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Is The Concept Of The Night's Watch Obsolete?


The Sunland Lord

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13 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I personally think that the concept that you should not have a wife or children is an old fashioned and stupid one. Real world example : Catholic Priests. In case you don't know, there has been tons of controversy arround then raping little boys. The plain fact is that starving someone of one of one of the things we hold dear leads to then acting in desperate ways. My suggestion is that they still must give up land, ect., but they can have a wife and children. In fact, I think their wives could serve on the Night's Watch as well. Why not? If not,  there could be whole towns in the Gift purely ran by the wives or children of Night's Watchmen. You could have a leave program simar to the military that allowed them to see their wives and children for so long every year. I think its absolute bullshit that limiting someone in that way makes them a better watchman. You can still make desertation's penalty death. Look I have had a job and been single and lonely. I have had a job and been happily married. If anything, being married provides me with hope and support. It provides me with MORE motivation to work, not less. Current motivation : Hold this sword or we kill you. Possible motivation : Hold this sword or we kill you and charge a fine to your wife (or darker option, and kill your wife). Actually, while on this subject, the Kinsguard goes into this as well. I just think it is bull, and I would guess if Westeros had Psychologists, they would agree with me. My mother's masters was in psychology and family counseling and if there is anything I've learned from her is limiting people's access to conmections normally has a negative affect on their psyche not a positive one. Also having the Night's Watch for non-criminals be a temporary thing might increase enrollment. I mean serve in a grand order protecting thr realm for 5 years sounds better than for life to me. 

p.s. Since everyone keeps talking about neutrality, I agree with that part of their oaths. Perhaps with my marriage option, their wife and children would have to also be neutral as long as they were on the night's watch or something. Again, real world example, my dad is a minister. He is married to my mom. My mom also goes to church. I don't now that I'm an adult but I did as a child. I did not limit his spirituality or his ability to help people. If anything he was better able to help people as he experienced the same trials they had. I am sorry but ya'll acting like having a wife would stop you from protecting the realm. I haven't heard of mass desertions of the Army of people who are married or something like that. I don't think their is any evidence that being married or having kids makes anyone less likely to do their job well. 

You make a good point about having a wife and kids. And yes, it is quite bizarre that the realm expects so much from the people condemned on a life celibacy (Watchmen, Kingsguard, Maesters). 

What kind of policy is that? Strip a man of everything natural and expect from him to defend - what exactly? He is supposed to hold no one dear in those Kingdoms isn't he?

That being said, I find that Watchmen who are breaking this rule of celibacy are hypocritical. At least when you have the damn rule, obey it. Even if it's "only" going to Mole's Town. 

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Good point.  It's not like the wildlings don't tolerate humans.  They tolerate Craster.  Maybe it's that horn.  Mance stole the horn.

Even though Craster is increasing the ranks of the White Walkers, which is really bad for the wildlings?

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Just now, The Sunland Lord said:

You make a good point about having a wife and kids. And yes, it is quite bizarre that the realm expects so much from the people condemned on a life celibacy (Watchmen, Kingsguard, Maesters). 

What kind of policy is that? Strip a man of everything natural and expect from him to defend - what exactly? He is supposed to hold no one dear in those Kingdoms isn't he?

That being said, I find that Watchmen who are breaking this rule of celibacy are hypocritical. At least when you have the damn rule, obey it. Even if it's "only" going to Mole's Town. 

They’re not supposed to go to Mole’s Town anyways.

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52 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

In many ways the NW has become obsolete by the time the first book comes around.  And it's a bit tragic that as the NW is becoming more and more obsolete, the true purpose behind the NW is revealing itself and becoming a threat again.  I think nothing sums up the status of the Wall and the NW better than LC Mormont in ASOS:

Of course, Jon Snow independently comes to this exact same conclusion later on in ADWD.  He shuts down Marsh when he complains about the wildlings coming through being treason by throwing this exact same line at Marsh:

Of course, Marsh's response to this is to be caught looking like a fool, stunned into silence with a flush creeping up his neck.

I find it interesting that both Jon and Mormont arrive at the same conclusion- something about being the commander of the NW, Bloodraven warging the bird that follows them around perhaps?  And I find it interesting that both Jon and Mormont are attacked/murdered by the pathetic dregs representing the decline of the NW.  Here's what Mormont complains about openly to Tyrion early on in AGOT:

You have both Mormont and Jon being "killed" by these "sullen boys and tired old men" later on.  And I also find it interesting that Mormont ends his tirade waxing nostalgia about the old days of the Watch, and in Jon's final chapter before he is "killed" in ADWD Jon has that final lament about the Shieldhall and how it used to be covered with the shields of the noble houses that had sons who served on the NW but now there's nothing left.

So yeah, in short I'd say pretty much everything about the NW has become obsolete by ADWD.  The true threat they were built up to stop is here, and you have Jon making a legitimate effort to prepare the NW to fight that threat, but he is stymied by the Bowen Marshes of the NW who don't see the true threat and only care about fighting wildlings.

Dudes like Bowen are opportunists to the very end. You can tell it when you view his "genius" plan to seal the gates and hope for the best against the Others.

Also, him plotting to install Janos Slynt as Lord Commander only because Tywin Lannister wants it to be done. So much for neutrality everyone's preaching about but no one really respects, because the Watch hit the rock bottom and it's too weak to say no to more powerful factions from the Realm. 

 

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On 2/24/2018 at 10:51 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't understand why people ignore this. Agreed.

 

It's so that they can get their hate-boner on and evaluate the Night's Watch and Stannis in their mind, at the detriment of Jon.

And yeah, no. I hope the Wall comes crashing down at that glorified Border Patrol. 

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7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

This is a good point, there's a long history of countries using their misfits and criminals to do things like this. The British Empire famously pressed criminals into the army, and used penal labour to colonise Australia. The French Foreign Legion was essentially made up of criminals from all over the world. 

The problem with the NW, as Maester Aemon pointed out, was that the Desirable:Undesirable ratio went too far in the wrong direction, and there weren't enough honourable men to keep the psychos in line. 

They very much fit the role they are now playing. Which works perfect for repressing people. Mance is the first man of the watch to even turn for the wildlings, but he was born of one, so makes sense. Not even the Night's King aided the Wildlings, instead, he sacrificed some how to the Others. 

This is true, and Maester Aemon is the Voice of the wall that reports back to the Citidel. Why is there even a Maester at the wall? They serve noble houses. Of which the Watch is forbidden to serve. Yet they report to the Citidel and have a Maester at every castle on the wall. Correction, the Maesters serve the castle, dispite the lord supposedly. Why? The Weirwood? One is found at the citidel and Maester Luwin dragged his dying self over to the Weirwood at Winterfell. Is there weirwoods at the other castles? Either way i wanted to call attention to the Maesters there again.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Good point.  It's not like the wildlings don't tolerate humans.  They tolerate Craster.  Maybe it's that horn.  Mance stole the horn.

Exactly. The Others are shown to tolerate humans and doesnt' even try to kill sam. Something is up with them and what they want or what they are doing. 

And he supposedly did. We're not sure yet but it may be. We do know he disturbed the graves of a ton of dead kings though north of the wall. Why are there dead kings north of the wall? Who are they? Surely not wildling kings. They've only had a few and each tried to cross the wall.Giants?

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31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

They’re not supposed to go to Mole’s Town anyways.

Not supposed to technically, but they allow it. And as sam points out, their vows never say anything about not having sex. It says they can't father children. Bj's, Anal, pull and pray, sheepskin. There are ways 

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Consider Dareon. I can't even blame the guy for forsaking his vows, he's a singer and no real use at war or politics. The abundance of convicts at the wall is indicative of a society that does not truly value it. It is by no means a good idea whether in a fictitious story or not. 

I think that Jon's new Wall is pretty good. To make it better, the Wall should be a hive of activity. It should be a home to families with a trading port at Eastwatch. They should chop the timber (maybe not the WWs) as far as the eye can see and sell the timber to Bravoss who are famously in need of timber. Not only would the wall make some coin to buy supplies, they would have an even better view of approaching enemies. They could also trade with the Wildlings. In circumstances such a the LN, women and children could be evacuated to the lower regions, if not to the winter town itself. 

We've seen what happens when the NW is populated by individuals with felonious pasts. There's treachery and bloodshed and an all round low-morale. The influx of wildlings should not be as dangerous as the gaggle of convicts who despise them. And it makes me wonder if the Wall should be a place where ordinary people live their lives. These after all are the ones with the biggest stake in society. They are society. I doubt any of them would need to swear a special vow to a tree to remain loyal. The men who went with Mormont - what were they risking their lives for exactly? A realm that had all but sentenced them to death. I don't think that system would ever work. It didn't work in the story. At all. 

Whatever happens, people are doomed to forget, and history will spiral around once more. If the wall does stand come the end, five hundred years will pass and everyone would of forgotten the 'others'. And there'll be a new Old Nan telling tall tales of icy demons and winters with no end. 

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4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

huh?  Except he didn't.  This is like saying someone's guilty of murder if they conceive of a plan to murder someone, but before they even reach the location of their target they are convinced otherwise and don't follow through with the murder.  Are they still guilty of murder?  Jon thought about "skirting his oaths to go save loved ones", but he didn't.  So he wasn't executed.  There was no crime, any more than the men who go off every night to Mole's Town aren't deserting.  Jon took a ride during the night when he could have been sleeping and did not have duties to attend to, he was back in the morning to fulfill the duties he had when he was needed to.  How is it desertion?

If a person is caught in the process of going to murder someone, (they've purchased a gun and they've let their intentions known and started their way on their target)and has to be talked down from actually doing it by law enforcement, the person would be still be arrested and tried and likely convicted. Jon wasn't going about for a leisure stroll around the woods of castle black thinking about what if he left. He was caught attempting to desert and freely admits had his friends not stood in his way he wouldn't have stopped riding south to try to save his kin. Its not just thinking.

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34 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

They very much fit the role they are now playing. Which works perfect for repressing people. Mance is the first man of the watch to even turn for the wildlings, but he was born of one, so makes sense. Not even the Night's King aided the Wildlings, instead, he sacrificed some how to the Others. 

This is true, and Maester Aemon is the Voice of the wall that reports back to the Citidel. Why is there even a Maester at the wall? They serve noble houses. Of which the Watch is forbidden to serve. Yet they report to the Citidel and have a Maester at every castle on the wall. Correction, the Maesters serve the castle, dispite the lord supposedly. Why? The Weirwood? One is found at the citidel and Maester Luwin dragged his dying self over to the Weirwood at Winterfell. Is there weirwoods at the other castles? Either way i wanted to call attention to the Maesters there again.

Exactly. The Others are shown to tolerate humans and doesnt' even try to kill sam. Something is up with them and what they want or what they are doing. 

And he supposedly did. We're not sure yet but it may be. We do know he disturbed the graves of a ton of dead kings though north of the wall. Why are there dead kings north of the wall? Who are they? Surely not wildling kings. They've only had a few and each tried to cross the wall.Giants?

The Others are not really tolerant. Just ask Will and his sore throat. He didn’t attack any of the Others, yet the Others set Wight Waymar loose on him.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not supposed to technically, but they allow it. And as sam points out, their vows never say anything about not having sex. It says they can't father children. Bj's, Anal, pull and pray, sheepskin. There are ways 

I'm actually surprised there isn't much homosexuality shown in the watch-I mean how much money could they get to even go to mole's town for some companionship anyway. I mean a good chunk of the watch are northerners  and northerners worship the old gods  who say nothing about homosexuality.

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36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The Others are not really tolerant. Just ask Will and his sore throat. He didn’t attack any of the Others, yet the Others set Wight Waymar loose on him.

Yes and no. Craster would argue differently. The Others may have different feelings towards the watch still. Plus they check Waymars sword it seems, so they may be searching for some one and on a specific mission. Waymar and them couldn't have been too far from the wall with such a small ranging party, yet the Others were close. So why have they not attacked the wall yet? What are they waiting for? Why do we even think they're coming to cross the wall? Seriously. What in the books actually gives that impression?

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22 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm actually surprised there isn't much homosexuality shown in the watch-I mean how much money could they get to even go to mole's town for some companionship anyway. I mean a good chunk of the watch are northerners  and northerners worship the old gods  who say nothing about homosexuality.

Hahaha im sure there are some. Maybe we just havn't picked up on it yet. George didn't out right announce Loras. Though that does kind of make me wonder what the Old Gods would think of it. Probably ok with it cause men wound't be having kids and multiplying their numbers 

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes and no. Craster would argue differently. The Others may have different feelings towards the watch still. Plus they check Waymars sword it seems, so they may be searching for some one and on a specific mission. Waymar and them couldn't have been too far from the wall with such a small ranging party, yet the Others were close. So why have they not attacked the wall yet? What are they waiting for? Why do we even think they're coming to cross the wall? Seriously. What in the books actually gives that impression?

So what makes Waymar so important?

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes and no. Craster would argue differently. The Others may have different feelings towards the watch still. Plus they check Waymars sword it seems, so they may be searching for some one and on a specific mission. Waymar and them couldn't have been too far from the wall with such a small ranging party, yet the Others were close. So why have they not attacked the wall yet? What are they waiting for? Why do we even think they're coming to cross the wall? Seriously. What in the books actually gives that impression?

You know it's been theorized that the climax of the story won't really end with some big grand war, between a good side v evil but through diplomacy. I personally posit(near baselessly), the wildlings were always meant to be a human sacrifice to the others.

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what makes Waymar so important?

Nothing, as they laugh at him and end up killing him after checking his sword.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but henever saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.
Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.
Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.
The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.
Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.
When the blades touched, the steel shattered.
A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce wentto his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.
The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

 

 
The Other checks out his sword, then in single combat, challenges him. After scoring the first blow, he laughs at him. Then they all come at once like a silent signal was given. (Cause they all knew at once, he's not the one.)
 
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13 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You know it's been theorized that the climax of the story won't really end with some big grand war, between a good side v evil but through diplomacy. I personally posit(near baselessly), the wildlings were always meant to be a human sacrifice to the others.

Would make sense given Jon is bent on understanding what they want and who they are, sam's arch even becomes about this mission, so it's stands to reason, he will find out what they want. 

Finding it out gives him leverage. Leverage for what? You can't assume what the Others want is a weapon that can be used against them. What ever it is, all you can assume is that it's precious to them or desired by them. So thus having it, gives you bargaining power with them at the least.

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6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Not really.  There are very good reasons to dislike some of the Starks.  I say some because you can't label an entire family with the same tag.  Jon did some horrible things at the wall that will lead to its collapse. he's too emotional and makes his decisions based on how he feels about someone.  Arya is a souless murderer.  Sansa is very selfish.  Those are good reasons to dislike somebody. 

Quote

They are extremely flawed. They would not be interesting if they were pure paragons. Your idea of Yoren possibly being in the seems shakey at best-could the Iron throne just pluck recruits on their way to the wall? I don't know sounds dubious. But you've convinced me, Yoren was far from acting neutral. He as a brother should have never opened his mouth to Ned to alert him of things that have nothing to do with the watch nor try to smuggle Arya(who is not a soulless murderer by the way), home using his role as a recruiter as camouflage. 

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