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Marcus

Westeros M2:TW mod

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Not when I'm the player. I hate the fucking Tyrells, and this will finally be my chance to stick it to 'em. Probably as Dorne.

But yeah, they will have all sorts of advantages -- a big city in Oldtown, a strong castle in Highgarden, plenty of provinces, a good alliance with Renly, with their northern neighbors the Lannisters very busy fighting the Starks and possible the Ironmen. A good general in Randall Tarly. Yeah, they'll be imposing.

Then again, they were/are in the books, too.

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Couple of thoughts on the Chewie post...

- Given the amount of trade that goes on between the eastern continent and Westeros, I'd allow eastern mercenaries to be hired from *any* large port city... and not limit it to King's Landing. The Brave Companions and their like are assumed to have been hired by Tywin Lannister. If his faction is to have access, it would have to be through Lannisport, and not King's Landing. And at that point, you might as well allow access at any port city large enough to have regular trade with the East.

- I'd leave King's Landing as the only 'huge' city. Although Oldtown technically rivals King's Landing in size, population, and wealth, I'm under the impression that part of the reason to make King's Landing the only 'huge' city is that it allows us to allow King's Landing unique functionality (like building a Great Sept) that wouldn't make sense elsewhere.

- I'm not certain I understand the reasoning behind the fortress/city hybrid. Riverrun, Highgarden, and the like were considered very strong castles... but I don't recall them containing any particular economic value. In other words, I'm not sure I understand why we would distinguish between Riverrun and Winterfell... or between Casterly Rock and Highgarden. If the goal is to give additional economic power, I'd allow those to all of the 'capital' castles... Winterfell had it's partially inhabited 'Winter Town', and I'd imagine that all similar large 'capitals' had their local villages. This would be modeled by the fortress/city hybrid.

- I'm not certain how to distinguish between fortresses and citadels in ASOIAF. There are a number of castles deemed to be large and 'difficult to storm'... among those are Winterfell, Storm's End, the Twins, Dragonstone, the Eyrie, Harrenhall, Riverrun (?), and Casterly Rock... I'd imagine that Highgarden is the same... Would these be, then, Citadel/village hybrids? Lesser major castles (Pyke, Riverrun (?), Dreadfort, etc.) be fortresses, with minor stone castles (the Crag, Starfall, etc.) be stone castles?

On the Tyrells... yeah, but if they get too aggressive too early... it could get *very* ugly for them. Dorne in the south... Lannisters to the north. Greyjoys from the sea. Tullys and King's Landing to the northeast, and Baratheon to the east. Alliances can be broken much faster than they can be made, and with few exceptions, they have precious few natural borders. :)

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I joined this forum specifically because of this mod. I love the books, the idea and more specifically the challenge of recreating this world as accurately as possible. I see the map is progressing nicely, and there has been some lively discussion about factions. It appears that faction names have been set, and some units. However its hard to get a full picture of what is planned, what is just talked about, and what is NOT planned. The discussion is great. Mrcus I am sending you a PM.

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I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to make a wiki page to store all the information of what has been decided so it's easier to keep them listed on a site for reference.

As far as cities go... technically we CAN make Oldtown AND King's Landing Huge Cities and limit many buildings / construction to King's Landing only. This can be done pretty easily and has been tested to work already. Thus Oldtown and King's Landing can have the same amount of economic power but KL will have a few unique buildlings (buildlings for knights and so on, the Great Sept of Baelor for a huge The Faith boost, while Oldtown can maybe have the only Maesters Academy type buildling there for its own benefits). So yes, we can make Oldtown and KL unique.

From the sound of it, Gulltown, White Harbor, and Lannisport aren't particularly unique in comparison to KL and Oldtown - and they're much smaller too, so I think they would be fine to be limited to Large City as growth.

As far as the Citadel/Fortress thing goes - well in M2TW, the Citadel is the highest level of castle you can get. It consists of three rings of walls which makes it extremely hard to besiege with just one army. When defended with a large force of troops, taking in two armies or so to take it down is often necessary (or lots of siege artillery, such as cannons).

In ASOIAF, from the sound of it, a few castles such as Dragonstone, Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Harrenhal, etc. have been noted as being very large and hard siege targets. After all, Storm's End held out for a VERY long siege when Stannis was in command, there was a statement by Balon Greyjoy I believe that said the Rock had never fallen, and Harrenhal was huge. These cities weren't particularly big economic powers (though certainly had some) but since their biggest role was as a a large defensive castle and military producer, we would model them as a Citadel.

Places like Sunspear aren't as well known as being extremely hard to besiege, though tougher than other castles (assuming this is so especially since it is essentially a capital). Sunspear does have some economic power with the Shadow City and this can be modeled as a Fortress, with the outer walls surrounding the city, the inner walls surrounding the keep within the city. Doing so, Sunspear and other city/castle hyrids can be modeled. They would not produce near as many troops as a Citadel would but they would have access to more money production buildings/city buildlings.

Thus Fortresses would be city/castle hybrids, not as hard to assault as the Citadel and not as much production power, but more economic wealth. The Citadel would be the tough to assault castles and a large producer of troops but wouldn't hold a ton of economic wealth.

FWIW, though the book never explicitly states that Riverrun and Highgarden are economic points, I would imagine they certainly have some sway over trade. The two do sit over the junctions of rivers and I'd assume many boats sailing down the Red Fork or the Mander congregate at these points for trade.

On that note, I will be posting a list of the settlements/provinces in the game later today hopefully with some preliminary settlement types for each one. As in, the game would start with these provinces set to these city levels. Hopefully we can get some data on these in from research and so on.

After re-reading some of ACOK, it seems like the actual number of stone castles in Westeros isn't that large, at least around the Riverlands. While they certaily exist in many places, we also have to keep in mind that we don't want to turn the game of Total War into Total Siege. Thus, when there is a city in doubt between whether it was wooden or stone defenses, opting for wood would make gameplay flow better.

As far as the Tyrells go... while they might start off with the most provinces and can field the most armies (as in the books), they also have the misfortune of having no natural borders. Whereas the Vale of Arryn is sealed from all but the Sea and the Bloody Gate, and the North has Moat Cailin, the Tyrells are very spread out and have a HUGE border. All it takes is some bad diplomacy and you'll have a war on two fronts. Think of the Holy Roman Empire in the main campaign in vanilla M2TW - they're at war with either one Milan, Venice, Poland, France, Hungary, or Denmark at all times because of their huge border.

Keep in mind that Dorne and the Reach don't have a great friendship going and the Greyjoys aren't too far from their shores. The Riverlands will probably be the hardest hit by the war though, since they are at the center of everything (as in the book), but fortunately for them, their settlements are at least fairly close to one another...

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Chewie -

Sounds fair... Also, I want to point out that I'm not trying to complain or cause problems. I just test ideas by prodding at them... I'm just trying to help. :)

To further that end, your comment about needing multiple armies brought to mind Riverrun and the Twins; both need multiple armies (or divided armies) to successfully siege. Is that possible within the M2TW model?

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To further that end, your comment about needing multiple armies brought to mind Riverrun and the Twins; both need multiple armies (or divided armies) to successfully siege. Is that possible within the M2TW model?

It's not possible in the way you are thinking. Any army can besiege a castle, regardless of that castle's "defensive" position. There is no way to create a true Riverrun-like setup requiring multiple armies to successfully besiege.

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Ah, well... too bad. :) Though I thought I noticed there being two castles on the map for the Twins....

Aha... I was right. The Twins have two castles in the map. How is this working? I know that the Twins are described as two castles linked above the river (I can't remember which fork... red or green), but they still should function as one castle, no?

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I think we addressed this earlier. Keeping them as two castles at either end of a bridge is the closest we can get to the book. If we made it one castle in the middle of a river (by putting a land square in the middle of the river and sticking the castle on it) we'd have a problem because even allied armies (if I'm understanding correctly) won't be able to pass through it. So the Starks would have to attack the castle to capture it before passing through, rather than staying true to the books.

I'm pondering perhaps a victory condition for the Starks would be to prevent Riverrun from falling within say ten turns of the game starting, and their army (which would start outside the Twins) would not be large enough to stop, besiege the Twins, take it and move on before Riverrun fell to a Lannister attack, forcing it to move in accordance with the books. It may even be possible to replicate the splitting of Robb's force into driving down the Trident on either bank, one to engage the Lannisters at the ford, the other to relieve Riverrun, although the game would become too unpredictable to replicate events in the book after that point.

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Not sure what Marcus & team are planning, but to my understanding, no -- they won't function as one castle during as assault.

You see, the game works on two levels, or modes. There is a civ-like game where you manage settlements and march armies and other units around the campaign map. Then, there is a game within the game that is a real-time battle simulator.

The battle simulations take place in a new graphical setting, the battle map. Each castle or city functions as a fortification on a battle map, but that battle map is unique to the square that fight is happening in. They only vary by city/castle type. They don't have specific, unique features, such as a bridge connecting two portions of one castle.

The developers have created the twins by creating two different castles on opposite sides of a river crossing. You would need an alliance and military access to cross through them on the campaign map, but you could only assault them one at a time, since the wouldn't appear in the same battlemap.

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I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to make a wiki page to store all the information of what has been decided so it's easier to keep them listed on a site for reference.

Wiki would definately be a great idea. It would allow the information to be sorted a lot better, and hopefully if its organised properly, should allow people to contribute to the project a lot easier.

Great Thinking Chewie! ;)

Also, has it been mentioned how the famous units from the eastern continent will be implemented? I always wanted to be able to play as those faction, but I guess for this project it would be easier to implement them as mercenaries. I'm mainly speaking of the Dothraki and the unsullied, though the faceless men would apply also, though more as assassins then mercs.

Hopefully you can get the project into a playable form so the hordes of people can start testing it for balance which I think its going to be a nightmare to get just right.

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I'm pondering perhaps a victory condition for the Starks would be to prevent Riverrun from falling within say ten turns of the game starting, and their army (which would start outside the Twins) would not be large enough to stop, besiege the Twins, take it and move on before Riverrun fell to a Lannister attack, forcing it to move in accordance with the books. It may even be possible to replicate the splitting of Robb's force into driving down the Trident on either bank, one to engage the Lannisters at the ford, the other to relieve Riverrun, although the game would become too unpredictable to replicate events in the book after that point.

I know it's still too early to discuss this, but I have an idea. The Starks and most other armies shouldn't have concentrated troops at the beginning of the campaign. Robb should be sitting in Winterfell with maybe half of stack, Roose Bolton would be sitting in Dreadfort with eight or nine units, etc. That way, player would have to "gather banners" to create a concentrated army, and he'd also have to decide how many troops to take with him, how many to leave behind in case of wildling invasion/Greyjoy invasion/rebellion, which generals to choose, etc.

The only two factions that should start with concentrated troops, as per books, would be Lannisters and Stannis, which would give them an advantage in the beginning of the game. Everyone else would have to spend first several turns gathering banners.

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Here we go, the settlement list (all provinces are given by their HOUSE name except for a few such as the Night's Watch provinces, the wildling provinces, and a few of the unknown ones (such as coldmoat, ramsgate, etc.)

In bold to the right are the types of settlements we will put into it.

Please suggest/help fill out the ones we do not know.

Keep in mind that tenatively as of now, we will be using these descriptions:

Cities:

Village - basic non-walled town

Town - walled town with palisade

Large Town - town with wooden log walls (can put troops on top of walls)

City - city with stone walls

Large City - much larger city, greater stone walls

Huge City - largest stone walls, reserved for King's Landing and possibly Oldtown (will generate massive amounts of money, we can indeed differentiate between Oldtown and KL's buildlings and units)

Castles:

Motte & Bailey - palisaded castle

Wooden Castle -

Castle - stone castle

Fortress - a city/castle hybrid, two rings of walls, will have some economic power and city units but mostly a castle - can be differentiated between economic (more city with a keep inside) and more military (less economic, more military recruitment stuff)

Citadel - three ringed castle, keep reserved for military purposes only - for relatively 'impregnable' castles

From what it sounds like, cities will only be able to advance village -> large city so the only huge cities in game will be the ones that start off as such. Castles will only be able to go to castle - fortress & citadel will start off that way.

In fact, it seems very unlikely that we will make too much progression possible as in times of war, population should not be rising at a rate high enough to create that amount of change in settlements within the span of weeks and years, not centuries as in M2TW vanilla.

Also, we can give free upkeep to some units even within castles. For instance, maybe make household knights have free upkeeps a'la militia? Castles can indeed be given free upkeep slots so its a very possible thought. I'm also thinking that in the village, town, and large town settlements, there will be few if any militia units purchased and instead most units recruited at that level will be peasants and levied spearmen/units.

The Shadow Tower Castle

Castle Black Castle

Eastwatch by the Sea Castle

Mole Town Village

Thenn

Craster's Keep

Fist of the First Men

The Frozen Shore

Hardhome

The Dreadfort

Karhold

Winterfell

Deepwood Motte

White Harbor

Torrhen's Square

Barrowton

Moat Cailin

Greywater Watch

Ramsgate

Oldcastle

Flint's Finger

Widow's Watch

Last Hearth

Hornwood

Bear Island

The Rills

Kinghouse

Pebbleton

Hammerhorn

Saltcliffe

Pyke

Blacktyde

Orkmont

Ten Towers

Old Wyk

The Twins Castle

The Twins Castle

Seagard

Harrenhal Citadel

Pinkmaiden

Fairmarket

Acorn Hall

Maidenpool

Harroway (Lord Harroway's Town)

Saltpans

Darry Castle

Wayfarer's Rest

Stone Hedge

Raventree Hill

Stoney Sept

Riverrun

Casterly Rock Citadel

Lannisport Large City

Crakehall

Kayce

Faircastle

Golden Tooth

Banefort

Silverhill

Ashemark

Feastfires

The Crag

Sarsfield

Hornvale

Deep Den

Cornfield

Griffin's Roost

Evenfall Hall

Storm's End Citadel

Bronzegate

Stonehelm

Rainhouse

Blackhaven

Felwood

Nightsong

Mistwood

Greenstone

Sunspear Fortress - economic

The Tor

Ghost Hill

Salt Shore

Lemonwood

Godsgrace

Wyl

Yronwood

Sandstone

Starfall

Hellholt

Skyreach

Planky Town

Vaith

Blackmont

Driftmark

Claw Isle

Dragonstone Citadel

Sharp Point

Sweetport Sound

Antlers

Stonedance

King's Landing Huge City - have extra military recruitment buildings

Rosby

Duskendale

Rook's Rest

The Eyrie Citadel (Note: we can make it just a plain castle and put temporary forts on the path up from the gates of the moon... it's hard enough to advance all the way up to say the least)

Gates of the Moon

The Bloody Gate

Heart's Home

Runestone

Gulltown

Ironoaks

Redfort

Coldwater's Burn

Strongsong

Old Anchor

Longbow Hall

Wickenden

Highgarden

Old Oak

Oldtown Huge City - more economic, maybe maesters academy

Uplands

Vintown (The Arbor)

Southshield

Three Towers

Ashford

Goldengrove

Tumbleton

Bitterbridge

Grassy Vale

Cider Hall

Longtable

Honeyholt

Horn Hill

Bandallon

Brightwater Keep

Coldmoat

Just take your best guests if you can at an approximate settlement size. If not sure about wood or sotned settlement, go for wood as many holdfasts burned and pillaged in the riverlands were of the wooden kind...

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By the way, this might be worth testing out in terms of balance, but as we all have seen, a problem that sometimes occurs in Total War is the Jedi General syndrome. That's because General's Bodyguard units have 2 hp per soldier in the unit to begin with, meaning it takes 2 kill hits to kill them, making them extremely tough. Well, what if we give them large defense bonuses and so on to make them harder to kill, but lower hit points. That would make generals just as possible to die as any other knight....

Except for the fact that generals and family members can have character traits. There are character traits such as Brutally Scarred that add + authority and + hit points to the general himself (what a great trait for Sandor Clegane by the way...)

Well I thought about it and since not every lord or general is a great fighter, and sometimes is more a tactician... why not have traits deal with how likely they survive in combat?

First, you can have traits such as Squire (+1 hit points), Knight (+3 hitpoints, +1 command), and so on... then of course you can have individual traits that add last names even, which can be done (so we can have a trait such as Kingslayer +3 dread, give surname 'the Kingslayer' for Jaime) etc.

Too bad we can only add epithets and not titles in front of name such as Ser, Lord, etc.

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My suggestions :

The Dreadfort Castle

Karhold Castle

Winterfell Fortress Winterfell has 2 rings of walls

Deepwood Motte Wooden Castle

White Harbor Large City (one of the five cities of Westeros)

Torrhen's Square Castle (stone wall)

Barrowton Town or Large Town

Bear Island Motte & Bailey or Wooden Castle

Seagard Castle (built to defend the coast from ironborn reavers)

Pinkmaiden

Fairmarket

Acorn Hall

Maidenpool

Harroway (Lord Harroway's Town)

Saltpans

Village, Town or Large Town for all

Gulltown Large City (one of the five cities of Westeros)

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Just to let people know that one of the contributors on the Totalwar forums has set up a website for the endeavour at this location.

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Just to let people know that one of the contributors on the Totalwar forums has set up a website for the endeavour at this location.

Looks like we should all move and continue the discussion over there, no? I've just registered at the site.

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Below are my suggestions. I've consulted the Heraldry & Geography sections of Westeros.org for tidbits on settlements and houses as I've gone, but some of these are at best guesses; most of them have not been specifically described in the books. Ran or others may have more knowledge of some of the locations.

I've tried to make my suggestions with an eye towards town/castle balance for gameplay.

Cities:

Village - basic non-walled town

Town - walled town with palisade

Large Town - town with wooden log walls (can put troops on top of walls)

City - city with stone walls

Large City - much larger city, greater stone walls

Huge City - largest stone walls, reserved for King's Landing and possibly Oldtown (will generate massive amounts of money, we can indeed differentiate between Oldtown and KL's buildlings and units)

Castles:

Motte & Bailey - palisaded castle

Wooden Castle -

Castle - stone castle

Fortress - a city/castle hybrid, two rings of walls, will have some economic power and city units but mostly a castle - can be differentiated between economic (more city with a keep inside) and more military (less economic, more military recruitment stuff)

Citadel - three ringed castle, keep reserved for military purposes only - for relatively 'impregnable' castles

The Shadow Tower Castle

Castle Black Castle

Eastwatch by the Sea Castle

Mole Town Village

Thenn Village

Craster's Keep Motte & Bailey

Fist of the First Men Motte & Bailey

The Frozen Shore village

Hardhome town

The Dreadfort Fortress/Militant

Karhold Castle

Winterfell Fortress/Economic

Deepwood Motte Motte & Bailey

White Harbor City

Torrhen's Square Town

Barrowton Village

Moat Cailin Castle

Greywater Watch Wooden Castle

Ramsgate

Oldcastle Wooden Castle

Flint's Finger Village or Motte

Widow's Watch Motte

Last Hearth Wooden Castle

Hornwood Wooden Castle

Bear Island Motte or Small Town

The Rills Village

Kinghouse Town or Motte -- and I'd make it rebel -- Skagos doesn't pay attention to Winterfell

Pebbleton Town

Hammerhorn Castle with Port & Shipwright built -- house known for their many ships

Saltcliffe Village

Pyke Fortress w/advanced port/shipwright etc. to represent town of Lordsport

Blacktyde Village or Town

Orkmont Village or Motte

Ten Towers Castle

Old Wyk Town

The Twins Castle

The Twins Castle

Seagard Castle

Harrenhal Citadel

Pinkmaiden Town or Wooden Castle

Fairmarket Town

Acorn Hall Wooden Castle

Maidenpool Town or Large Town

Harroway (Lord Harroway's Town) Town

Saltpans Town

Darry Castle

Wayfarer's Rest Motte

Stone Hedge

Raventree Hill Wooden Castle or Castle, high pagan quotient, no Sept

Stoney Sept Large Town

Riverrun Fortress/Militant

Casterly Rock Citadel

Lannisport Large City

Crakehall Castle

Kayce Town

Faircastle Wooden Castle

Golden Tooth Castle

Banefort Wooden Castle

Silverhill

Ashemark Castle

FeastfiresMotte

The Crag Castle

Sarsfield

Hornvale

Deep Den

Cornfield Village or Town

I'll edit those below this point later...this is taking too long.

Griffin's Roost Castle

Evenfall Hall Wooden Castle

Storm's End Citadel

Bronzegate

Stonehelm

Rainhouse

Blackhaven

Felwood

Nightsong

Mistwood

Greenstone Castle

Sunspear Fortress - economic

The Tor

Ghost Hill

Salt Shore

Lemonwood

Godsgrace

Wyl

Yronwood

Sandstone

Starfall

Hellholt

Skyreach

Planky Town

Vaith

Blackmont

Driftmark

Claw Isle

Dragonstone Citadel

Sharp Point

Sweetport Sound

Antlers

Stonedance

King's Landing Huge City - have extra military recruitment buildings

Rosby

Duskendale

Rook's Rest

The Eyrie Citadel (Note: we can make it just a plain castle and put temporary forts on the path up from the gates of the moon... it's hard enough to advance all the way up to say the least)

Gates of the Moon

The Bloody Gate

Heart's Home

Runestone

Gulltown

Ironoaks

Redfort

Coldwater's Burn

Strongsong

Old Anchor

Longbow Hall

Wickenden

Highgarden

Old Oak

Oldtown Huge City - more economic, maybe maesters academy

Uplands

Vintown (The Arbor)

Southshield

Three Towers

Ashford

Goldengrove

Tumbleton

Bitterbridge

Grassy Vale

Cider Hall

Longtable

Honeyholt

Horn Hill

Bandallon

Brightwater Keep

Coldmoat

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