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Was CERSEI Joffrey's True Murderer?


HouseRowsdower

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I would like to apologize first off if this thread is a major rehash of something that’s been done before.  I did a short cursory search through the forums and didn’t see it, so I decided to start my own thread for discussion.

 

Whilst in the midst of re-reading the series, I was struck by something when I reached The Purple Wedding.  Specifically, the moment that Joffrey began showing symptoms of poisoning.  Now, we know that the Strangler begins working immediately.  When Maester Cressen tries to kill Melisandre in ACOK Prologue, he is rendered unable to speak immediately after drinking the poisoned wine and can’t reply to Mel’s comment.

Now, let’s fast forward to Joffrey and Margaery’s wedding.  Tyrion has been turned into the royal cupbearer, and refills the royal chalice, which Joffrey drinks from heavily.  He then directs another jape at Tyrion concerning his pie, and takes a bite.  Only after eating a large bite of TYRION’S piece of pie does he immediately start choking and take another drink of wine to combat it, which of course fails.  Joffrey then dies.  Cersei immediately has the KG arrest Tyrion for Joffrey’s death, calling it poisoning.

At this point, Tyrion and Cersei had already had their exchange where he said that when she is at her happiest, all her joy would turn to ash in her mouth, etc.  And as we all know, the depths of Cersei’s paranoia and misunderstandings know no bounds, so her jumping to this conclusion is definitely not out of character for her.  However, I think that the real reason she was so quick to jump on everything was to prevent a closer examination of events.  This examination would determine that the poisoning occurred when Joff ingested the PIE, not the wine.  This means that TYRION was the target of the poison, not Joffrey. 

And who would want Tyrion dead?  Many people, but Cersei tops that list.  By the same token, Tyrion’s disdain for Joffrey was not exactly secret, and that coupled with the overt antagonism displayed at the wedding itself leaves Tyrion as a believable suspect.

Now, later we do get Littlefinger’s admission that he and Olenna carried out the plot.  However, as of yet we have no statement from Olenna confirming LF’s story.  Littlefinger’s duplicitous nature most certainly wouldn’t preclude him from fabricating a series of events in order to retain Sansa’s trust in him after he’s spirited her away from KL in the confusion.  He needed to disarm her somehow to get her to trust and go with him.

So, although there is a strong possibility that LF was telling the truth, and there is also the possibility that Joffrey just choked like a little bitch, I personally find it likely (and poetic in fact) that Cersei poisoned Joffrey in an attempt to poison Tyrion, and continued her ways of fulfilling all the prophecies and predictions about her misery herself without anyone else’s help.

Thoughts?

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1 minute ago, Tygett Lannister said:

We have Cersei POV she would remember killing her own son unless she is completely insane/has split personalities she doesnt knows of.

Much better explanation is LF tried to kill Tyrion by poisoning his pie.

That is very true, and my reread hasn't reach Feast yet, so this may end up being disproven once again, but I don't remember Cersei ever reflecting on Joffrey's death at all in her POV chapters.  She's focused on Tommen and taking down Margaery and preserving legacy and all that jazz.  However, obviously just because I can't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Another interesting question from your comment is: Why would LF want to poison Tyrion?  General chaos maybe?  I also don't remember any specific animosity between the two of them.  Very interesting.

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From her first POV chapter in AFFC

"Forever. See that they sleep forever, ser. I will not suffer guards to sleep on watch." He is in the walls. He killed Father as he killed Mother, as he killed Joff. The dwarf would come for her as well, the queen knew, just as the old woman had promised her in the dimness of that tent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tyrion sold Myrcella to the Dornishmen, made one of her sons his hostage, and murdered the other. And when Lord Tywin returned to King's Landing . . .

 

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Martin himself put this "question" well and truly to bed long ago.

Quote

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because I think that’s an interesting question of redemption. That’s more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She certainly had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Everything she’d heard about him, he was wildly unstable, and he was about to marry her beloved granddaughter. The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate. 

And, no, Martin is not lying or being coy when he says "and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal".  In my opinion, that's just him acknowledging that even he doesn't have everything in ASoIaF planned out fully yet.  Anyway, the true answer is in Martin's explanation of what he "wants readers to wrestle with, and to debate."  

Everyone can read Martin's own words on the subject...and make up their own mind.

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34 minutes ago, HouseRowsdower said:

Another interesting question from your comment is: Why would LF want to poison Tyrion?  General chaos maybe?  I also don't remember any specific animosity between the two of them.  Very interesting.

Why would he want to poison Joffrey? No reason. Why would he want to poison Tyrion? Tyrion suspects LF was stealing money from the crown, he is married to Sansa which LF needs for his plans to be single, Tyrion knows that LF lied about the dagger causing Lannister-Stark beef, LF already tried to kill Tyrion (Mandor Moore was LF's man).

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It's an interesting thought, but probably not the case as other posters have pointed out. Cersei's definitely thought it was Tyrion, but I see where you're coming from wanting Cersei to have created her own downfall. However, I think she will do that with Tommen and somehow be directly responsible for his death.

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11 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

It's an interesting thought, but probably not the case as other posters have pointed out. Cersei's definitely thought it was Tyrion, but I see where you're coming from wanting Cersei to have created her own downfall. However, I think she will do that with Tommen and somehow be directly responsible for his death.

Well she did, she chose to cuckold the king. Going to such lengths that not even one of her children is legitimate is her doom. That was all on her. 

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You are going to make very happy someone who cannot get enough of the "Tyrion targeted with pie" theory of Joffrey's death:

Cersei did not want Joffrey dead, though. I like to look at parallel events to find collateral evidence (if there is such a thing). Catelyn and Robb at the Red Wedding would be the best parallel for Cersei and Joffrey at the Purple Wedding. Catelyn's dawning shock and dismay at the attack on Robb and on herself is evidence, to me, that Cersei was also taken by surprise by the events at Joffrey's wedding feast.

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1 hour ago, HouseRowsdower said:

Thoughts?

This is what happens when we approach a decade between books. 

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

We have Cersei POV she would remember killing her own son unless she is completely insane/has split personalities she doesn't knows of.

Exactly 

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Much better explanation is LF tried to kill Tyrion by poisoning his pie.

Or how LF admits to helping Olenna kill Joff in the books 

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6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This is what happens when we approach a decade between books. 

I don't know. As with the catspawn attack on Bran, it leaves me confused. Yes, the Bran murder plot is solved, this one is also most likely solved. But I have my suspects and believes sinces I read both stories for the first time and I will continue having them. Even if they are case closed.  

More so with the Bran murder plot. There is something about the dragon bone that matches too perfectly with Illyrio.

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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

No. She wouldn’t kill her child.

Agreed.  Joffery was Cercei's access to power (which, in my opinion, is what Cercei's really all about).  She wouldn't willingly throw that away.  Sure, she has Tommen she can "influence", too.  But that's cutting it pretty close.  If something were to happen to sweet, innocent Tommen then that's it.  It's over for her.  She's done.  Coincidentally, this is exactly what I strongly suspect will happen before the end.  Something will happen to Tommen (the "game of thrones" cares nothing for his sweetness and innocence, you see;))...and it will completely drive Cercei over the edge (if she isn't already).

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24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

No. She wouldn’t kill her child.

I agree as well.  I didn't mean to suggest that she willingly poisoned her son, merely that he was collateral damage in her war with Tyrion.

However, I freely admit that the absolute most damning evidence against my little "theory" is that, as @Tygett Lannister stated, we get to see her POV in the books following ASOS.  Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about that as I scrambled to put this together, and I probably wouldn't have even posted anything if I'd slowed my roll ;)

10 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

If something were to happen to sweet, innocent Tommen then that's it.  It's over for her.  She's done.  Coincidentally, this is exactly what I strongly suspect will happen before the end.  Something will happen to Tommen (the "game of thrones" cares nothing for his sweetness and innocence, you see;))...and it will completely drive Cercei over the edge (if she isn't already).

I'm definitely looking forward to how much further past the deep end she goes once she loses sweet Tommen.

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Tyrion was set to marry Sansa, as per Tywin's order, so I guess he'd leave KL in due time anyway. Cersei only had to wait a year or so and he'd be gone for sure, to claim the North. He wasn't even Hand anymore. It seems odd to me that she'd now all of a sudden be so set on killing Tyrion.

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11 minutes ago, HouseRowsdower said:

I'm definitely looking forward to how much further past the deep end she goes once she loses sweet Tommen.

Yeah, I'm thinking it wouldn't be too surprising to see Cercei eventually get further along in fulfilling Mad King Aerys' plan for Kings Landing than even he did.  I think it was quite possibly foreshadowed in Cercei's vision of the...was it the Red Keep or Tower of the Hand?  Anyway, she had a vision of one of them wreathed in flame.  Then, of course, history could basically repeat itself in Jaime putting her and her madness to an end while simultaneously fulfilling Maggy the Frog's prophecy to Cercei oh so long ago;)

Eh...but it's all just speculation at this point.

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39 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know. As with the catspawn attack on Bran, it leaves me confused. Yes, the Bran murder plot is solved, this one is also most likely solved. But I have my suspects and believes sinces I read both stories for the first time and I will continue having them. Even if they are case closed.  

Ignoring what is written in the books and making up something not written is a hallmark of these forums. I am sure you will find yourself in pleasant company. 

40 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

More so with the Bran murder plot. There is something about the dragon bone that matches too perfectly with Illyrio.

I can't even begin to figure how you will rationalize Fatty McFatterton getting word in essos that Bran fell and then sending a catspaw to kill him with Bob's dagger that littlefinger once owned. but hey, my sig is there for a reason 

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14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Ignoring what is written in the books and making up something not written is a hallmark of these forums. I am sure you will find yourself in pleasant company.

I'm not making things up. I know they are wrong. Why are you so offensive about my feelings to this issue ? What's your problem Sir ?

 

16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I can't even begin to figure how you will rationalize Fatty McFatterton getting word in essos that Bran fell and then sending a catspaw to kill him with Bob's dagger that littlefinger once owned. but hey, my sig is there for a reason 

I don't but I don't mind if you imagine why i see things the way I see them. Please, continue on. It's amusing how you try to figure out plotholes in my observations. See there are patterns in fantasy storys. I have a pattern problem, not a story problem. 

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