Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

[Fire Eater]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are over-interpreting this tidbit. It is about Dany's immunity to fire, not whether heat from a fire and blood from slain people can't hatch another dragon egg.

In fact, now that the dragons are back they have an effect on fire magic in general (e.g. the pyromancers ability to produce wildfire at a much higher rate). This could, of course, also have an effect on any dragon eggs that might still lie around somewhere. They could hatch on their own - like they used to, back in the old days - or under circumstances much less magical or miraculous than the circumstances that hatched Dany's eggs.

If there was a dragon egg at Winterfell then the people Ramsay killed and the heat from the burning of Winterfell could have triggered the hatching of the egg if the dormant dragon itself had been already wakened by the presence of Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal in this world.

Now, I'm not saying this did happen. I'm just saying it is a possibility one can consider.

He specifically said "The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle." I doubt a second miracle like that could happen in the same timeline. Another dragon would also take away from the impact of Dany's dragons. Melisandre would also try to get it for Stannis. 

I sincerely doubt that the dragon could grow with no parent to care for it, and I doubt it grow magically accelerated as we have not seen a single speck of evidence of it in the books regarding any dragons. The whole theory falls apart easily. 

[Lord Vance II]

Not in the time frame of the books, maybe decades in the future. They're babies. 

Her dragons are, what, like 3 years old? Sure they're gigantic and ferocious, but I seriously doubt their sexually mature, especially considering how long their lives can be. It's a general rule of nature that longer-lived animals take longer to sexually mature. Humans average lifespan is like 75 or so and we don't sexually mature until were in our teens. Dragons can easily make it 100+. They're in no hurry.

Of course, "nature" might not matter to a dragon, and them being reptiles (Kind of, I guess? Warm-blooded reptiles?) might change the rules, but I just don't think they're old enough. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

He specifically said "The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle." I doubt a second miracle like that could happen in the same timeline.

It wouldn't be the same kind of miracle. Rather a much more mundane thing, like the hatching of a dragon egg produced by, say, Viserion would be.

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Another dragon would also take away from the impact of Dany's dragons.

Sure, but that would be part of the narrative purpose of this, no? Jon Snow isn't Dany. He could get a dragon of his own.

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Melisandre would also try to get it for Stannis. 

That is another matter entirely. She doesn't have to know that such a dragon exist until it is too late. Or she might fail to secure it for Stannis. After all, the woman hasn't even seen Daenerys and her dragons (in any meaningful context) in her flames, or has she?

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I sincerely doubt that the dragon could grow with no parent to care for it, and I doubt it grow magically accelerated as we have not seen a single speck of evidence of it in the books regarding any dragons. The whole theory falls apart easily. 

It is pretty obvious how it could have lived and thrived hidden in the ruins of Winterfell until it was large enough to fly away: Ramsay burned the castle, and that would include the corpses of all the Ironborn his men slew, providing the dragon with more than enough charred meat to grow to flying size. And from there it is on to the wildlife of the North.

Dragons can be very stealthy and sneaky as the Grey Ghost shows during the Dance. People didn't even find the lair of that dragon when they went looking for it.

Again, there is very little textual evidence for this idea, but the setting would clearly support such a development if the author wanted to make use of it. The idea of dragons and dragon eggs at Winterfell goes back a very long time among the readers. I think the first ideas in that direction came when we learned about Jaehaerys/Alysanne and their five dragons visiting Winterfell - in combination with the last Bran chapter of ACoK, of course.

And now we have another hint with this rumor about Vermax actually leaving dragon eggs in Winterfell. Could be just nonsense. Could just be a symbolic connection to Jon (although he, personally, has nothing to do with the crypts; nor does Rhaegar have anything to do with it - it is Lyanna, a Stark, who lies down there, not Prince Rhaegar). But it could also be something deeper.

I mean, with this whole Second Dance of the Dragons thing more than just three dragons would be nice.

Thus it would be good to see the Cannibal show up as a major monster on the evil side, to see Dany's dragons procreate, and perhaps even to see other old dragon eggs hatch - or learn that they have hatched while nobody was looking.

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

He specifically said "The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle." I doubt a second miracle like that could happen in the same timeline. Another dragon would also take away from the impact of Dany's dragons. Melisandre would also try to get it for Stannis. 

I sincerely doubt that the dragon could grow with no parent to care for it, and I doubt it grow magically accelerated as we have not seen a single speck of evidence of it in the books regarding any dragons. The whole theory falls apart easily. 

I agree. If another dragon pops up from Winterfell, Skagos, or the Shadow beyond Asshai,  it will dimish Daenerys's role as the Mother of Dragons. That and her role as the protagonist in the second main conflict of the tale are the most important reasons to have her in the series. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It wouldn't be the same kind of miracle. Rather a much more mundane thing, like the hatching of a dragon egg produced by, say, Viserion would be.

I do suspect that Viserys has laid a clutch of eggs, and when I sit in my room full of cracked and broken pottery that Tyrion will reunite Viserion with her clutch, and he and Barristan will ensure that Grandma Dany can pop one into the crib of her son with Aegon. Ow! I think I just cut my foot on a broken piece of pottery. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

On 2/25/2018 at 8:59 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeap. After Daenerys lights that third fire and rides that third smokey mount off to her sun and stars, Jon will ride the big black one. 

Hmm, still reading this, but perhaps Jon's color always having been black simply refers to his Targ heritage?  He just needs some red now. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Hmm, still reading this, but perhaps Jon's color always having been black simply refers to his Targ heritage?  He just needs some red now. 

Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon, but in that context black dragons are Blackfyres. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

45 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon, but in that context black dragons are Blackfyres. 

LOL  I was more so thinking about Rhaegar's famous black armor with the red rubies.  Plus, the Targ banners are black with the three-headed red dragon, that came to mind as well. 

ETA: And yes, I do think there is a chance one of Dany's three could,or maybe, already has, laid an egg or two.  I do like the idea of Viserion's little cavern under the pyramid being a shot at that, although, I've always considered Rhaegal to be the one most likely to give us an egg. 

Also, I did see Bran's dream vision of dragons stirring in the east to be his foretelling of Dany's hatching of the dragons on the Dothraki Sea......not that they were more in Asshai. 

[Lady Char]

If Jon is going to ride one of the 3 dragons, it would be Viserion. Viserys was likely to be his name if R+L=J is true, and Vis' pale coloring is reminiscent of Ghost's

[Lady Fevre Dream]

34 minutes ago, Lady Char said:

If Jon is going to ride one of the 3 dragons, it would be Viserion. Viserys was likely to be his name if R+L=J is true, and Vis' pale coloring is reminiscent of Ghost's

I've always leaned toward Jon riding Rhaegal (IF he does ride, that is), the dragon named for his natural father.  I also lean towards Rhaegal being the more feminine of the dragons and the best shot at eggs, in spite of my liking for the long shot of Viserion digging a nest in the pyramid. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

49 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

ETA: And yes, I do think there is a chance one of Dany's three could,or maybe, already has, laid an egg or two.  I do like the idea of Viserion's little cavern under the pyramid being a shot at that, although, I've always considered Rhaegal to be the one most likely to give us an egg. 

I suspect that while Daenerys is riding the big black one, Aegon will end up on the green one. Now if Viserion laid a clutch in its hole big enough to sleep in, that would suggest that Rhaegal was the father. And if my idea here plays out, that would mean the child of Daenerys fathered by Aegon might get a dragon's egg--and a wee dragonlet--sired by Aegon's dragon. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

28 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I suspect that while Daenerys is riding the big black one, Aegon will end up on the green one. Now if Viserion laid a clutch in its hole big enough to sleep in, that would suggest that Rhaegal was the father. And if my idea here plays out, that would mean the child of Daenerys fathered by Aegon might get a dragon's egg--and a wee dragonlet--sired by Aegon's dragon. 

This almost feels like one of those word problems on a math exam, LOL 

Ah, The Blacks and The Greens.  I've had that on my mind the past few days, even peeked at the relevant books on them, too.  I was trying to remember if it Caraxes body was found with Vhaegar and One-Eyed Aemon (It was) at Harrenhal during The Dance.  While skimming the appropriate parts, I did notice that during the battle between those two dragons Caraxes was referred to as female in the death throws with Vhaegar (she sinks HER teeth deep into the flesh of the larger dragon, has HER belly ripped open by Vhaegar's claws), but pre-battle Prince Daemon has Caraxes bend HIS neck.  I had to go back to these few paragraphs to catch that......the switching of sexes right there in one scene.  Vhaegar always seems to be female in what I have read (haven't read Book of Swords yet), many dragons in the Dance had set sexes, and for a second I thought that Caraxes did, too, having noticed the female to female in the death throws of dragons and riders (rider).  But, no.........Daemon has Caraxes bend HIS neck for him to climb aboard. 

What I really need is a refresher on where the ideas of the shifting sex of dragons comes from, story wise.  I know some of it based on Aemon's fevered utterances about Valyrian and the words on the prophecies of Prince that was promised being misunderstood in translation, ie.....Aemon thinks it could have been Dany, female not necessarily needing to be male, blah blah blah it relates to dragons and their sex as well.  I do need a new look at that segment, as well as a reminder on where else the ideas of the shifting of sexes of the dragons come from, text wise. 

I thought it was odd that I noticed that yesterday, a dragon shifting sex within a few paragraphs description in my reading, I suppose that's how this thread caught my interest today.  I wonder, though, was Caraxes shift intentional, or...........an editing error?  I can't say as I plan on combing a ton of pages right now to figure out the answer.  HA

For the main ASOIAF story, I do think any ideas of dragon eggs are more about setting up the world going forward after the story, not necessarily impacting the present time line and outcome of the novels.  (Should we even have an ending, that is

ETA:  I did think and type and read all at the same time with this post, so forgive me if it's a mess. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I suspect that while Daenerys is riding the big black one, Aegon will end up on the green one. Now if Viserion laid a clutch in its hole big enough to sleep in, that would suggest that Rhaegal was the father. And if my idea here plays out, that would mean the child of Daenerys fathered by Aegon might get a dragon's egg--and a wee dragonlet--sired by Aegon's dragon. 

Hmm...

When Daenerys lost Rhaego, and as the The Dragon was trying to get her to wake it, she wanted--needed an egg...

Quote

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

Dany touched her brow. Under the film of sweat, her skin was cool to the touch, her fever gone. She made herself sit. There was a moment of dizziness, and the deep ache between her thighs. Yet she felt strong.

Daenerys IX, Game 68

The egg revived her after she lost her son, but it wasn't the black one; it was the white one--the one from which hatched the dragon that might have laid a clutch fathered by the green one. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Aww, I see I gave Vhagar the.......ae treatment.  Oops, LOL 

Also, it seems Caraxes was back to being male as he died.  The dragon crawled out of the Gods Eye and onto land.  "Gutted, with one wing torn from HIS body and the waters of the lake smoking about HIM,"  Yet, one paragraph before that gutting was HERS, LOL  I'm still wondering if this was purposeful or not. 

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Aww, I see I gave Vhagar the.......ae treatment.  Oops, LOL 

Also, it seems Caraxes was back to being male as he died.  The dragon crawled out of the Gods Eye and onto land.  "Gutted, with one wing torn from HIS body and the waters of the lake smoking about HIM,"  Yet, one paragraph before that gutting was HERS, LOL  I'm still wondering if this was purposeful or not. 

Very quick sidenote that hopefully makes you smile... think of the Eli Reynolds and all of the other ships that have male names, only to be called "she" and "her". I would venture to say that this was purposeful, for a few reasons.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Very quick sidenote that hopefully makes you smile... think of the Eli Reynolds and all of the other ships that have male names, only to be called "she" and "her". I would venture to say that this was purposeful, for a few reasons.

A Lady understands.    The Eli Reynolds, it, I mean SHE, is almost the Little Engine That Could. 

Something put the battle between Vhagar and Caraxes in my mind (no need to explain, you know how it goes), so I checked both the World Book and the appropriate passages of P&Q.  I answered my OG question about Caraxes body and now am left with these questions.  I do think you may be right, and it will be something to pay attention to, this sex switching, in further reading. 

[Fire Eater]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It wouldn't be the same kind of miracle. Rather a much more mundane thing, like the hatching of a dragon egg produced by, say, Viserion would be.

Except that egg would be theoretically over a hundred years old. The hatching of dead dragon eggs was the miracle not the mundane.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but that would be part of the narrative purpose of this, no? Jon Snow isn't Dany. He could get a dragon of his own.

Couldn't he simply just mount one of her dragons? That would serve a narrative purpose as it provides evidence for his Targaryen heritage. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty obvious how it could have lived and thrived hidden in the ruins of Winterfell until it was large enough to fly away: Ramsay burned the castle, and that would include the corpses of all the Ironborn his men slew, providing the dragon with more than enough charred meat to grow to flying size. And from there it is on to the wildlife of the North.

Dragons can be very stealthy and sneaky as the Grey Ghost shows during the Dance. People didn't even find the lair of that dragon when they went looking for it.

The bodies would have rotted away after a while. It takes around a month for a human corpse to liquefy, and that's not including maggots feeding on a corpse. It also took Dany's dragons seven months after hatching until they learned to fly. Those corpses wouldn't have been enough to sustain a baby dragon for seven months. We also learn from Theons chapters in ADwD that there were squatters at WF. They would have spotted the dragon, and word would have spread. 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Except that egg would be theoretically over a hundred years old. The hatching of dead dragon eggs was the miracle not the mundane.

Again, perhaps those 'dead dragon eggs' were never dead, after all. Dany feels they are alive, doesn't she? If the wildfire spells can work again now that dragons are in the world again, why can't dormant dragon eggs awake and hatch? It would make sense in the context of the theme.

3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Couldn't he simply just mount one of her dragons? That would serve a narrative purpose as it provides evidence for his Targaryen heritage. 

Jon's parentage won't be proven by as arbitrary a feature as him jumping one of Dany's dragons. That wouldn't prove that he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, it would merely be a strong indication that he had at least one dragonlord ancestor somewhere down his family line - and it could be rather far down in his family line.

Not to mention that Jon also happens to be a skinchanger. Don't you think a skinchanger could also bend a dragon to his will? Or don't you think that people are going to be inclined to believe that Jon claimed his dragon as a skinchanger even if he did not do it that way?

If Jon's ancestry is going to serve a narrative purpose it will do so because people are actually going to believe Howland, Wylla, the Daynes, Bran, or whoever else is going to come out with this story.

And that, in turn, might cause him try to mount one of the dragons.

But it is not that likely that any of Dany's dragons will be free when Jon first encounters them - if he had a dragon of his own earlier it wouldn't be such a contrived setting. I mean, without (temporary) riders Viserion and Rhaegal are going to go nowhere. They will remain in the lairs in the pyramids of Meereen. And once they are claimed by riders those riders first have to die to make way for Jon to claim one of them, not to mention that they must have an actual encounter. That is a lot of stuff to deal with.

3 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

The bodies would have rotted away after a while. It takes around a month for a human corpse to liquefy, and that's not including maggots feeding on a corpse. It also took Dany's dragons seven months after hatching until they learned to fly. Those corpses wouldn't have been enough to sustain a baby dragon for seven months. We also learn from Theons chapters in ADwD that there were squatters at WF. They would have spotted the dragon, and word would have spread. 

Again, there was more than enough meat and pretty much nothing to do. Perhaps this dragons was a larger hatchling than Dany's? Or perhaps it grew faster than hers. Drogon does grow faster than Viserion and Rhaegal, too, and it would have had access to a quantity of charred Dany's dragons didn't have. They didn't eat anything for quite some time because Dany only remembered after a time that dragons only eat charred meat. And it is not that they had a lot of food to spare in the Red Waste.

There is no indication or reason to believe that those squatters arrived at Winterfell while the dragon was still there.

And by the way - the dragon could also have left Winterfell before it had the ability to fly. All it needed was the ability to breathe fire, and that comes very quickly after the hatching. With fire the young dragon could also have killed small animals on the ground. Dragons are top predators, and the wildlife in the North isn't exactly prepared to evade a dragon, be it airborne or not.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, perhaps those 'dead dragon eggs' were never dead, after all. Dany feels they are alive, doesn't she? If the wildfire spells can work again now that dragons are in the world again, why can't dormant dragon eggs awake and hatch? It would make sense in the context of the theme.

Jon's parentage won't be proven by as arbitrary a feature as him jumping one of Dany's dragons. That wouldn't prove that he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, it would merely be a strong indication that he had at least one dragonlord ancestor somewhere down his family line - and it could be rather far down in his family line.

Not to mention that Jon also happens to be a skinchanger. Don't you think a skinchanger could also bend a dragon to his will? Or don't you think that people are going to be inclined to believe that Jon claimed his dragon as a skinchanger even if he did not do it that way?

If Jon's ancestry is going to serve a narrative purpose it will do so because people are actually going to believe Howland, Wylla, the Daynes, Bran, or whoever else is going to come out with this story.

And that, in turn, might cause him try to mount one of the dragons.

But it is not that likely that any of Dany's dragons will be free when Jon first encounters them - if he had a dragon of his own earlier it wouldn't be such a contrived setting. I mean, without (temporary) riders Viserion and Rhaegal are going to go nowhere. They will remain in the lairs in the pyramids of Meereen. And once they are claimed by riders those riders first have to die to make way for Jon to claim one of them, not to mention that they must have an actual encounter. That is a lot of stuff to deal with.

Again, there was more than enough meat and pretty much nothing to do. Perhaps this dragons was a larger hatchling than Dany's? Or perhaps it grew faster than hers. Drogon does grow faster than Viserion and Rhaegal, too, and it would have had access to a quantity of charred Dany's dragons didn't have. They didn't eat anything for quite some time because Dany only remembered after a time that dragons only eat charred meat. And it is not that they had a lot of food to spare in the Red Waste.

There is no indication or reason to believe that those squatters arrived at Winterfell while the dragon was still there.

And by the way - the dragon could also have left Winterfell before it had the ability to fly. All it needed was the ability to breathe fire, and that comes very quickly after the hatching. With fire the young dragon could also have killed small animals on the ground. Dragons are top predators, and the wildlife in the North isn't exactly prepared to evade a dragon, be it airborne or not.

@Lord Varys, how do you see Jon's role in the story? 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Lord Varys, how do you see Jon's role in the story? 

I can't predict the future. There are many possibilities.