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Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod

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Returning from the tangent, and onto the subject of naming...

Another possibility would be to use the various sigils as names?

Rose -The Tyrells

Wolves - The Starks

Squids - The Greyjoys

Suns - The Martells

Lions - The Lannisters

Fish - The Tullys

Hawk - The Arryns

Crowned Stag - Renly Baratheon

Fiery Heart - Stannis Baratheon

Iron Throne - Joffrey Baratheon

Wildlings - The Wildlings

Crows - The Night's Watch

This may not make that much a difference, but it provides an alternative option that distinguishes between the three Baratheon lines.

Like the names better and Joffrey Baratheon should be with the Lannisters, he is controlled by them. The remaining 2 Baratheon factions arent a problem I would think.

If you admit they exist, then you *must* admit that they deserve to be units in the game. You *cannot* logically accept their existence and also deny putting them into the game.

Why not? A game is realism vs gameplay 2 or 3 peasant units in an army would be the equivalent of several thousand pitch fork wielding perasants in the books.

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I believe MY was meaning the descriptions for the castles and towns, not the faction names themselves. Joff's could certainly say "Crownland" Renly's could say "Stormland" and seeing as Stannis is the true heir, his could say

Baratheon. In theory we could give Baratheon to Renly, but then what would we give Stannis? Only Dragonstone itself is on Dragonstone...

Edit: Didn't we already argue which side Joff is on? Come on, now we're really beating a dead horse. If you're not going to post anything contructive, please don't post at all. Thanks.

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How about Renly would be Lord of House Baratheon, Joffrey would be Lord of the Crownlands (or Lord of the Iron Throne), and Stannis would be Lord of the Narrow Sea? Stannis is called the King in the Narrow Sea in the appendices, after all. He may lose Dragonstone and conquer other lands elsewhere, but that would still be his original home base. However sticking your pointer over Karhold (for example) and it saying 'The Narrow Sea' wouldn't make much sense. 'The King in the Narrow Sea' may be too unwieldy. The Firey Heart may be a good compromise.

Otherwise, I'd say just call them King's Landing, Storm's End and Dragonstone. They are all much more dependent on their capitals than other factions (especially if we don't give Storm's End another city), so losing them would be a major blow and they'd have to recover it quickly.

I'd say make the 'territory description' the house (House Stark, House Martell etc). Agreed having House Tyrell conquer Riverrun and then Riverrun suddenly being in the Reach would be odd, whilst saying it is now controlled by House Tyrell makes more sense.

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Returning from the tangent, and onto the subject of naming...

Another possibility would be to use the various sigils as names?

Rose -The Tyrells

Wolves - The Starks

Squids - The Greyjoys

Suns - The Martells

Lions - The Lannisters

Fish - The Tullys

Hawk - The Arryns

Crowned Stag - Renly Baratheon

Fiery Heart - Stannis Baratheon

Iron Throne - Joffrey Baratheon

Wildlings - The Wildlings

Crows - The Night's Watch

This may not make that much a difference, but it provides an alternative option that distinguishes between the three Baratheon lines.

Ok, hey everyone, new to this forum, been on the twcenter.com one talking with Marcus, anyway just a minor thing. I like the idea of this, but at least symbols of the Major Houses correct. Tyrells= Thorned Rose. Starks= Running Wolf. Greyjoys= Kracken. Martells= Sun & Spear. Lannisters= Roaring Lion. Tullys= Leaping Trout. Arryns= Moon & Eagle. Renly= Crowned Stag. Stannis= Fiery Heart with Crowned Stag head in middle. The rest is good.

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Personally, I find calling a faction by its sigil instead of its actual name rather silly. I mean, for Carthage you wouldn't say "Blue Crescent Moon Rotated 90 Degrees on a White Field" It's ridiculous.

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Yeah, I guess I agree. Either House or Region works better than heraldic symbol. But the correct terms are useful for the descriptive text and so on. Did you want to move on to discussing further unit types?

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Right now our main focus is the map, the Ai, and getting deplomacy to work. I've been looking at Lusted's Land's to Conquer mod, Shaba Wangy's diplomacy mod, and the Ultimate AI mod, to name a few. There are some smaller mods that do very specific things, but these three include most of the smaller ones. Has anyone played with any of these three, or have another mod that may be useful? I'm considering using adopted versions of some of these in Westeros.

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Well, since you bring it up...I've been playing with Dearmad's Privy Council etc etc mod. You're probably familiar with it (it's on TWCenter), but for those that aren't, it's primary function is to add ancilaries to the family members/generals characters to indicate their titles within that Faction's Kingdom. For instance, if a general conquers a region, they become Duke of ____ as indicated by their ancillary. That can then affect their traits.

In addition to the ones related to conquest, there are also assignable ancillaries such as "Marshall" or the "Privy Seal". Some of these ancillaries appear based on a city having a certain advanced building. Different triggers for different ancillaries.

These ancillaries are transferable from one character to another -- if you don't like the holder of the Privy Seal, you can drag it over to a different family member.

One way that could be converted to Westeros would be for the King's Small Council. For Joffrey's faction, Tyrion Lannister could start as a family member holding the "King's Hand" ancillary. That ancillary would add certain bonuses (or negatives) appropriate to being the King's Hand (taxation bonus? Lower recruitment costs?). If Joffrey (the player) tires of Tyrion, someone else could be assigned status as the Hand.

In dearmad's mod, both the Player and the AI get to use these ancillaries.

Ancillaries could be used in different ways as well -- Robb Stark could have a Grey Wind ancillary (non-transferable) that gives him and his armies bonus to movement, etc. Bronze Yohn Royce could have a special armor ancillary (transferable) that would give his character bonus hit points.

Frankly, the possibilities are endless. I'd recommend checking out dearmad's mod for ideas.

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I think that was his initial intent, yes, but he's developed the idea a little further (there have been about five versions as he develops ideas and improves the coding).

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Alright I was wondering if people could give me a possible breakdown of the hierarchy of Septons? In game, there are Priests -> Bishops -> Cardinals. I was wondering if there was any hierarchy of septons? I realize that the big guy is the High Septon and Septas are female but is there anything otherwise?

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The Most Devout are the rank under the High Septon, and seem to correspond to cardinals. Then of course you've got the monk-types -- 'brothers' are generally how they're referred to, though for the most part no one is ever referred to as 'Brother So-and-so'.

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The Most Devout are the rank under the High Septon, and seem to correspond to cardinals. Then of course you've got the monk-types -- 'brothers' are generally how they're referred to, though for the most part no one is ever referred to as 'Brother So-and-so'.

Hmm do any of the other religions have any such hierarchy? I realize that the Old Gods don't have any sort of religious system but the Drowned God and the Lord of Light do.

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There are drowned priests and their acolytes, the drowned men. There doesn't seem to be a central authority among the priesthood of the Drowned God, however.

We don't know what hierarchy the red priests have, though one would assume some sort of acolytes in training and -- given that they have temples -- some sort of level of priest who heads the larger temples with lesser priests under him/her.

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While working on the campaign map earlier today, I started to think about the city and castle situation in the game. This is a topic worthy of discussion and input from people.

For those who don't know it, Medieval 2 has one settlement per province. Capturing that settlement grants you control of that province. Each settlement in game can be chosen to be a castle or a city.

The types of cities are in order of size from smallest to greatest (in parenthesis, the type of fortification around the settlement):

Village (No wall)

Town (Wooden Palisade)

Large Town (Wooden Wall - units can be stationed on top of this wooden wall)

City (Low stone wall)

Large City (Taller stone wall)

Huge City (Huge tall stone wall)

For castles:

Motte and Bailey (Wooden palisade wall)

Wooden Castle (Wooden Wall - akin to Large Town walls)

Castle (Stone wall)

Fortress (Two rings of stone walls)

Citadel (Three rings of stone walls)

Each settlement in the battle mode has a town square where if the besieger holds for three minutes grants them victory (so as not to have to chase after each individual unit to win). Castle settlements have a keep next to the square - the keep itself can have troops on the walls on top but itself does not need to be captured. The amount of time required to capture a city can apparently be changed meaning that we may potentially require a player to storm the keep to win.

I have currently removed the ability for castles and cities to be converted from one to another on the campaign map. This reason is two fold:

First, realistically speaking, the timescale of this campaign is in weeks per turn, not years like vanilla M2TW. Meaning that it would not be feasible for anyone to convert a town into a keep that easily. After all, castles take years if not decades to build. And another part of Westeros is that certain castles have been around for thousands of years... Winterfell comes to mind. It makes little sense for a castle to be around for 8000 years only to be turned into a city with a weeks notice.

Second, removing the ability to convert cities and castles makes each existing settlement in game at the beginning of the game that much more valuable. Now King's Landing can be allowed to be relatively unique as the biggest city to start the game off.

Anyways, in vanilla M2TW, settlements are allowed to upgrade once they had reached a certain population #. The settlement level and the population required to reach that level follow:

Town 400

Large Town 2000

City 6000

Large City 12000

Huge City 24000

Fortress 4500

Citadel 9000

Motte & Bailey -> Wooden Castle -> Castle are not dependent on population

The key is, these populations can be changed or made to be dependent on population.

For instance, in one of the existing mods out there (Lands to Conquer), they change it to require 60000 people to upgrade to a huge city.

Now what possibilties does this add to our mod?

Well first, with cities -> castle -> cities conversions removed, we have the potential to make the bigger sized settlements unique.

For instance, there was a lot of debate over whether Sunspear should be a city or castle and what to do with King's Landing. Well, castles in the game are simulated as being actually smaller towns encircled by a wall with a keep.

In the case of Sunspear, a castle within the Shadow City, this can be effectively modeled in the battle map as a Fortress type settlement. The reason? The first ring of walls would simulate the walls surrounding the city (as it does on the battle map, as 95% of the buildings are between the 1st and 2nd rings). The second ring of walls would be the walls around the keep within the city.

Now where does this leave us? Well, if we make the population requirements for an upgrade to certain upgrades impossible, then we can effectively limit settlements to a certain size.

For instance, if we make Fortress & Citadel unreacheable, then Motte & Bailey -> Wooden Castle -> Stone Castle would be the only progression of castle structures. To do this, we can simply make it so that a Stone Castle's maximum population is say, 5000, while it requires 10,000 to upgrade to a Fortress, thus making it impossible to reach.

Then, we can make Fortress & Citadel into unique settlement types in the same fashion. Thus we can make a Fortress into a city/castle hybrid by giving the Fortress settlement some city buildings such as trade buildings (markets), agent buildings (brothels and so on), while still allowing it to produce castle-built troops + being harder to besiege. Then when the campaign map starts, only a few select and important settlements will be Fortress status. For instance, Sunspear, Riverrun, and Highgarden weren't the most formidable castles defensive wise (still strong nontheless), but were very important economic and strategic locations.

We can turn Citadels into the most formidable defensive castles/strongholds. For instance, Winterfell and Harrenhal can start the game as Citadels, which wouldn't produce a great amount of trade/economic power, but would be extremely defendable (three ringed castles are near impossible to breach in one try if defended heavily and properly) and produce the elite of troops.

One problem with this situation is that the game sets requirements for certain buildings based on size. There is a code line that states settelement_min as the minimum settlement required for that buildling to be built. For instance, settlement_min large_city means that the settlement must be at least a large city (or fortress) to be built. However, if Fortresses are given economic buildlings, then Citadels would get them as well. There is a work-around, however - we can code it so that Citadel regions cannot build those buildlings.

This too creates some interesting possibilities for cities - King's Landing may be the only city to be a Huge City status in game. In turn, at Huge City status, King's Landing can produce knights and other typically castle-only units, thus not only helping balance Joffrey's faction, but also make King's Landing a very prized possession. It's worth discussing whether cities can be upgraded from Large City to Huge City (and thus possibly gain the ability to purchase knights and so on a'la King's Landing) or whether we should limit city development/growth to Large Cities only - thus they would play a mostly economic (and naval buildling) role.

Thus my proposal to settlements i this:

- Change progression of cities to: village -> town -> large town -> city -> large city.

These cities will provide considerable economic power (Trade buildlings, agent buildlings, etc.) as well as militia units and perhaps we should mod them to be able to build levied peasants and spearmen at the lower levels only instead of militia (after all, small villages through towns probably would call local farmers and townsfolk as levies rather than hire militia. Cities are different of course).

- Change progression of castles to Motte & Bailey -> Wooden Castle -> Castle.

The progression will be based on population AND money now - upgrading to a stone castle from a wooden castle will be a long and expensive process but one that provides ultimately the better defensive position & troop recruitment ability. In Westeros it seems that most holdfasts and holds that we see in the book are actually Motte & Bailey or Wooden Castles (wood defenses) basically. Actual stone castles aren't all that common. This should keep the game from being a tough siege fest as well as attacking wood castles are far easier...

-Change Fortress -> City/Castle Hybrid.

This will be a unique tier that can only be achieved by settlements that start off as fortresses. These city/castle hybrids will be able to build many city structures such as agent buildlings, militia, trade as well as castle units such as knights, archers, etc. as well as being defendable. A lethal combination that will be available only to a few specific provinces to be determined (Sunspear and Riverrun and Highgarden seem like a few likely candidates right now).

-Change Citadel -> Ultimate Castle

This will be like Fortress and be unique in that only those settlements that start off as citadels can ever be citadels. They will be the hardest castles to besiege and will be able to recruit the most and best units for their side. Likely citadels will be Harrenhal, Winterfell, Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Dragonstone, etc. (basically any really impregnable castle in westeros). They will not have the economic bonuses that city-castle hybrids do (though possibly lesser trade buildings to boost economics anyway).

-Change Huge City -> Unique Cities.

Basically the Huge City will be reserved for King's Landing only. It will be the only city that allows the construction of the Great Sept of Baelor (which should be built already anyways), the ability to build knights and other castle-specific units, all the while maintaining a huge economic power. Perhaps enable this as the only city for foreign-guilds / sellsword companies to be able to be built there as well.

Any thoughts/ideas on this proposal?

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ETA: I'm not sure Winterfell qualifies as an 'impregnable' castle; I at least never got the impression that it was as heavily fortified as the other major citadels (Storm's End, Harrenhall, The Red Keep). Admittedly some time since I last read the books.

There are drowned priests and their acolytes, the drowned men. There doesn't seem to be a central authority among the priesthood of the Drowned God, however.

Though there's no central authority like the pope, perhaps it should be possible that a family member/general could be assigned an ancillary (e.g. Priest of the Drowned God or similar), like Aeron, who would have certain (unifying) religious functions?

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One thought here on the city/castle progression... while it makes sense for population to grow on the original games' timescale (where years and decades pass very quickly), I don't know that it makes sense on the mod's timescale (where we're looking at perhaps a few weeks at a time), as average generation times for this historical period are probably around 15 years or so. With all the battles and manpower usage, I'd expect populations to *drop*, not rise.

Similarly, going from wooden walls to stone walls is *not* a short process either. While I could imagine going from a wooden palisade to a wooden wall on this time scale, I'm not certain about stone construction.

Would it, perhaps, make more sense to cap any growth that does occur at wooden castle and large town? It doesn't make much sense to me for a little village to become a stone-walled city in a year or two... population doesn't grow that fast, and I have my doubts about construction speeds...

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When you recruit, populations do drop. And population growth can be modded. Build times can be modded. For example we can make it so it takes, oh,six months to a year to build the castle and the city. 26-52 turns, depending on the timescale. I expect it will take a long time to build anything, so you'll have to prioritize...

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Chewie, I really like the sound of that, though I might include Oldtown in the "unique city" category.

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Chewie, I don't have much criticism about the contents of your big post -- except to say that I am really impressed. There are two ways this mod could have ended up -- slapped together with a new map and some faction names, or the way your team is approaching it -- careful thought applied to all the details and an honest attempt to make a real-feeling simulation of Westeros.

I would, as Merentha suggested, consider making Oldtown on par with King's Landing. It was the big, great city of the Andals prior to Aegon's Conquest and creation of KL.

Otherwise, I think you're on a great track.

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