Westeros M2:TW mod

[Xray the Enforcer]

Nice posts, Bazz and Wert.

Fully agree that Levies should wear house colors only (just so I can tell who the hell they are).

Also agree that a small, recruitable faction of Drowned Men for the Iron Islands (with long sea-weedy hair and a deranged glint in their eyes ) would be great. Although I'd argue that they'd be high on morale, but low on either strength or endurance (they're aescetics, and let's face it, food deprivation only makes you so tough...)

As for peasants and crossbows -- is there a way that we can reserve the crossbows (or longbows or whatever) for Dorne? IIRC, they have access to a specific kind of bow (can't remember which wood it's made from) that most of Westeros doesn't.

Also, remember that the Dornish are only lightly mailed (actually, don't they use beaten copper and boiled leather?), so any Dorne faction will look signficicanly different than any of the other Westerosi factions.

[Ran]

Crossbows are used pretty widely. What you're thinking of is Jon's reference to his longbow being made of Dornish yew (reminiscent of RL's Spanish yew being popular for the making of the English longbows -- I suppose it has something to do with climate). The Dornish have a special bow, in the sense that they have double-curved bows which are clearly made of composite materials -- they're better suited to use on horseback, since they can have a similar draw-power to a longbow in a more compact frame.

The wildlings, too, make use of composite bows. And the Dothraki, of course. As to armor, GRRM has said they don't use copper, as such -- they plate iron/steel with copper, for the looks I suppose. But it's true the Dornish are definitely a bit different from the mainland in terms of armor -- they tend to less armor, and prefer mail and scale armors for the torso than breastplates on the theory that the latter get much hotter in the Dornish heat (I'm not strictly sure that this is true, but certainly medieval Turkish, Syrian, Egyptian, etc. troops never went for solid breastplates -- the highest end armor was mail heavily reinforced with lamellar plates -- and it may well be because they found it to be hotter.)

A Drowned Men unit sounds very cool. Later on, whenever one starts expanding, one will start to have to consider adding the Stars and Swords, and the "sparrows"...

As to peasants, thanks for the pictures. As far as appearance goes, the ME peasants are fine for Dorne. I think the NE peasants need pants. Otherwise they're okay. I believe the EE peasants are best for the North -- the pitchforks/Tridents are great, in fact, because the troops the Manderlys bring include foot wielding tridents. The pointed caps could be ditched, though...

Bazzlebane's idea of using the Russian woodsmen as the model for something is a cool idea. There are plenty of references to northmen with axes, so it could be a low-end Northern unit, or could just as easily be a low-end Ironborn unit.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I think the NE peasants need pants.

Pants are sooooo overrated, Ran.

thanks for the clarity on Dorne, BTW. This is why you're Trivia King, and I'm the bartending hussy.

[Marcus]

Excellent work. We'll give everyone a peasant unit and use the rest as faction specific. I think we may be able to make the Relgious fanatics nicely into Drowned Men. Axemen can be a low Ironborn/Northern unit. Issues with that?

Also, who should and who shouldn't have the peasant archers and peasant crossbows? Ran touched on it, but since the peasants are pretty much skinned the same way except for the weapon, let's get these units done next.

[Marcus]

Also, if you note under Hungary, they have "Transylvanian Peasants" which wield halberds. We can turn this into either a peasant unit, or into a weak infantry unit similar to axemen. Thoughts?

[Merentha]

Also, if you note under Hungary, they have "Transylvanian Peasants" which wield halberds. We can turn this into either a peasant unit, or into a weak infantry unit similar to axemen. Thoughts?

Not too keen on this idea, but if you do use it, perhaps it could be either KL-specific garrison unit or a Lannister levy?

For peasant ranged weapons-I'd say Dorne, Tully, and the North get peasant archers, the Lannisters, Tyrells, and KL get peasant crossbowmen, and the Baratheons get nothing.

[Marcus]

Okay. Note: Maps shots are up in the other topic, but don't stop posting here, too

[Bazzlebane]

Also, if you note under Hungary, they have "Transylvanian Peasants" which wield halberds. We can turn this into either a peasant unit, or into a weak infantry unit similar to axemen. Thoughts?

So you can reskin clothes but not weaponry, it makes sense to incorporate whatever variety of weapons vanilla offers. So the halberd wielding peasants could be, say, low level infantry for House Arryn or something cool like that. "Vale Guard" perhaps.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Actually, what comes to mind for the halberd wielding peasants are the rapid levies added to the Gold Cloaks before Stannis' landing in ACoK. We're told that there's a core group of Gold Cloaks who were recruited by Robert... generally good men and well trained. But after war broke out, Cersei swelled the ranks without much regard for quality.

I'd suggest possibly two ranks of Gold Cloaks... one that takes time and money to recruit and train (the higher level), and one that's a really cheap and fast recruitment, but is little more than smallfolk with better weapons.

[Bazzlebane]

That's a great suggestion.

[Rufats]

For peasant ranged weapons-I'd say Dorne, Tully, and the North get peasant archers, the Lannisters, Tyrells, and KL get peasant crossbowmen, and the Baratheons get nothing.

I recall, when Areo Hotah arrested princess Ariane, his men had crossbows, so we should remember this, when we're making Dornish missile units.

[Bazzlebane]

Agreed -- however, Dornish peasants are more likely to have bows than crossbows since it is an impoverished area. More advanced Dornish troops might have crossbows (Hotah's men would certainly be considered advanced troops).

[Merentha]

They probably would have both at high teirs, since archery is very suited to arid climates.

[k995]

Peasant units ? I wouldnt include those, dont recall to many peasant units from the books, almost all units were men at arms.

[Maester Yobjascz]

k995, I'd be very wary of contradicting Ran and the others whose member ID's < 1000 when it comes to ASOIAF content... lest thine ego be fractured by the mighty cudgel of obscure trivia.

[k995]

Okay. Cultures decided. Now, onto unit rosters.

First, please only constructive discussion. Arguing the accuracy of a unit merely because you want faction X to have it will only make this whole thing longer to accomplish. This part is going to be something that needs the most research, or trips to the Concordance

So, our factions:

Stark

Tully

Lannister

Arryn

Tyrell

Greyjoy

Martell

Baratheon/Joffrey

Baratheon/Stannis

Baratheon/Renly

Wildlings

Night's Watch

Nice, had the exact same faction list, just with 1 vasal (florent) to see how that would work out in the game.

Next, zones of recuitment. This will be how the vassal houses are "in" the first release. Specialty units that can only be found in one place will be recruited using this system. It basically stipulates that: Unit X can only be recruited at Castle Y and only if Factions T, U, or V holds aforementioned Castle Y.

For a better example:

Crannogmen will only be recruitable at Greywater Watch, and only if Stark or Tully holds that settlement. This means that if Stark loses that province, they lose that unit, but it also means if, say Lannister take the settlement, they won't be able to use the crannogmen against the North. So, if you know of any units that should be incorporated into the Zone of recuitment (Heretoforth called ZoR) system, please speak up.

How will that put the vasal houses in the game? You will just have some recruitable units with the vasal houses names? in the books they are independant and dont always do what the mayor house wants and they are mayor forces to deal with. Creating some units with a different name and some different stats will be more complicated and not very realistic

Now, how we're going to organize the chaos of unit selection. First, we will go from most known factions and regions to least known, in order to allow our skinners to work as we finish the easier factions.

Within each faction/region, it will be broken down into several segments.

1) All knowledge of the faction in Westeros context will be compiled

2) A rough formulation of units will be created ie:Crossbowmen, light infantry, heavy knights, etc

3) List from 2 will be incorporated with either A) Units existing in M2 or New units if no unit from M2 will serve our purpose.

Without further ado, we'll begin with the Westerlands and Lannister. Happy discussions

Isnt it easier to just give a simular unit roster to the culture groups with some specefic units? I dont recall all that much difference in units in the armys on the westeros continent . And quit frankly you dont need to give a 100% different units roster to every faction, its to much uneeded work for a first release .

k995, I'd be very wary of contradicting Ran and the others whose member ID's < 1000 when it comes to ASOIAF content... lest thine ego be fractured by the mighty cudgel of obscure trivia.

never had that problem

If I am wrong no doubt they can explain it if not ...

[k995]

just a question: how do you see the gameplay of the mod

[Bazzlebane]

Peasant units ? I wouldnt include those, dont recall to many peasant units from the books, almost all units were men at arms.

GRRM does not, as Wert or someone pointed out, use the word "Peasants" for common folk -- he tends to call them smallfolk or other such terms. For style reasons GRRM avoids the words peasants -- but that does not mean that armies aren't made up of conscripted serfs. After all, what is a man-at-arms, anyway, but a commoner handed a surcoat and a pole-axe? There aren't enough nobles in all of Westeros to fill the all the armies.

I know there is a lovely passage in AFFC that describes the common man soldier. I'll try and dig it out tonight when I get home. In any case, having peasant units (renamed either Smallfolk Levies or Militia or some other term Marcus & Team agree on) helps build the feel of a Feudal World that is Westeros. Ultimately, few players will bother building very many "Smallfolk Levies" and will end up building professional armies whenever they can afford to, but they still lend flavor to the setting that makes it realistic.

[Gorn]

Is it possible for turns to last less time? For example 1 turn=1 month? Because if we leave them as they are, by the end of the campaign our generals will be great-great-grandsons of book characters.

[Ran]

k995,

From ACoK,

The Greatjon took too many. Half our harvest is gone to seed for want of arms to swing the scythes.

Professional soldiers (i.e., men-at-arms) don't swing scythes. And straight from GRRM, a link I've posted earlier:

What is the relative composition of archers (or horse-archers), infantry and cavalry?

Infantry outnumbered cavalry by a considerable margin, but for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training.

Emphasis mine.