains memories of his past life. It lessens with each death, but the first death must have still remembered a lot. 

The wight that attacks Mormont on the wall seemed to retain memory of where Mormont's quarters were and such. 

Could Dany have sacrificed her own life to birth dragons? Im not sure how it would all work exactly. I honestly think her eggs were seeded with the souls of Rhaego, Drogo, and Viserys. There was some sort of genetic tie at least with Rhaego though as he's born half dragon. 

But either way, their souls seeding the eggs didn't hatch them. The ceremony at the Pyre did. 

So not really trying to get to deep on the dragon part, just mostly the question of whether or not Daenerys could have suffocated to death and hence why her body is intact yet still unalive 

She did not die a literal death like Cat or Beric. Her death and rebirth was metaphorical.  
Also, her eggs did not need to be seeded. The death that payed for  the life of the dragon's was Mirri.  THe life that payed for Drogo's healing was a horse and Dany's unborn son. 

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

snip

I think you're reaching on this one Sandman. If she was magically protected from the fire, it would be kind of silly that she would just die from lack of oxygen. Kind of like Dolorous Edd's story about Watt, missing the rocks below the Bridge of Skulls but still dead from the axe in his head.

I also don't see how Viserys could be a death that paid for a dragon's life. Viserys is nowhere near them, and if any death no matter where or when could pay for life, then the Faceless Men's entire business model is a shambles because anyone could walk into the House of Black and White, ask for a life and pay for it with the death of their mother's uncle's father's sister's grandmother who died 50 years ago from the pox.

If there were any deaths at the pyre to pay for the lives of the dragons, it was Drogo, Rhaego and MMD -- Drogo and Rhaego because their spirits had not yet been set free in the Dothraki way, and MMD because she died in the fire. And if you look at the dragon's personalities, you can almost see the spirits within: Drogon, strong, fierce, independent- Drogo; Viserion, clingy, cries when Dany pushes him away, like a baby seeking the comfort of his mother - Rhaego; and Rhaegal, somewhat aloof, leery, almost suspicious of Dany - MMD.

I think if there is anyone we can consider to be dead-and-reborn without knowing it, it's Davos. The dead body next to him when he wakes on the little island in the Blackwater, his own perhaps? And Mel's cryptic response about using someone's possessions to create a glamour: "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones." Davos' own bag of fingerbones, of course, is missing.

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If GRRM has any shred of decency, Drogon will have an oopsy and drop that harlot straight into an erupting Dragon Mount. There's your red door, honey.

Edited by Aetta
I dunt spel gud

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

You're wrong about this part. Dany is flame resistant. And it's not because of some magic, and it's not a one time deal. It's her dragonblood characteristic, typical only for her.

 

Whew, I sure am glad the author didn't explicitly tell us that Dany is not fireproof and that it was a one time thing.

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8 hours ago, Aetta said:

If GRRM has any shred of decency, Drogon will have an oopsy and drop that harlot straight into an erupting Dragon Mount. There's your red door, honey.

Lol!! 

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8 hours ago, Aetta said:

Whew, I sure am glad the author didn't explicitly tell us that Dany is not fireproof and that it was a one time thing.

Ha, yea i was just thinking the same thing. Those burn hands with puss coming out of them too, that wasn't a sign. 

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And to cover the same general thoughts ive read.

Dany eats drinks and all that, so? Beric doesn't but he's the only one we've actually sat and talked to even. Maybe, maybe not. Beric does heal though. He's not sitting there with an open wound bleeding out or something. At least not that i remember. I part of his rib cage caved in and an eye missing. The Lance through the heart didn't sound like a still open wound. 

So i at least dont understand how the whole returned from the dead thing works. Maybe there levels of how far gone your body has gone since the death and resurrection time, as in Cat. 

Maybe if you do it fast enough before there spirit fully dissipates, the  person retains more. Like how Qyburn talks of the soul lingering for a time like sent. 

I sure am glad though that when ever i need people who just "know" the answers already, i can come here hahah

And since a few have mentioned they dont think Drogo, Viserys, and or Rhaego was a sacrifice that seeded the eggs. Then Dany must be the sacrifice. Cause burning Mirri who meant nothing to her hardly seems like the sacrifice made by Azor Ahai. Unless your all trying to say that death isn't needed to pay for life? That thats just some line thrown out for effect and dramatics? 

Like i said though, it's humbling to be in the presence of so many people who "know everything" haha speaking of things as absolutes rather than what if's and maybe's. 

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Okay, here's what I think.  It will be evident from the start of the funeral ceremony what could happen.  Dany didn't jump into the fire.  She calmly walked into the fire.  Calmly, no screaming.  I'm saying, whatever her intentions might be, it becomes clear to her whether she would burn or not.  Just getting close to the fire and feeling the heat.  She knew when she got close to the fire whether she would burn or not.  Her vest burned but she herself was not burning.  That would clue anybody in whether they're immune to that fire.

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On 19/02/2018 at 2:52 PM, Megorova said:

It seems that burns on her hands are not caused by fire. They are result of chaffed off skin, probably she damaged her hands by her dragon's scales, or on rocks.

The quote you included says the exact opposite.

Quote

The rocks had scraped her hands raw. They are better than they were, though, she decided as she picked at a broken blister. Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing.

This entire passage is about her hands.  If you have ever had or seen a severe burn you'll know that the burn can "weep".  This is exactly what GRRM is describing here.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you have ever had or seen a severe burn you'll know that the burn can "weep".  This is exactly what GRRM is describing here.

Her hair was burning. But there was no burns on her scalp, or her face, or neck and shoulders. Only on her hands. And she herself said:

Quote

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit.

First sentence is about fire at Drogo's funeral pyre. And second sentence is about what happened in fighting pit.

Dany herself said/thought that fire burned only her hair, and nothing else. BOTH times. Which means, that burns on her hands were caused by something else.

If dragon fire caused those burns on her hands, then why did she thought that, it didn't touched her elsewise, only burned her hair? Who knows better what happened with her hands - we do, or she does?

Burns can be caused not only by fire, or boiling water, or steam, or chemicals. They can be also caused by chafing / scraping. Friction burns. Even though in the book there was used word "burns", it doesn't mean that those burns were caused by fire. There's even such a thing as razor burn, caused by shaving <- See? no fire, but skin is burned.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106864522/skin-burns-after-climbing-for-a-while

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forum/Climbing_Information_C2/Injury_Treatment_and_Prevention_F25/Treatment_for_rope_burn_P671886

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climbing_injuries

"Such injuries are often no worse than torn calluses, cuts, burns and bruises."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_burn

"A friction burn is a form of abrasion caused by the friction of skin rubbing against a surface. A friction burn may also be referred to as skinning, chafing, or a term named for the surface causing the burn such as rope burn, carpet burn or rug burn. Because friction generates heat, extreme cases of chafing may result in genuine burning of the outer layers of skin."

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

This entire passage is about her hands.

It's not only about her hands, it's also about what caused those "burns" on her hands:

Quote

The rocks had scraped her hands raw. They are better than they were, though, she decided as she picked at a broken blister. Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing.

"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit."

+

"The rocks had scraped her hands raw."

=

Her hands were damaged NOT by fire, those burns and blisters on her hands, are result of rock burn / friction burn / she damaged her skin on rocks, while she was climbing off that hill.

Edited by Megorova

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Her hair was burning. But there was no burns on her scalp, or her face, or neck and shoulders. Only on her hands. And she herself said:

First sentence is about fire at Drogo's funeral pyre. And second sentence is about what happened in fighting pit.

Dany herself said/thought that fire burned only her hair, and nothing else. BOTH times. Which means, that burns on her hands were caused by something else.

If dragon fire caused those burns on her hands, then why did she thought that, it didn't touched her elsewise, only burned her hair? Who knows better what happened with her hands - we do, or she does?

Burns can be caused not only by fire, or boiling water, or steam, or chemicals. They can be also caused by chafing / scraping. Friction burns. Even though in the book there was used word "burns", it doesn't mean that those burns were caused by fire. There's even such a thing as razor burn, caused by shaving <- See? no fire, but skin is burned.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106864522/skin-burns-after-climbing-for-a-while

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forum/Climbing_Information_C2/Injury_Treatment_and_Prevention_F25/Treatment_for_rope_burn_P671886

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climbing_injuries

"Such injuries are often no worse than torn calluses, cuts, burns and bruises."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_burn

"A friction burn is a form of abrasion caused by the friction of skin rubbing against a surface. A friction burn may also be referred to as skinning, chafing, or a term named for the surface causing the burn such as rope burn, carpet burn or rug burn. Because friction generates heat, extreme cases of chafing may result in genuine burning of the outer layers of skin."

It's not only about her hands, it's also about what caused those "burns" on her hands:

"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit."

+

"The rocks had scraped her hands raw."

=

Her hands were damaged NOT by fire, those burns and blisters on her hands, are result of rock burn / friction burn / she damaged her skin on rocks, while she was climbing off that hill.

The skin can be damaged in a number of ways and, yes, a friction burn can cause damage, but not on this scale and not from this cause - scrambling over rocks.  Sharp rocks will cut your hands and make them bleed but not burn them, the act of gingerly or even carelessly placing your hand is not done with enough force or speed to generate enough friction and heat to burn the top layers of the skin.  Now, if her hands were already damaged, burnt from holding on to Drogon who was bleeding hot smoking blood from several spear and arrow wounds, then sharp rocks would easily cut into her damaged skin and exposed flesh.  I've had the odd friction burn in my life and plenty of scrapes from scrambling over rocks and using her already damaged hands on jagged rocks sounds like it simply aggravates the existing injury rather than causing her hands to be burned so badly they weep a pale milky fluid (blood plasma).  Most likely she burned her hands in Drogon's blood, either when she riped the spear out of his neck or when she was holding on to him in flight.

 

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Her hair was burning. But there was no burns on her scalp, or her face, or neck and shoulders. Only on her hands. And she herself said:

First sentence is about fire at Drogo's funeral pyre. And second sentence is about what happened in fighting pit.

Dany herself said/thought that fire burned only her hair, and nothing else. BOTH times. Which means, that burns on her hands were caused by something else.

If dragon fire caused those burns on her hands, then why did she thought that, it didn't touched her elsewise, only burned her hair? Who knows better what happened with her hands - we do, or she does?

Burns can be caused not only by fire, or boiling water, or steam, or chemicals. They can be also caused by chafing / scraping. Friction burns. Even though in the book there was used word "burns", it doesn't mean that those burns were caused by fire. There's even such a thing as razor burn, caused by shaving <- See? no fire, but skin is burned.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106864522/skin-burns-after-climbing-for-a-while

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forum/Climbing_Information_C2/Injury_Treatment_and_Prevention_F25/Treatment_for_rope_burn_P671886

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climbing_injuries

"Such injuries are often no worse than torn calluses, cuts, burns and bruises."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_burn

"A friction burn is a form of abrasion caused by the friction of skin rubbing against a surface. A friction burn may also be referred to as skinning, chafing, or a term named for the surface causing the burn such as rope burn, carpet burn or rug burn. Because friction generates heat, extreme cases of chafing may result in genuine burning of the outer layers of skin."

It's not only about her hands, it's also about what caused those "burns" on her hands:

"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit."

+

"The rocks had scraped her hands raw."

=

Her hands were damaged NOT by fire, those burns and blisters on her hands, are result of rock burn / friction burn / she damaged her skin on rocks, while she was climbing off that hill.

Could be.

On 2/20/2018 at 9:40 AM, Agent Orange said:

Okay, here's what I think.  It will be evident from the start of the funeral ceremony what could happen.  Dany didn't jump into the fire.  She calmly walked into the fire.  Calmly, no screaming.  I'm saying, whatever her intentions might be, it becomes clear to her whether she would burn or not.  Just getting close to the fire and feeling the heat.  She knew when she got close to the fire whether she would burn or not.  Her vest burned but she herself was not burning.  That would clue anybody in whether they're immune to that fire.

Yes.  If she had doubts at the beginning.  Getting close would disprove or prove her original theory.  More data coming in as she got closer to the fire.  I felt like that was crossing the bridge of no return.  Dany wanted the simple life she had with Willem and Viserys in the house with the red door.  A child yearning for the happy memories of the past.  This is not unlike Arya yearning for the early years of her life with her family.  Both girls are thrown into the world very young and they can never bring back the past.  The past is gone for good.  It's about lost childhood and being suddenly thrust into adulthood.  Willem Darry and Viserys are dead.  The house with the red door is gone.  The only way is to go forward to become the mother of dragons and accepting responsibility for the weak khalasar that she inherited. 

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18 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The skin can be damaged in a number of ways and, yes, a friction burn can cause damage, but not on this scale and not from this cause - scrambling over rocks. 

You're forgetting who she is. She's a princess. I can bet that she never washed dishes after eating, never washed her clothes, never even fastened her shoes on her own. Her maids wash her body, brush her hair, help her to wear her clothes, to take off her clothes, etc. And she always had servants, even when she and Viserys were on the run, after they left their house in Braavos, when Dany was five.

In a span of her entire life, for one year, that she has spent in the Dothraki Sea, she was riding every day. That was the hardest work, that she ever did in her entire life - holding reins. And that was over a year ago. Because for the last year, since Qarth, she was mostly carried in palanquin. And she lived a life of a Queen. She was pampered, and all her needs were satisfied by her servants. Her life is very different from ours. Skin on her hands, is as tender as flower petals. Because she barely even uses her hands to do anything.

So on the rocks her tender hands were severely damaged, till the point of her skin coming off her palms.  

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