Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I don't think that is going to happen. It is unlike GRRM for a dragon to appear out of nowhere. Also, I don't think a dragon would have gone unnoticed; GRRM would at least have peppered hints in the Northern chapters such as claimed sightings. 

Not if this was supposed to a great surprise. And there is a hint, in Bran's last chapter in ACoK. It is very subtle but it is what triggered this idea years and years ago.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

That dragon would also be untrained.

Who cares? Dragons don't need to be trained. Wild dragons can be claimed, too, and since we would be talking about 'resurrected Jon' here, closer to wolf than man, he would actually be the ideal person to claim a dragon as wild and feral as he is. Assuming this was going to happen in the near future.

It would likely be only a placeholder for either Viserion or Rhaegal, but we don't really when exactly Jon's Targaryen ancestry is going to come into play. It could be only when Dany enters his life, it could be when Aegon enters his life, it could be when a dragon comes around. We don't know.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

As to the main topic, I think one of the dragons will undergo gender transition as animals that can change sex, do so when placed in single sex environments. You just need to dragons to create a clutch of eggs.

There is actually no reason for them to go through anything like that since we simply don't know how this goes or whether this is even necessary. After all, as @Lost Melnibonean has already pointed out - Viserion might already have laid a clutch of eggs down under the pyramid, and she and Rhaegal could also already have mated down there while nobody was looking.

We don't know whether Drogon, Viserion, or Rhaegal are male or female, nor whether they have already changed sex multiple times.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I still prefer the Cannibal waking from hibernation on the "cannibal isle" Skagos (Stone in the Old Tongue), and becoming Jon's mount.

Another juvenile hatchling will be pretty boring at this point. A monster older and larger than Balerion, well, that would be something to behold.

Black was always Jon's colour...

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I still prefer the Cannibal waking from hibernation on the "cannibal isle" Skagos (Stone in the Old Tongue), and becoming Jon's mount.

If he wakes, it will be from Dragonstone and not from Skagos. And if he does, he'll be an antagonist/monster, not some force for good. He is the Cannibal, after all.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If he wakes, it will be from Dragonstone and not from Skagos. And if he does, he'll be an antagonist/monster, not some force for good. He is the Cannibal, after all.

I lean towards Skagos. Heck, he might even be the Giant woken from the Earth to break the Wall,once Joramun's horn is blown. Perhaps the "other medium" corrupted this idea in how they approached the issue.

 

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I lean towards Skagos. Heck, he might even be the Giant woken from the Earth to break the Wall,once Joramun's horn is blown. Perhaps the "other medium" corrupted this idea in how they approached the issue.

 

We know what the giants in the earth are. It is a metaphor for an earthquake. TWoIaF made that clear. One assumes the Horn of Joramun has the power to cause earthquakes somehow. It was blown already in the past, presumably away from the Wall, explaining why it didn't fall back then. But if you know what it can do - and people know that - then it can (and will) be used to bring down the Wall, assuming the Others get it.

And they might already have it. They must have a plan to bring down the Wall.

The Skagos thing in relation to the Cannibal simply makes little sense in light of the fact that literally nothing connects him with the island. He was last seen on Dragonstone, and he had a lair at the Dragonmount.

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know what the giants in the earth are. It is a metaphor for an earthquake. TWoIaF made that clear. One assumes the Horn of Joramun has the power to cause earthquakes somehow. It was blown already in the past, presumably away from the Wall, explaining why it didn't fall back then. But if you know what it can do - and people know that - then it can (and will) be used to bring down the Wall, assuming the Others get it.

And they might already have it. They must have a plan to bring down the Wall.

The Skagos thing in relation to the Cannibal simply makes little sense in light of the fact that literally nothing connects him with the island. He was last seen on Dragonstone, and he had a lair at the Dragonmount.

Well, perhaps the earthquake wakes Cannibal. I think the connection with Skagos is easily made. Dragonstone has been explored to death. It would seem weird if something suddenly awoke there. Skagos has remained hidden, and a massive previously unknown dragon appearing from there is much more plausible, not to mention it fits with the plot which is finally leading us there.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I still prefer the Cannibal waking from hibernation on the "cannibal isle" Skagos (Stone in the Old Tongue), and becoming Jon's mount.

Another juvenile hatchling will be pretty boring at this point. A monster older and larger than Balerion, well, that would be something to behold.

Black was always Jon's colour...

Yeap. After Daenerys lights that third fire and rides that third smokey mount off to her sun and stars, Jon will ride the big black one. 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeap. After Daenerys lights that third fire and rides that third smokey mount off to her sun and stars, Jon will ride the big black one. 

Jon is dead and the smart money is on him staying dead.  I don't think Jon will get the chance to ride a dragon.  At least I hope not.  I only want Dany to have dragons.  Because I'm a big time Dany fan.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon is dead and the smart money is on him staying dead.  I don't think Jon will get the chance to ride a dragon.  At least I hope not.  I only want Dany to have dragons.  Because I'm a big time Dany fan.

I like Daenerys too, but we are not telling the tale. 

[Lord Varys]

If Dany is ever going to fly into the nightlands, she will take Drogon with her. He is named after her sun-and-stars. He belongs her, body and soul, and he'll die with her, if they die.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I like Daenerys too, but we are not telling the tale. 

No, we are not.  And neither is the show.  What you say may happen in that fan fiction but I doubt it will happen in the novels.

[Lost Melnibonean]

47 minutes ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

No, we are not.  And neither is the show.  What you say may happen in that fan fiction but I doubt it will happen in the novels.

It's my guess as to where the storyteller is headed based on what he's already said. I might be right, or I might be wrong. My wife tells me I am wrong all the time, so I probably am. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I cannot really quote that here.

I know you "cannot really quote that here", it was a retorical question, as I know that GRRM never said that. (certainly not pertaining to the books, and his story that we are discussing here, in the book forum)

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I'd research stuff George told the guys making the show when they filmed the first season in relation to the present Jon/Dany plot in the show.

Ha! You might research that stuff, but I, most definitely will not be doing so.

...I'm disappointed Lord Varys, despite all we do not see eye to eye on, I thought at least we both could agreed that matters pertaining to the show do not belong in book discussion. 

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If Jon is Rhaegar's son he is a Targaryen (bastard). This is a patriarchal society.

Or do you see Robert, Stannis and Renly as Estermonts? Is Sam a Florent? Tywin a Marbrand? Mace a Redwyne? The Stark children all Tullys?

 

I would think by now, you would know that you cannot get away with these fallacies with me. Please explain how there is any relevance in the circumstances of the examples you provided, and the circumstances facing Jon.

I do not consider Jon a Stark because his mother is one. Jon was raised believing that Ned was his father, and that he is the bastard blood of a Stark. His whole identity is defined by his insecurities born of him being a bastard, and driven by his desire to be a true Stark, and to live up to the example set by the man that was his real and only father he had his entire life. Do you really think that Jon is not going to consider Ned his father, just because he finds out that he actually has Targaryen blood? What you don't seem to realize is that Jon, and the author, do not believe in this elitist right of blood; What makes a man who he is, is his beliefs and his actions, not what blood he is of.

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What wolf, exactly? Arya is a child-assassin who stands no chance against either wights or Others, Sansa isn't even a warrior, Rickon isn't even a character, and Bran is a tree-man.

Wolves. Plural. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. 

I find it comical that you think a story can only be told about a protagonist, if they are a strong warrior type; Especially when we are talking about a story written by an author who has said that the only stories worth telling are that of the human heart in conflict with itself.  (Seriously, I'm starting to think you are a closet supporter and fan of D&D)

[Fire Eater]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not if this was supposed to a great surprise. And there is a hint, in Bran's last chapter in ACoK. It is very subtle but it is what triggered this idea years and years ago.

There is just one problem with that: newborn dragons can't fly or breathe fire. That wasn't an actual dragon Summer saw. I think it is more likely a hint that Daenerys will eventually come to Winterfell. GRRM would have placed plenty of hints for an actual dragon hatching at Winterfell. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Fire Eater said:

There is just one problem with that: newborn dragons can't fly or breathe fire. That wasn't an actual dragon Summer saw. I think it is more likely a hint that Daenerys will eventually come to Winterfell. GRRM would have placed plenty of hints for an actual dragon hatching at Winterfell. 

It would have been some time after the actual hatching would have taken place. And we don't know how quickly a dragon can grown when it gorges itself on human flesh, say. Perhaps that accelerates the growing process (if George wants Dany's dragons to grow to enormous sizes in the amount of time he has left he'll come up with some explanation as to how that happened).

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I know you "cannot really quote that here", it was a retorical question, as I know that GRRM never said that. (certainly not pertaining to the books, and his story that we are discussing here, in the book forum)

George would have talked about his story. It is the only story that counts. His Dany, his Jon. The only ones that exist.

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Ha! You might research that stuff, but I, most definitely will not be doing so.

...I'm disappointed Lord Varys, despite all we do not see eye to eye on, I thought at least we both could agreed that matters pertaining to the show do not belong in book discussion. 

I never mentioned the show. I just pointed out a fact I do happen to know GRRM said about the importance of Jon and Dany for the story he is writing.

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I do not consider Jon a Stark because his mother is one. Jon was raised believing that Ned was his father, and that he is the bastard blood of a Stark. His whole identity is defined by his insecurities born of him being a bastard, and driven by his desire to be a true Stark, and to live up to the example set by the man that was his real and only father he had his entire life. Do you really think that Jon is not going to consider Ned his father, just because he finds out that he actually has Targaryen blood? What you don't seem to realize is that Jon, and the author, do not believe in this elitist right of blood; What makes a man who he is, is his beliefs and his actions, not what blood he is of.

That is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Jon being Ned Stark's bastard's son - or believing he is Ned Stark's bastard son - doesn't make him a Stark, either. It makes him a bastard named Snow.

And his true heritage makes him a Targaryen prince or a Targaryen bastard.

Jon pretty much believes in the right of blood, by the way. He knows that Winterfell isn't his, and that it will never be his, because he isn't a Stark. He knows and accepts this. That's why he rejects Stannis' offer.

And he is right about that. Rhaegar Targaryen's son has no place in Winterfell. 

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Wolves. Plural. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

And? What has that to do with anything? Nobody said anything about those wolves dying. I don't expect any of the children to die. Hell, I even want Rickon to live and become Lord of Winterfell eventually.

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I find it comical that you think a story can only be told about a protagonist, if they are a strong warrior type; Especially when we are talking about a story written by an author who has said that the only stories worth telling are that of the human heart in conflict with itself.  (Seriously, I'm starting to think you are a closet supporter and fan of D&D)

Well, I'm sure Dany and Jon and Tyrion will be very much conflicted, the way things should be in one of George's classical love triangles.

But the fact remains that the focus of this story - the real focus - is on those three. Both in regards to the number of chapters as well as in regards to the overall importance the plot give them.

Bran might become pretty important for the end game, too, I don't deny that. But Sansa and Arya and Rickon are going to be completely useless in the fight against Others and wights.

[Big P]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's my guess as to where the storyteller is headed based on what he's already said. I might be right, or I might be wrong. My wife tells me I am wrong all the time, so I probably am. 

I believe you are wrong about where the story is headed. 

About your wife, take heart, all wives do that.  Mine tells me "you're wrong Bwana" all the time. 

[Fire Eater]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would have been some time after the actual hatching would have taken place. And we don't know how quickly a dragon can grown when it gorges itself on human flesh, say. Perhaps that accelerates the growing process (if George wants Dany's dragons to grow to enormous sizes in the amount of time he has left he'll come up with some explanation as to how that happened).

Unlikely given GRRM said Dany's case was a miracle, a once-in-a-lifetime thing. 

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GRRM Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Revanshe    So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin    Probably not.

 

[Big P]

 

The White Walkers might be nothing more than a distraction.  The Vietnam war made a lasting impression on our dear author.  All the paranoia about the White Walkers because man believes they are a threat when they have made no move to cross the wall could lead to bad decisions.  Like the great ranging.  Sending troops to other side of the wall into White Walker territory could provoke war. 

[Blackwater Revenant]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

<snipped>

We are way off topic, so I will refrain from getting into it, but let me just say, you are completely missing my point, and I cannot really agree with anything you wrote here.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Unlikely given GRRM said Dany's case was a miracle, a once-in-a-lifetime thing. 

 

You are over-interpreting this tidbit. It is about Dany's immunity to fire, not whether heat from a fire and blood from slain people can't hatch another dragon egg.

In fact, now that the dragons are back they have an effect on fire magic in general (e.g. the pyromancers ability to produce wildfire at a much higher rate). This could, of course, also have an effect on any dragon eggs that might still lie around somewhere. They could hatch on their own - like they used to, back in the old days - or under circumstances much less magical or miraculous than the circumstances that hatched Dany's eggs.

If there was a dragon egg at Winterfell then the people Ramsay killed and the heat from the burning of Winterfell could have triggered the hatching of the egg if the dormant dragon itself had been already wakened by the presence of Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal in this world.

Now, I'm not saying this did happen. I'm just saying it is a possibility one can consider.