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Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod

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Is it possible for turns to last less time? For example 1 turn=1 month? Because if we leave them as they are, by the end of the campaign our generals will be great-great-grandsons of book characters.

Yep, this is pretty easy to fix. You can actually do this yourself in Medieval 2 by adjusting the 'dscr' files. As I understand it, you can switch the game up to 550 or 900 turns. What those turns represent can also be changed: one week or one month or whatever.

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I've heard that you can't set the game to slower than 1 turn=6 months, and anything shorter than that rounds up to 6 mos. But I haven't verified that myself, I've just seen that posted on the totalwar boards.

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That's true. Anything below and the game disregards it and uses 1 turn = six months. However, there's way to get around this. You can set the season length, the aging of the characters, and you can have years shown as turns remaining.

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A few thoughts on trying to add some more 'Westerosi' flavor to the mod...

Can we control how much impact the seasons/weather have? If the war doesn't end before winter comes... it might get *really* messy.

Another possibility to consider... an 'Others' faction... NPC only. Starts in the far north, and modified to not get started until a predesignated Winter. Gives the Night's Watch and the Wildlings something to do. Granted, there'd be precious little textual support for any of the details... but it'd be kind of fun. Anyway, another thought for the future.

Another fun (though unnecessary) possibility... From reading the M2TW thread on the Entertainment forum, it seems that there are bodyguard units and other 'special' units... including possibly unique units. I'm thinking it would be fun to have a direwolf unit for the Starks... I don't know if the mechanics would allow this, but here's my thought process: take a unique 'special' unit (i.e., there should only be one ever available), make it a mounted unit, and skin the horse to look like a wolf... and skin the rider to be effectively invisible. The unit would have moderate combat values, but might possibly reduce the effectiveness of opposing cavalry slightly...

Shadowbaby assassin units for the Stannis faction... if possible, recruiting such units would have a deleterious impact on the health of the leader... and would require the survival of the Melisandre unit (if such exists). Melisandre (if this is possible) might have a defensive bonus against fire-based weaponry? (She seems to suggest such to Davos in ASoS when he challenges her about how the Battle on the Blackwater went.)

I can't think of any other similar units that might be available...

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Mel's "Shadowbaby" aspect might be better aped by having a Red Priest unit be able to have the Assasin unit functionality, if that can be done. And to be Mel-like, the Red Priest should probably look like the Princesses rather than the stodgy priests in the game now...

But this is getting off on quite a tangent from the unit discussion.

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Dirwolfs cant be done. We could skin a horse to look like a wolf, however it'd still be shaped like a horse. Do you remember when I said we couldn't change weapons? This is sort-of the same thing. In game, there are models, which are like the resin miniatures and whatnot. These are unchangeable. However we can put a skin ontop. Like, repainting the miniature. However, painting a miniature horse grey and giving it big teeth, doesn't make it a wolf. Sorry.

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Marcus -

Fair enough... I was just trying to brainstorm up some options... didn't expect many of them to survive the winter of reality. :)

Have we resolved issues with Dornish peasants? What's the next topic?

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While the conversation might be moving on from peasants (or whatever they may be called...), I thought this passage would go a little further to answer the poster who asked if peasants really were a part of the armies in Westeros. It makes it quite clear that they are. It also provides a bit of a visual description.

In A Feast For Crows, Septon Maribald (a Priest of the Seven) is explaining to Brienne and her companions about "Broken Men", GRRM's term for awol soldiers gone outlaw:

A Feast For Crows, Pgs. 374-375, American Hardcover

"Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, oftimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle."

The passage continues, and in my opinion goes on to be one of the most beautiful and evocative musings on war in epic fantasy. But the part I quoted above is what is relevant to both prove that armies were made of peasant levies and gives a bit of what they might look like.

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On the subject of Melisandre:

One can certainly make an Assassin agent as Melisandre (changing it to look like a princess is a cinch). Furthermore, there is the possibility we can make inquisitors into her (nothing quite like burning someone at the stake..)

I do need some help with how we want to name the sides. Currently, using names like House Baratheon of Storm's End/King's Landing/Dragonstone are horribly long.

Tenatively, I have put the factions in the campaign named as:

The Tyrells

The Starks

The Greyjoys

The Martells

The Lannisters

The Tullys

The Arryns

Renly Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon

Joffrey Baratheon

The Wildlings

The Night's Watch

Of course, this means that we have to add some prefixes/adjectives to describe things. For instance, in game, when you mouse over a French castle, it says "French Castle". For the Martells, one would think a simple text fix to "Dornish Castle" would do the work, but how does that fit in with the other factions? Would it be Baratheon Castle? Stannis' Castle (awkward)? Riverlands Castle?

I do know that men from the Westerlands are Westermen/man and we have the Ironborn and Dornish to work with. But what about the other factions? Or should we just stick with house names such as "Martell Castle" or "Lannister City". That of course creates its own problems of what to do with the Baratheons, or do we just leave that as Baratheon and hope the colors and banners do not confuse.

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The multitude of Baratheons does add a bit to the confusion. It might simplify things a bit by dropping it from Joffrey's faction name -- that faction could just be called the Iron Throne, or The Crownlands.

I do think that when we have appropriate terms -- Dornish or Wildling, for example, that it be used because it flavors the world. But in most cases -- Lannister, Tyrell -- it's probably just easiest to use Lannister Town or Tyrell Castle. Lannister Town means more to most players than Westerlands Town, and it makes more sense once a faction expands outside their traditional borders.

Sorry I'm not resolving your questions...just musing on them...

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GRRM does not, as Wert or someone pointed out, use the word "Peasants" for common folk -- he tends to call them smallfolk or other such terms. For style reasons GRRM avoids the words peasants -- but that does not mean that armies aren't made up of conscripted serfs. After all, what is a man-at-arms, anyway, but a commoner handed a surcoat and a pole-axe? There aren't enough nobles in all of Westeros to fill the all the armies.

Man at arms are almost always professional soldiers, a big difference with conscripts .

I have the books on disk here looked up levies and smallfold and even toughthere are not many references they do occur

A good one is :

And yet there was sense in what they said. This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came . . . but not forever. "Marching is all very well," she said to her son, "but where, and to what purpose? What do you mean to do?"

So no ill equiped "peasants"

also:

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.

His uncle would lead the center. Ser Kevan had raised his standards above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines, to east and west of the road,

598 GEORGE R.R. MARTIN

and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them, pikemen formed squares; behind were rank on rank of men-at-arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded Ser Kevan and the lords bannermen Lefford, Lydden, and Serrett with all their sworn retainers.

The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More than three quarters of the knights were there, massed together like a great steel fist. Ser Addam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standardbearer shook it out; a burning tree, orange and smoke. Behind him flew Ser Flement's purple unicorn, the brindled boar of Crakehall, the bantam rooster of Swyft, and more.

His lord father took his place on the hill where he had slept. Around him, the reserve assembled; a huge force, half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord Tywin almost always chose to command the reserve; he would take the high ground and watch the battle unfold below him, committing his forces when and where they were needed most.

Even from afar, his lord father was resplendent. Tywin Lannister's battle armor put his son Jaime's gilded suit to shame. His greatcloak was sewn from countless layers of cloth-of-gold, so heavy that it barely stirred even when he charged, so large that its drape covered most of his stallion's hindquarters when he took the saddle. No ordinary clasp would suffice for such a weight, so the greatcloak was held in place by a matched pair of miniature lionesses crouching on his shoulders, as if poised to spring. Their mate, a male with a magnificent mane, reclined atop Lord Tywin's greathelm, one paw raking the air as he roared. All three lions were wrought in gold, with ruby eyes. His armor was heavy steel plate, enameled in a dark crimson, greaves and gauntlets inlaid with ornate gold scrollwork. His rondels were golden sunbursts, all his fastenings were gilded, and the red steel was burnished to such a high sheen that it shone like fire in the light of the rising sun.

Tyrion could hear the rumble of the foemen's drums now. He remembered Robb Stark as he had last seen him, in his father's high seat in the Great Hall of Winterfell, a sword naked and shining in his hands. He remembered how the direwolves had come at him out of the shadows, and suddenly he could see them again, snarling and snapping, teeth bared in his face. Would the boy bring his wolves to war with him? The thought made him uneasy.

The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think

A GAME OF THRONES 599

to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man's fool.

The van was massing on the left. He saw the standard first, three black dogs on a yellow field. Ser Gregor sat beneath it, mounted on the biggest horse Tyrion had ever seen. Bronn took one look at him and grinned. "Always follow a big man into battle."

Tyrion threw him a hard look. "And why is that?"

"They make such splendid targets. That one, he'll draw the eyes of every bowman on the field."

Laughing, Tyrion regarded the Mountain with fresh eyes. "I confess, I had not considered it in that light."

Clegane had no splendor about him; his armor was steel plate, dull grey, scarred by hard use and showing neither sigil nor ornament. He was pointing men into position with his blade, a two-handed greatsword that Ser Gregor waved about with one hand as a lesser man might wave a dagger. "Any man runs, I'll cut him down myself," he was roaring when he caught sight of Tyrion. "Imp! Take the left. Hold the river. If you can."

The left of the left. To turn their flank, the Starks would need horses that could run on water. Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. "Look," he shouted, pointing with his axe. "The river." A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. "That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes."

Shagga had an axe in either hand. He smashed them together and made them ring. "Halfman!" he shouted. Other Stone Crows picked up the cry, and the Black Ears and Moon Brothers as well. The Burned Men did not shout, but they rattled their swords and spears. "Halfman! Ha Ifm a n! Ha 1fm a n! "

Tyrion turned his courser in a circle to look over the field. The ground was rolling and uneven here; soft and muddy near the river, rising in a gentle slope toward the kingsroad, stony and broken beyond it, to the cast. A few trees spotted the hillsides, but most of the land had been cleared and planted. His heart pounded in his chest in time to the drums, and under his layers of leather and steel his brow was cold with sweat. He watched Ser Gregor as the Mountain rode up and down the line, shouting and gesticulating. This wing too was all cavalry, but where the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lancers, the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers

600 GEORGE R.R. MARTIN

in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers' rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

Crow food," Bronn muttered beside him, giving voice to what Tyrion had left unsaid. He could only nod. Had his lord father taken leave of his senses? No pikes, too few bowmen, a bare handful of knights, the ill-armed and unarmored, commanded by an unthinking brute who led with his rage . . . how could his father expect this travesty of a battle to hold his left?

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.

Again no pitch forked armes untrained "peasants" the militia units seems to fit the role of levies and can be used fot that I think. The peasant units of the game can be scrapped.

I know there is a lovely passage in AFFC that describes the common man soldier. I'll try and dig it out tonight when I get home. In any case, having peasant units (renamed either Smallfolk Levies or Militia or some other term Marcus & Team agree on) helps build the feel of a Feudal World that is Westeros. Ultimately, few players will bother building very many "Smallfolk Levies" and will end up building professional armies whenever they can afford to, but they still lend flavor to the setting that makes it realistic.

The militia units have there role in the game and in the books and should have a usefull function, A all out army of man at arms and knights should be very expensive and very high ukeep.

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k995,

From ACoK,

Professional soldiers (i.e., men-at-arms) don't swing scythes. And straight from GRRM, a link I've posted earlier:

Emphasis mine.

With would correspond with the militia units of the current game, less equped and less trained then men at arms but able to holdits own .

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Again no pitch forked armes untrained "peasants" the militia units seems to fit the role of levies and can be used fot that I think

Err, aren't you reading your own (overly long quote):

... the ill-armed and unarmored

There are smallfolk conscripts, fulfilling a feudal duty to provide service for a time, and they are, indeed, generally ill-equipped. This fits what GRRM has already stated.

If you want another example, re-read "The Sworn Sword" and see what sort of "smallfolk militia" Ser Eustace Osgrey can depend on -- and consider the fact that it's clear that the troops he took with him during the Blackfyre Rebellion were more-or-less of the same quality. A "militia" is a group that trains with some sort of regularity -- even if once or twice a year -- in preparation for fighting. This is _not_ the norm in Westeros, where largely it's rural. It's towns and cities which provide militias, historically, not the rural countryside ruled by minor knights and lords, and it is -- again -- clearly what we see both in the books and from GRRM's remarks. "little discipline, and even less training" doesn't sound like a troop that can generally "hold its own".

ETA: One more example from AFfC:

At a place called Sow’s Horn they found a tough old knight named Ser Roger Hogg squatting stubbornly in his towerhouse with six men-at-arms, four crossbowmen, and a score of peasants.

Not spearmen, not militia, not pike -- just plain peasants, fulfilling their obligation, and no doubt badly equipped, badly trained, and with little enough morale.

I'll just finish up by saying that there's plenty of evidence that whatever the game considers to be peasant units clearly seem to exist in Westeros, which is a setting modelled on the Middle Ages and which has amply shown that sometimes the people involved in fighting are little more than farmers and crofters who are given a spear, maybe a padded jack, and told to go fight for their lord.

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My only, minor contributions to this argument are that the tanners, fieldhands, and such would still be considered 'smallfolk'. They may not fit the classical conception of a peasant as a feudal 'serf' working fields, but they're still common men, untrained in combat and sent off to war to fill out the ranks.

Second, it doesn't logically follow from 'Tywin's main army didn't contain smallfolk levies' to 'smallfolk aren't legitimate units in Westeros'. It seems more likely that Tywin *chose* not to raise smallfolk for his forces, and to have a more veteran host. The citations provided by Ran and Ser Baz suggest that other Lords, those not so wealthy as Tywin, *did* resort to raising smallfolk levies.

This being the case, 'peasant' units *should* be available. You don't have to 'build' them for your host if you don't want to.

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Again no pitch forked armes untrained "peasants" the militia units seems to fit the role of levies and can be used fot that I think. The peasant units of the game can be scrapped.

The militia units have there role in the game and in the books and should have a usefull function, A all out army of man at arms and knights should be very expensive and very high ukeep.

Why did you ignore the quote I posted in Post #128? That made it very clear that there are, in fact, pitchfork wielding armies. They are completely, in fact explicitly (again, check post #128) appropriate to Westeros.

Plus, while pretty much any other unit is better in a battle, I've had situations in game where I was broke and had to raise some forces to desperately defend a city from the army I can see coming -- and recruited peasants. They can come in handy in the overall game balance.

Honestly, I can't for the life of me understand why you're trying hard to argue against having peasant equivalent armies included in the mod -- no one is suggesting that there not also be the militia units, pike units, etc. above them. We simply started the conversation at the "bottom" of the unit tree and are working our way up, per Marcus' request...

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Err, aren't you reading your own (overly long quote):

There are smallfolk conscripts, fulfilling a feudal duty to provide service for a time, and they are, indeed, generally ill-equipped. This fits what GRRM has already stated.

Wich is 1 small part of 1/4th of the entire army

Most of the descriptions posted fit militia units, units with little training but equiped with decent weapons (parts of armor, pikes, swords or bows) not pitch forked armed untrained peasants.

If you want another example, re-read "The Sworn Sword" and see what sort of "smallfolk militia" Ser Eustace Osgrey can depend on -- and consider the fact that it's clear that the troops he took with him during the Blackfyre Rebellion were more-or-less of the same quality. A "militia" is a group that trains with some sort of regularity -- even if once or twice a year -- in preparation for fighting. This is _not_ the norm in Westeros, where largely it's rural. It's towns and cities which provide militias, historically, not the rural countryside ruled by minor knights and lords, and it is -- again -- clearly what we see both in the books and from GRRM's remarks. "little discipline, and even less training" doesn't sound like a troop that can generally "hold its own".

Read the battle scenes like the ones I posted , the vast mayority of the armies is knights, men at arms and conscripts or militia , only small parts or peasants plukked from the fields

ETA: One more example from AFfC:

Not spearmen, not militia, not pike -- just plain peasants, fulfilling their obligation, and no doubt badly equipped, badly trained, and with little enough morale.

I am not saying they dont ecxist just that they dont make up large parts of the armies .

I'll just finish up by saying that there's plenty of evidence that whatever the game considers to be peasant units clearly seem to exist in Westeros, which is a setting modelled on the Middle Ages and which has amply shown that sometimes the people involved in fighting are little more than farmers and crofters who are given a spear, maybe a padded jack, and told to go fight for their lord.

Militia's also are farmers and crofters the only difference is that they have a small amount of training and actual weapons

But seeing I can seasily mod them out myself its the last I am going to say about it.

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Returning from the tangent, and onto the subject of naming...

Another possibility would be to use the various sigils as names?

Rose -The Tyrells

Wolves - The Starks

Squids - The Greyjoys

Suns - The Martells

Lions - The Lannisters

Fish - The Tullys

Hawk - The Arryns

Crowned Stag - Renly Baratheon

Fiery Heart - Stannis Baratheon

Iron Throne - Joffrey Baratheon

Wildlings - The Wildlings

Crows - The Night's Watch

This may not make that much a difference, but it provides an alternative option that distinguishes between the three Baratheon lines.

I am not saying they dont ecxist just that they dont make up large parts of the armies .

If you admit they exist, then you *must* admit that they deserve to be units in the game. You *cannot* logically accept their existence and also deny putting them into the game.

What proportion they form of any particular host is up to the commander, the resources available, and the type of battle planned. If you think that smallfolk levies have no place in a host, don't include them when you play.

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This being the case, 'peasant' units *should* be available. You don't have to 'build' them for your host if you don't want to.

Last thing: unfortunatly the AI doesnt think that way and will build them, seeing the unit limit in armies this will weaken ai, thats why most mods will eleminate peasant units.

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Wich is 1 small part of 1/4th of the entire army

Most of the descriptions posted fit militia units, units with little training but equiped with decent weapons (parts of armor, pikes, swords or bows) not pitch forked armed untrained peasants.

Read the battle scenes like the ones I posted , the vast mayority of the armies is knights, men at arms and conscripts or militia , only small parts or peasants plukked from the fields

I am not saying they dont ecxist just that they dont make up large parts of the armies .

Militia's also are farmers and crofters the only difference is that they have a small amount of training and actual weapons

But seeing I can seasily mod them out myself its the last I am going to say about it.

Okay, now I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but your post is so incongrous I feel I have to reply. First, from my earlier quote from AFFC:

"Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, oftimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. "

That doesn't qualify as, in your words, "not pitch forked armed untrained peasants"?

And you are, in fact, arguing that they should not exist, because you stated they should not be in the mod at all -- you're backtracking.

Even in the mod, they won't make up the majority of the armies -- neither the AI nor the player builds very many peasants, as long as they can afford something better. In fact, they are used so rarely, I don't see why it'd be worth your effort to personally edit them out.

Again, as I said in my post, nowhere did Marcus or a member of the mod team indicate that higher class levies, professional armies and armored horse wouldn't be in the mod, so I'm not sure what the problem even is.

In any case, I think it is time we moved on.

Last thing: unfortunatly the AI doesnt think that way and will build them, seeing the unit limit in armies this will weaken ai, thats why most mods will eleminate peasant units.

In my experience playing the game, the AI rarely builds peasants. They build too many crossbows and trebuchets, but not too many peasants. And if they do, that's the hole in their line I attack. :cool:

@ MY's suggestion:

I wouldn't want each faction to be known by their sigil (Starks should Starks, not Direwolves), but perhaps it's the way to go for Stannis to reduce the Baratheon usage. His faction could be "The Fiery Heart" and Joffrey's "The Crownlands" while Lannisters, Tyrells, and Starks still use their House names. I think that works. Renly's faction could be The Baratheons since he's the one with the loyalty of the Storm Lords, the historic region of Baratheon rule.

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