Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Apart from the Tigers 

They just don't know it yet ;-). Elephants are really cool!

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

As you say, Aegon merely displaying his eggs in public would do a lot for his legitimacy - how many living people in Westeros have even seen a dragon egg? About two handfuls if your lucky.

Aside from the guys seeing Aerys II's eggs who he found on Dragonstone - and those old enough to have been at court prior to Harrenhal - might have seen some. But it would be very few indeed.

And come to think of it, some of those people could actually recognize some of Aerys II's eggs if Aegon showed up with them, helping to prove that Aegon is who he claims to be. After all, if Varys can steal dragon eggs, he could also steal an infant, no?

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

In regards to a crown being in one of the chests, I imagine Varys would have found his way down to whatever level of the Red Keep the crowns of dead kings were kept, as well as be looking to obtain whatever lost crowns he could. He's had over a decade to try and find all the props he could for his master performance. No doubt Aegon will be wearing a historical crown.

The crowns of Aenys, Aegon IV (Aerys' crown), and Maekar (last worn by Jaehaerys II) should still be around. The Conqueror's, Jaehaerys I's, Aegon III's (last worn by Aegon V) seem to be lost. Aegon III's crown might have been destroyed at Summerhall.

Aenys' golden crown would greatly please the High Septon, presumably, considering that it includes inlaid figurines of the Seven.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

It would be interesting if Aegon, having conquered KL, has his first parlay with Dany on Dragonstone, perhaps in Aegon's Garden.

Could be. Really depends when and how they first meet. Aegon could actually send envoys to his auntie before she even comes to Westeros. They will learn that she moves west long before she lands in Westeros, and both Aegon and Dany will have reason to settle things between them before hostilities break out - which means Dany's people are likely to push Aegon to accept her as a co-ruler while Aegon's people are likely going to try to dissuade Dany from coming to Westeros at all - pushing her to settle down in the Free Cities/Essos and build/tend to her empire there.

In that sense, they could actually first meet face to face in Volantis, Lys, Pentos, etc. Or Dany actually flies to some site for some kind of intimate meeting. Dragonriders are pretty mobile.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

What is your opinion on the current state of Dragonstone? Any chance Loras and Aurane are holding the place for Varys?

I don't think so. Aurane is 'the Lord of the Waters' now, a pirate-lord. He might end up joining Dany or Aegon but right now he seems to be his own man. One could see Aurane pledging himself to Aegon and helping him take Dragonstone in exchange for being named Lord of Driftmark.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I would like to see such an scenario play out. Personally, I think that more dragons would add to the "magic returning" side of the tale.

Yes, and George has repeatedly said magic is going to play a greater role as the story progresses.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Aegon having his own version of Balerion would be very interesting, considering Dany's version is so much smaller. 

It would set the scale for the Second Dance of the Dragons. Even if one of Dany's little dragons ended up on Aegon's or Euron's side, it would hardly be a proper Dance. Dany's dragons fighting each other wouldn't make for an interesting battle.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

How far into TWOW do you think Aegon's siege of KL will take place?

Not sure if it is going to be a siege. I'm pretty sure Varys will ensure that the gates of KL are wide open when Aegon finally arrives. The clash with the Tyrell army should happen in the first half of the novel, so I guess we could have Aegon on the Iron Throne in the second half if things go very smoothly. 

But it would really depend what plot line gets most space in the book. And we don't know that yet. Aegon should get the throne in the book, though. It could be a great ending for his plot if we get a great coronation, a dragon egg hatching, a fanciful wedding feast (Aegon and Arianne), ending with the outbreak of the greyscale pandemic and the news that Daenerys Targaryen is not, in fact, dead, and has decided to come to Westeros. Having some envoy deliver a letter from her, denouncing Aegon as a fake and pretender, could be a very powerful scene.

38 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Also, do you think Aegon getting a dragon of his own would turn him mad with power?

If he had the Cannibal, most definitely. A smaller dragon not so much. However, I don't think Aegon is going to go mad. I think he will make a succession of bad/misguided decisions on the basis of his knowledge/beliefs that are going to make things worse for everybody, including himself and his cause.

Once he has power he'll cling to it, most likely, and along the way he could very well become a tyrant. But I don't think he'll become 'mad' in the sense Aerys II was.

[Leo of House Cartel]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They just don't know it yet ;-). Elephants are really cool!

I cant argue with that!

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aside from the guys seeing Aerys II's eggs who he found on Dragonstone - and those old enough to have been at court prior to Harrenhal - might have seen some. But it would be very few indeed.

And come to think of it, some of those people could actually recognize some of Aerys II's eggs if Aegon showed up with them, helping to prove that Aegon is who he claims to be. After all, if Varys can steal dragon eggs, he could also steal an infant, no?

Could be interesting - some Leyton Hightower, Olenna Tyrell or Walder Frey might be able to confirm Aerys Eggs as evidence for Aegon.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The crowns of Aenys, Aegon IV (Aerys' crown), and Maekar (last worn by Jaehaerys II) should still be around. The Conqueror's, Jaehaerys I's, Aegon III's (last worn by Aegon V) seem to be lost. Aegon III's crown might have been destroyed at Summerhall.

Aenys' golden crown would greatly please the High Septon, presumably, considering that it includes inlaid figurines of the Seven.

 

Of the crowns you listed that are not known to be lost, Aenys' seems most likely for YG to don.

What of The Rogue Prince's Stepstones crown? While probably not the best choice to anoint someone King of Westeros, Aegon wearing Daemon's crown would be pretty cool. Not sure if Viserys put it with the other crowns or if he gave it back to Daemon, mind you.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be. Really depends when and how they first meet. Aegon could actually send envoys to his auntie before she even comes to Westeros. They will learn that she moves west long before she lands in Westeros, and both Aegon and Dany will have reason to settle things between them before hostilities break out - which means Dany's people are likely to push Aegon to accept her as a co-ruler while Aegon's people are likely going to try to dissuade Dany from coming to Westeros at all - pushing her to settle down in the Free Cities/Essos and build/tend to her empire there.

In that sense, they could actually first meet face to face in Volantis, Lys, Pentos, etc. Or Dany actually flies to some site for some kind of intimate meeting. Dragonriders are pretty mobile.

 

If Tyrion does indeed become Dany's advisor, I think he will push her towards giving Aegon a chance.

Interesting that you mentioned Volantis - do you think there will be stone dragon eggs behind the Black Walls? Could be an exciting curveball for George to throw in, especially if Dany takes the city on her way to Westeros.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think so. Aurane is 'the Lord of the Waters' now, a pirate-lord. He might end up joining Dany or Aegon but right now he seems to be his own man. One could see Aurane pledging himself to Aegon and helping him take Dragonstone in exchange for being named Lord of Driftmark.

Even if he isn't already Aegon's man, I could certainly see Aurane joining the party.

I think there is something to the fact that Aurane and Salla both stole royal fleets and headed to the Stepstones, around the same time. Their Valyrian descent, past "loyalty" to Stannis and pirate nature just screams to me the type of people who want to do business with each other. 

Hopefully one, or both of them, will be playing the part of the Sea Snake come the next Dance.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would set the scale for the Second Dance of the Dragons. Even if one of Dany's little dragons ended up on Aegon's or Euron's side, it would hardly be a proper Dance. Dany's dragons fighting each other wouldn't make for an interesting battle.

Yeah, I don't think the second Dance will just be Drogon VS one or both of his siblings.  

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if it is going to be a siege. I'm pretty sure Varys will ensure that the gates of KL are wide open when Aegon finally arrives. The clash with the Tyrell army should happen in the first half of the novel, so I guess we could have Aegon on the Iron Throne in the second half if things go very smoothly. 

But it would really depend what plot line gets most space in the book. And we don't know that yet. Aegon should get the throne in the book, though. It could be a great ending for his plot if we get a great coronation, a dragon egg hatching, a fanciful wedding feast (Aegon and Arianne), ending with the outbreak of the greyscale pandemic and the news that Daenerys Targaryen is not, in fact, dead, and has decided to come to Westeros. Having some envoy deliver a letter from her, denouncing Aegon as a fake and pretender, could be a very powerful scene.

Sounds very bittersweet for poor YG, but highly entertaining. 

I imagine Aegon's plot will take up a good amount of the tale, with a few POV's featuring him and Arianne, JonCon, Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime also having inner monologues about the boy. 

When will Dany begin to head West? I know many believe she will arrive in Westeros at the end of TWOW, but I wonder if she might arrive sooner?

I don't think her interactions with the Dothraki will last more than a chapter or two before she returns to Mereen. If the Battle of Fire happens early in the novel, and the city is in ruins, there wouldn't seem to be much for her to do in Slaver's Bay.

 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 7:46 AM, Lord Vance II said:

Not in the time frame of the books, maybe decades in the future. They're babies. 

Her dragons are, what, like 3 years old? Sure they're gigantic and ferocious, but I seriously doubt their sexually mature, especially considering how long their lives can be. It's a general rule of nature that longer-lived animals take longer to sexually mature. Humans average lifespan is like 75 or so and we don't sexually mature until were in our teens. Dragons can easily make it 100+. They're in no hurry.

Of course, "nature" might not matter to a dragon, and them being reptiles (Kind of, I guess? Warm-blooded reptiles?) might change the rules, but I just don't think they're old enough. 

I had not considered this... I figure though GRRM won't give us an explanation for the biological natures of the Dragons, he will either write them to mate and lay eggs, or he won't, whichever he pleases.

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Westeroes was a feudal society to begin with. So it was always a society ruled by a privellaged class because they have the means unleash cataclysmic destruction all the while claiming they have divine right. Dragons didn't change. Hell, in some instances the Targaryens were able to skirt age old violations of basic rights such as, you don't have to worry about your lord coming to rape your wife on your wedding night. And quite frankly I have to say the Targyens use of dragons in war has enabled them to fight wars much more cleanly; far less rape and murder of civilians by soldiers ramped up on the adrenaline of battle.

I dig what you're saying here, I don't like the feudal society, but the Lords have the means to unleash cataclysmic destruction because of Varys' whole "power resides where men believe it resides" riddle - Joffrey was powerful because people chose to go with it.  He wasn't some bitchin' fire breathing demon who could singularly perform all of his violence to get others to submit.

As for Targaryens doing away with first night and all that, yeah some Targs did some good things and some did some bad things, but having all of that actual (not perceived but actual) power in too few hands is dangerous.  Imagine it is Ramsay Snow or Varamyr Sixskins with a dragon instead of Daenerys.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They just don't know it yet ;-). Elephants are really cool!

Bit are they as cool as tigers? Let me ask my six year old...

Yeap, as I expected, tigers are cooler than elephants. Let me know if you want me to ask him about dragons and prehistoric wolves. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Certainly. Regardless whether Illyrio bought those dragon eggs in Asshai or whether Varys stole those eggs Aerys II found on Dragonstone and handed them to Illyrio, Illyrio is not likely to throw all those eggs at Daenerys to disappear in the Dothraki Sea.

Regardless whether the eggs hatch or not, Aegon could greatly profit from the symbolic power dragons eggs can give him. They would make him look legitimate. They would help him look Targaryen. And he can need that.

If George hadn't put at least three dragon eggs in some of those chests George would deliberately create a huge plot hole here. Regardless whether they later hatch or not. I mean, it would be an interesting plot point if Aegon had his own young dragon later on (see my idea that one of the egg's hatches during his coronation feast) but it could also make for an interesting story if he started to try to hatch the eggs he has, in an attempt to acquire the power and prestige he is most definitely going to need to deal with both Euron and Daenerys.

And, I mean, what do we expect to be in those chests? Blackfyre (and/or Dark Sister) would fit in one chest. What's in the other chests? There could be other Targaryen memorabilia - Queen Rhaella's crown (bought back from the person Viserys sold it to), the Conqueror's crown (or a replica thereof) bought from the Dornishmen, Jaehaerys I's crown (tracked down by Varys), Aerys II's crown (stolen by Varys along with the dragon eggs), etc. but in the end dragon eggs are the most likely valuables to be found in there.

They would be not just props but potentially relevant to the plot.

I am not so sure... Perhaps, when Illyrio gave Daenerys the eggs, he had a few more for Aegon, but now that Daenerys has hatched hers, the pressure would be on for Aegon to hatch his, if he had one. Those strong young boys of Rhaenrya benefitted when their hatched, but some took it as an omen when the egg od Viserys, the younger son of Rhaenrya and Daemon Targaryen, did not hatch. That type of prestige might backfire like giving the lad the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, which was perhaps more famously wielded by Daemon Blackfyre. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I had not considered this... I figure though GRRM won't give us an explanation for the biological natures of the Dragons, he will either write them to mate and lay eggs, or he won't, whichever he pleases.

I dig what you're saying here, I don't like the feudal society, but the Lords have the means to unleash cataclysmic destruction because of Varys' whole "power resides where men believe it resides" riddle - Joffrey was powerful because people chose to go with it.  He wasn't some bitchin' fire breathing demon who could singularly perform all of his violence to get others to submit.

As for Targaryens doing away with first night and all that, yeah some Targs did some good things and some did some bad things, but having all of that actual (not perceived but actual) power in too few hands is dangerous.  Imagine it is Ramsay Snow or Varamyr Sixskins with a dragon instead of Daenerys.

Fair point.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am not so sure... Perhaps, when Illyrio gave Daenerys the eggs, he had a few more for Aegon, but now that Daenerys has hatched hers, the pressure would be on for Aegon to hatch his, if he had one. Those strong young boys of Rhaenrya benefitted when their hatched, but some took it as an omen when the egg od Viserys, the younger son of Rhaenrya and Daemon Targaryen, did not hatch. That type of prestige might backfire like giving the lad the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, which was perhaps more famously wielded by Daemon Blackfyre. 

Then what is in those chests. Plural. You don't need chests for a sword. You don't even need a chest for a sword. But even if he had put it into a chest you could squeeze a lot other stuff into a chest. Like a crown, or any other Targaryen memorabilia we could come up with.

But why give the lad multiple chests? What's in there. Most definitely not proper clothes...

As to your Rhaenyra example: I really doubt Illyrio is cares about dead Targaryen history.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:49 AM, MaesterFredson said:

Will Dany's Dragons, some day in the future, lay any eggs? 

prophecy said Dany won't have kids, what about her dragons?

Of course we have to assume they will, poetic reasons they need to so Dany's new world can continue, right?

assuming GRRM thought about this, not an over sight.

Excited to hear what the pros have to say! Thanks!

Are Dany’s dragons going to lay eggs? Things move slow in these books. Her children are about three years of age. If a dragon ages at the rate that dogs do, in human years that would mean her dragons are 21. Yeah, I guess since Martin’s dragons are neither male nor female until he deems it necessary De Na Na’s dragons could lay eggs.

Where are those dragons hanging out in DWD?

Drogon has been flying free for a while and now has his mother out there somewhere.

After Quentin’s failed attempt to tame a dragon –

Viserion is hold up in one of the pyramids. Rhaegal has claimed a different pyramid.

There is also a WoW chapter that speaks of the second siege of Meereen in which Vis & Rha get a bit cranky.

There is bound to be some ssm out there or some remarks in the short stories that detail how dragons mate or do not mate yet procreate.

[Lost Melnibonean]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then what is in those chests. Plural. You don't need chests for a sword. You don't even need a chest for a sword. But even if he had put it into a chest you could squeeze a lot other stuff into a chest. Like a crown, or any other Targaryen memorabilia we could come up with.

But why give the lad multiple chests? What's in there. Most definitely not proper clothes...

All we know for sure is a suit of armor and court clothes. I do not know what else is in there, not having had a peek myself. Perhaps you had such a peek? If not, you guess is just a guess. But we do know there is no gold for the Golden Company ('cause beneath the gold, the bitter steel). 

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As to your Rhaenyra example: I really doubt Illyrio is cares about dead Targaryen history.

I am sure you would know best as to what is going on in the head of that fictional character conjured up by the George. 

[Fire Eater]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no proof that Alyn of Hull was the full brother of Addam of Hull. The fact that they had the same mother, Marilda of Hull, doesn't mean Corlys or Laenor Velaryon was the father of both of the boys.

The dragon didn't got them legitimized, Corlys and Jacaerys did. They asked Rhaenyra to do it. If Rhaenyra had wanted she could also have declared Nettles Daemon's bastard daughter and Ulf and Hugh her long-lost half-brothers, or something of that sort. She did not.

It is not that monarchs are beholden to the truth when they decree something. If they want, they could adopt some random peasant and make them their legitimized bastard.

Maybe, but fortunately in Jon's case there is no brother, just him. 

But they weren't legitimized until after Addam mounted a dragon, not before. The fact that maesters dispute his origins means it isn't public knowledge that he was Corlys's son, and that Corlys never publicly acknowledged him as his son. All that is publicly known is that Addam mounted Seasmoke, claiming to be Laenor's son, and was accepted as a Velaryon right after that. That could taken as precedent for proving one's dragon lineage. The problem with your analogy regarding Nettle, Ulf and Hugh was that they didn't claim to be the children of Targaryens or Velaryons. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is Melantha Blackwood, of course. But I never said (we knew) there was dragonblood in one of the families the Starks intermarried with during the ages. I said it is possible that some dragonblood ended up one such bloodline (even the Starks own) by a king impregnating somebody else's wife or by one of the houses the Starks married into being descended from a bastard of Aegon IV or some other illegitimate Targaryen cadet branch.

And besides, if Dany insisted to believe the word of the honorable Ned Stark - as she would be free to do so - she could just as well assume that Jon Snow's mystery mother was some Targaryen descendant

If you don't want to believe Jon Snow's fairy-tale story one could claim that's how he can claim a dragon. And then he would be in Ulf/Hugh's league, not in the league of the royals.

The Targaryen bloodline didn't marry into Northern houses, and their marriages have been documented. The only sources are Houses Velaryon, Plumm (a few Westerlands houses that married into them), a few Dornish houses and Baratheon and a few stormlands houses. It's a very long shot, and I think the consensus is the Starks have no blood of the dragon. 

The proof that Jon is Rhaegar's would be stronger than being through the female line given no one knows who his mother was. 

That is why the dragon is important to prove his heritage. Wylla would provide testimony, and Ashara Dayne if she is alive. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany will learn that scum and people who should lack the ability to claim a dragon have claimed one or two of her dragons. Why on earth do you think Dragonbinder was introduced into the story? If Brown Ben and Victarion may be able to become dragonriders, anybody can. Claiming a dragon will prove nothing, and there won't be any reason to make claiming a dragon a test to prove somebody's ancestry - or rather: the political claim that might be connected with that ancestry.

Besides this is a completely artificial scenario where you are imagining there is tension or conflict between Dany and Jon at that point in their story. I reject that whole scenario out of hand. Those two are not set up to become rivals or enemies. If that was the case, then Jon Snow would be Aegon, not Jon Snow. He would have been raised as a hidden prince, and been prepared to take the throne that is his by right one day.

We will get a conflict between Dany and Aegon - another conflict between Dany and Jon would be nothing but an echo or a ripoff of that scenario. It would and cheapen both their stories.

Should Dany ever meet and treat with Aegon I could see her offering him one of her dragons to test him - assuming had a riderless dragon with her at that time. After all, by that time she might have strong evidence that Aegon is not, in fact, Rhaegar's son.

With Jon it might be completely differently. Dany knows that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. She might also know that Lyanna was pregnant by Rhaegar when she died. It might not be difficult for her to believe the Jon Snow story once she finally hears it. Far to the contrary, actually. And with Wylla and the Daynes still out there she might end up getting information on the existence of this son of Rhaegar and Lyanna long before she actually encounters Jon Snow.

There's one problem with the first paragraph: Jon doesn't have a dragonhorn. If he used it, she would clearly know given the noise those things make. It also wouldn't prove his claim. 

I think no hints suggests to them starting out as friends or enemies. However, remember she is going to be fighting Stannis whom Jon has thrown in with along with the North. She also has no love for House Stark who she remembers as the Usurper's dogs. So, the chances are good their relationship may be more likely to start out antagonistic. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

More than enough time for the dragon to eat more than enough of it.

No, the baby dragon doesn't know it's going to be its last meal for six months. Besides, dragons need to eat regularly, pretty much daily from what we've read in ADwD, and six months without food would kill many endothermic animals with that kind of a metabolism. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maturity means you are able to procreate. It has nothing to do with size. Dany's dragons might very well already be able to procreate at this point. Or not. We don't know it yet.

 Yeah, we haven't seen them try. I don't think they can procreate yet, and it will likely be a couple of years at least. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those weren't personal remarks. I told you not to invent stuff or present things you invented as facts. You are doing that.

 Those remarks were speaking about, not the subject at hand, but the speaker. How is that not personal? '

As to the second point, compared to what you've been saying that have no evidence? That dragons can survive six months without food? That meat doesn't rot away after a month? That some dragons have accelerated aging? 

I'm using observations from the books along with knowledge of biology. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence that Drogon was first able to breathe fire at the House of the Undying. You claiming that doesn't make it so. He already breathed smoke immediately after he hatched. Who are you to say that he couldn't have breathed fire after gorging himself on two charred human corpses immediately after his birth?

Perhaps because they grew accustomed to being fed by their mother and her servants? Dany's dragons are domesticated dragons. They grew up around humans and didn't view them as prey but as their caretakers. The hypothetical dragon we are talking about her would have been grown up alone in the wild.

Then why did she still need to char meat for him if he could just cook it himself up to that point? Then why was that the first time we saw any of the dragons breathe fire? I think it would have been mentioned if they could start breathing flame. It clearly takes many months before they learn how to fly or breathe fire. I see nothing in the text that provides a counter-example.  

You claimed they could breathe fire as soon as they hatched. If that was true they would have roasted the pieces of uncharred meat she first offered them. Wild or not, if Drogon is anything to go by, it would take months before this hypothetical hatchling would be able to breathe fire. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why would you think that? Because you think George would have give you information about stuff like that? Why should he? Why do you think it is important when those hatchlings left the hatcheries?

I'm pointing out that it wasn't stated how old they were when they left for the wild. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

All we know for sure is a suit of armor and court clothes.

We don't know that for sure. That's the ridiculous nonsense Haldon came up with on the fly. Tyrion doesn't buy it, and neither should we. Aegon didn't intend to meet Dany at a court. They intended him to meet a beggar queen at Volantis, with the Golden Company at their back. Whatever clothes they may have needed for the occasion could have been bought in Volantis.

Quote

I do not know what else is in there, not having had a peek myself. Perhaps you had such a peek? If not, you guess is just a guess. But we do know there is no gold for the Golden Company ('cause beneath the gold, the bitter steel). 

We don't need bad poetry for that, we have Tyrion seeing that the chests are too light to contain gold. It is also ridiculous to assume that they need gold to buy anything. If Illyrio can bribe a triarch of Volantis he should have more than a little credit in the Volantene banks. If they needed gold, they would not carry it with them on their stupid boat down the Rhoyne and risk losing it on the river. They would just go in a Volantene bank and pick it up there.

Quote

I am sure you would know best as to what is going on in the head of that fictional character conjured up by the George. 

I'm as qualified as anybody else. Ask yourself: Does Illyrio Mopatis strike you as the kind of guy who would read boring history books? The man likes to eat and mock Westerosi for their ridiculous sigils and savage ways. He is a Pentoshi, body and soul, never mind who his great-grandmother was.

I'm not holding my breath that this guy cares about stuff you can basically only read in some manuscript that hasn't been edited yet.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

Maybe, but fortunately in Jon's case there is no brother, just him.

Jon doesn't have any living parents who would besiege the queen to legitimize him or adopt him into House Targaryen. Addam and Alyn of Hull did have a living Velaryon (grand-)father and a royal half-brother/nephew who actually were interested in making those people part of their family.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

But they weren't legitimized until after Addam mounted a dragon, not before. The fact that maesters dispute his origins means it isn't public knowledge that he was Corlys's son, and that Corlys never publicly acknowledged him as his son. All that is publicly known is that Addam mounted Seasmoke, claiming to be Laenor's son, and was accepted as a Velaryon right after that. That could taken as precedent for proving one's dragon lineage. The problem with your analogy regarding Nettle, Ulf and Hugh was that they didn't claim to be the children of Targaryens or Velaryons. 

Nonsense, those children were legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's sons by Queen Rhaenyra. That's part of public record. What's not clear is whether that was 'the truth'. But it is what people pretended to be true. Nobody said anything that Rhaenyra liked the fact that Addam rode Seasmoke or that she legitimized him and Alyn because he rode that dragon.

Correlation isn't causation, as you should well know.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

The Targaryen bloodline didn't marry into Northern houses, and their marriages have been documented. The only sources are Houses Velaryon, Plumm (a few Westerlands houses that married into them), a few Dornish houses and Baratheon and a few stormlands houses. It's a very long shot, and I think the consensus is the Starks have no blood of the dragon.

I don't care what you think the consensus. I care about facts. And the facts are that neither you nor I know whether the Starks have dragonlord ancestors or not.

It is also irrelevant into what houses the Targaryens married into that context because there are illegitimate children and descent through the female line.

It is also irrelevant what you or I believe - the point just is that people in Westeros can dismiss Jon's 'royal ancestry' this easily if he becomes a dragonrider. Dragonriding doesn't come with a royal pedigree.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

The proof that Jon is Rhaegar's would be stronger than being through the female line given no one knows who his mother was.

Nobody has to know or prove who Jon's mother is to dismiss him as a motherless Stark bastard. Nobody is going to waste debating the ancestry of characters-.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

That is why the dragon is important to prove his heritage. 

A dragon won't prove anything.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

There's one problem with the first paragraph: Jon doesn't have a dragonhorn. If he used it, she would clearly know given the noise those things make. It also wouldn't prove his claim. 

How do you know that Jon is going to use a trick like Dragonbinder or his skinchanger ability to claim a dragon?

But this isn't really the point. The point is that if people do this - and it looks like they will do it - then Dany could dismiss Jon as a vile sorcerer and cheater even if he is not. She doesn't have to prove that he cheated, it is enough that she claims he cheated. Her people will believe her. She is House Targaryen.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

I think no hints suggests to them starting out as friends or enemies. However, remember she is going to be fighting Stannis whom Jon has thrown in with along with the North. She also has no love for House Stark who she remembers as the Usurper's dogs. So, the chances are good their relationship may be more likely to start out antagonistic.

It makes no sense to speculate about Stannis and Dany's hypothetical relationship. Stannis has to live long enough to see her come to Westeros. And it is not a given that this happens. Not to mention that Jon and Stannis' relationship isn't exactly written in stone. Should Stannis live, it might change dramatically. After all, it would be boring if everybody would suddenly going to get along.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

No, the baby dragon doesn't know it's going to be its last meal for six months. Besides, dragons need to eat regularly, pretty much daily from what we've read in ADwD, and six months without food would kill many endothermic animals with that kind of a metabolism. 

The fact that they do eat daily doesn't mean they have to eat daily. Besides, the dragon would have had charred meat available each day for at least a month, no? 

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

As to the second point, compared to what you've been saying that have no evidence? That dragons can survive six months without food? That meat doesn't rot away after a month? That some dragons have accelerated aging?

Dragons are magical creatures. There are no rules there.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

I'm using observations from the books along with knowledge of biology. 

Both are irrelevant in this context. The dragons could suddenly start to speak or grow themselves some wheels and we would have to accept that. They are magical creatures. And George himself has said that they will grow as large as his story requires them to be. If he wants a three-year-old Drogon to be as large as Balerion he'll grow as large, never mind that there is no historical precedent for any of that.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

Then why did she still need to char meat for him if he could just cook it himself up to that point? Then why was that the first time we saw any of the dragons breathe fire? I think it would have been mentioned if they could start breathing flame. It clearly takes many months before they learn how to fly or breathe fire. I see nothing in the text that provides a counter-example. 

The text isn't written as a manual to provide you with fodder for your arguments. It covers only things relevant to the story. Your opinion that the text would have mentioned event X if it happened doesn't have any bearing on the matter at hand because we simply don't know whether the author cared to give us the information or not.

When exactly the dragons started to breathe fire isn't as important as Dany bathing in a pool full of fish. The fact that there is a moment X when we, the readers, first see a dragon breathe fire doesn't mean this is the first time said dragon did that. Or does the author claim Drogon first breathed fire in the House of the Undying? No.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

You claimed they could breathe fire as soon as they hatched.

I never said that. I said that Drogon breathed smoke when he hatched. And that a dragon hatching at Winterfell had sufficient charred meat to live long enough until it was capable of fending for itself.

There is also no reason to assume that Dany's dragons are representative for all newly-hatched dragons. We cannot do that. Neither can we compare dragons being living on mother's milk until they finally figured out that they needed cooked meat to a dragon who would have been able to find the proper food immediately after his birth. Perhaps a dragon gorging himself on a lot of good food immediately after birth would grow and develop much more quickly than Dany's dragons?

You have offered nothing to dismiss that possibility. You can say you don't like the idea (I don't like it myself all that much) but it is a real possibility in this story. In fact, it is also possible that there is really a living dragon beneath Winterfell, heating the hot pools. This is a fantasy story, after all.

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

If that was true they would have roasted the pieces of uncharred meat she first offered them. Wild or not, if Drogon is anything to go by, it would take months before this hypothetical hatchling would be able to breathe fire. 

How do you know that? Perhaps it takes time for them to develop the instinct to do this, even if they are already capable?

7 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

I'm pointing out that it wasn't stated how old they were when they left for the wild. 

That is irrelevant. It doesn't follow that us not knowing when those dragons left means they left at a certain age, nor does it mean your any general rules you think you can draw from the example of Dany's dragons apply to other dragons.

[Fire Eater]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon doesn't have any living parents who would besiege the queen to legitimize him or adopt him into House Targaryen. Addam and Alyn of Hull did have a living Velaryon (grand-)father and a royal half-brother/nephew who actually were interested in making those people part of their family.

He has people at the ToJ, with the Daynes having been friends of Rhaegar. It is going to be confirmed eventually, or why put it in the story in the first place?

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Nonsense, those children were legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's sons by Queen Rhaenyra. That's part of public record. What's not clear is whether that was 'the truth'. But it is what people pretended to be true. Nobody said anything that Rhaenyra liked the fact that Addam rode Seasmoke or that she legitimized him and Alyn because he rode that dragon.

Correlation isn't causation, as you should well know.

They were legitimized after Addam mounted Seasmoke. That is taken to mean that mounting a dragon proves that one has blood of the dragon. Don't tell me mounting a dragon had nothing to do with the decision to legitimize the boys. 

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

A dragon won't prove anything.

How do you know that Jon is going to use a trick like Dragonbinder or his skinchanger ability to claim a dragon?

But this isn't really the point. The point is that if people do this - and it looks like they will do it - then Dany could dismiss Jon as a vile sorcerer and cheater even if he is not. She doesn't have to prove that he cheated, it is enough that she claims he cheated. Her people will believe her. She is House Targaryen.

A dragon proves he has blood of the dragon, and lends evidence to his claim. It wouldn't be taken to prove Jon's heritage alone, but also Howland, Wylla's and possibly, the Daynes' testimony. 

Where would Jon get a Dragonhorn? A Dragonhorn also kills whoever blows it, and I doubt Jon would ever sacrifice someone with that thing. It also wouldn't help him given everyone would hear it, and know he used it. So using the horn wouldn't prove his Targaryen heritage. As for skinchanging, GRRM said there is no record of a dragon having been warged, so I don't know where Dany would get the idea with no one she knows or any Southron allies, will know he is a skinchanger. Hell, most people in the North don't know, except a few at the Wall. Dany and Jon would have just met in that scenario, and she likely wouldn't have heard about his skinchanging. 

To tell you the truth, I think Jon would skinchange a dragon before he tries to mount it to potentially avoid a horrible death. His dragonblood would at least get his foot through the door. 

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

The fact that they do eat daily doesn't mean they have to eat daily. Besides, the dragon would have had charred meat available each day for at least a month, no? 

Well, in ADwD, they go off to hunt, so they control their eating schedules and food portions. That they have to eat daily suggests they have to, and they can't go for long stretches of time without food. Hell, I think judging by Drogon's actions when he arrives back in Meereen which is eat Barsena and the boar, he left his cave because he was running out of food. The hatchling would need to find a supply of charred meat for six more months after the corpses decompose.    

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

Dragons are magical creatures. There are no rules there.

Both are irrelevant in this context. The dragons could suddenly start to speak or grow themselves some wheels and we would have to accept that. They are magical creatures. And George himself has said that they will grow as large as his story requires them to be. If he wants a three-year-old Drogon to be as large as Balerion he'll grow as large, never mind that there is no historical precedent for any of that.

So are direwolves (they have some form of telepathic bond from what we've seen of the Starks when warging into them), yet there are rules. I know you know that GRRM would never do things like have them speak or grow wheels, he keeps magic at a certain limit. He is using some level of magic realism. There are rules such as some magic requiring blood sacrifice, and the higher the level of magic the greater the number of sacrifices.  

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

The text isn't written as a manual to provide you with fodder for your arguments. It covers only things relevant to the story. Your opinion that the text would have mentioned event X if it happened doesn't have any bearing on the matter at hand because we simply don't know whether the author cared to give us the information or not.

When exactly the dragons started to breathe fire isn't as important as Dany bathing in a pool full of fish. The fact that there is a moment X when we, the readers, first see a dragon breathe fire doesn't mean this is the first time said dragon did that. Or does the author claim Drogon first breathed fire in the House of the Undying? No.

I'm going for a strict interpretation while you seem to be going for a looser one. I'm using the scientific method. Dany's dragons are the only ones we see grow up in the series, and they're the only evidence we have. 

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

I never said that. I said that Drogon breathed smoke when he hatched. And that a dragon hatching at Winterfell had sufficient charred meat to live long enough until it was capable of fending for itself.

There is also no reason to assume that Dany's dragons are representative for all newly-hatched dragons. We cannot do that. Neither can we compare dragons being living on mother's milk until they finally figured out that they needed cooked meat to a dragon who would have been able to find the proper food immediately after his birth. Perhaps a dragon gorging himself on a lot of good food immediately after birth would grow and develop much more quickly than Dany's dragons?

You have offered nothing to dismiss that possibility. You can say you don't like the idea (I don't like it myself all that much) but it is a real possibility in this story. In fact, it is also possible that there is really a living dragon beneath Winterfell, heating the hot pools. This is a fantasy story, after all.

Smoke didn't mean he was able to breathe fire yet. All we know is Drogon first breathed fire seven months after hatching. Let's say a dragon can possibly learn earlier at five months, that still leaves four months without food. A hatchling couldn't have survived unassisted for months without food with a metabolism that requires it to eat many times a week. 

Well, Dany's dragons are the template. They're the closest thing to evidence. Any other is speculation at his point. I don't think there is anything that says more food = faster maturation, but it can result in a bigger, fatter baby dragon. I think in nature, it generally doesn't work that way with the exception of malnourishment, which can stunt growth.  

As to the bolded, that isn't how burden of proof works. The burden is generally supposed to fall on the person who makes the claim "X causes Y" (Dragons can mature much faster than Dany's) that challenges the status quo not the person who claims "X doesn't cause Y" or the status quo. Otherwise, if it were the other way around, the burden would be on you to disprove my theory that in space there is an entire planet made of spaghetti with a giant meatball for a moon. 

My claims regarding dragon maturation have evidence in the form of Dany's dragons, which even if you think it isn't much, is still more than the evidence you have for your claims which is to say, none. 

The heating pools are clearly caused by hot springs, otherwise how would a dragon survive deep underground without food or air?

On 3/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? Perhaps it takes time for them to develop the instinct to do this, even if they are already capable?

That still means they weren't able to breathe fire. It is an ability that takes a while to develop like young cobras learning to control the injection of venom from their fangs. 

[Lollygag]

I don’t see how more eggs would add to the story unless we’re going into 8 books or there’s some sort of post-ASOIAF project in the works.

About Jon riding a dragon...There’s a lot of set up for Jon and the Starks in general being perceived in a negative light for their skinchanging and warging particularly in the south. This will be especially true if they ever come to be associated with or blamed for Nymeria’s pack in the Riverlands. The Lannisters have been spreading rumors about the Starks' warging/skinchanging/sorcery all over and I have to imagine the Starks will struggle to deal with it in the future. If people want to believe Jon is a Targ if he rides a dragon, they’ll believe it. If they want to not believe it, they’ll fall back on warging/skinchanging/sorcery. Which is how the story rolls: GRRM creates muddled situations allowing characters to justify their own choices. 

 

AGOT Tyrion IX

"The camp between the rivers was overrun as well," the messenger was saying. "While we were trying to cross, more Starks swept in from the west, two columns of armored horse. I saw Lord Umber's giant-in-chains and the Mallister eagle, but it was the boy who led them, with a monstrous wolf running at his side. I wasn't there to see, but it's said the beast killed four men and ripped apart a dozen horses. Our spearmen formed up a shieldwall and held against their first charge, but when the Tullys saw them engaged, they opened the gates of Riverrun and Tytos Blackwood led a sortie across the drawbridge and took them in the rear." 

 

ACOK Sansa III

"Kneeling won't save you now," the king said. "Stand up. You're here to answer for your brother's latest treasons."

"Your Grace, whatever my traitor brother has done, I had no part. You know that, I beg you, please—"

"Get her up!"

The Hound pulled her to her feet, not ungently.

"Ser Lancel," Joff said, "tell her of this outrage."

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."

Horror coiled cold hands around Sansa's throat.

"You have nothing to say?" asked Joffrey.

"Your Grace, the poor child is shocked witless," murmured Ser Dontos.

"Silence, fool." Joffrey lifted his crossbow and pointed it at her face. "You Starks are as unnatural as those wolves of yours. I've not forgotten how your monster savaged me."

…

"This girl's to be your queen," the Imp told Joffrey. "Have you no regard for her honor?"

"I'm punishing her."

"For what crime? She did not fight her brother's battle."

"She has the blood of a wolf."

…

"Ser Lancel said Robb led an army of wargs . . ."

The Imp gave a disdainful bark of laughter. "Ser Lancel's a wineskin warrior who wouldn't know a warg from a wart. Your brother had his direwolf with him, but I suspect that's as far as it went. The northmen crept into my uncle's camp and cut his horse lines, and Lord Stark sent his wolf among them. Even war-trained destriers went mad. Knights were trampled to death in their pavilions, and the rabble woke in terror and fled, casting aside their weapons to run the faster. Ser Stafford was slain as he chased after a horse. Lord Rickard Karstark drove a lance through his chest. Ser Rubert Brax is also dead, along with Ser Lymond Vikary, Lord Crakehall, and Lord Jast. Half a hundred more have been taken captive, including Jast's sons and my nephew Martyn Lannister. Those who survived are spreading wild tales and swearing that the old gods of the north march with your brother."

"Then . . . there was no sorcery?"

Lannister snorted. "Sorcery is the sauce fools spoon over failure to hide the flavor of their own incompetence. My mutton-headed uncle had not even troubled to post sentries, it would seem. His host was raw—apprentice boys, miners, fieldhands, fisherfolk, the sweepings of Lannisport. The only mystery is how your brother reached him. Our forces still hold the stronghold at the Golden Tooth, and they swear he did not pass." The dwarf gave an irritated shrug. "Well, Robb Stark is my father's bane. Joffrey is mine. Tell me, what do you feel for my kingly nephew?"

 

ASOS Jaime VII

"The dwarf's wife did the murder with him," swore an archer in Lord Rowan's livery. "Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws."

 

ASOS Arya XIII

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

 

[Megorova]

If Dany's dragons will ever lay eggs, then first will be Viseryon. I think Viseryon is actually a female, so she should be called Visenya. Could be that Rhaegel is also a female. That's because the two of them are smaller than Drogon. And also because other two dragonriders will be males - Jon Snow and Rhaego. So Dany, a female dragonlord, will be flying on a male dragon, and two male dragonlords will be flying on female dragons. For symmetry.

Though the main reason why I think, that at least Viseryon/Visenya is a female, is because she made a nest. ADWD, The Dragontamer:

Quote

Rhaegal was chained to the wall and floor the last time I was here, the prince recalled, but Viserion hung from the ceiling. Quentyn stepped back, lifted the torch, craned his head back.

For a moment he saw only the blackened arches of the bricks above, scorched by dragonflame. A trickle of ash caught his eye, betraying movement. Something pale, half-hidden, stirring. He’s made himself a cave, the prince realized. A burrow in the brick. The foundations of the Great Pyramid of Meereen were massive and thick to support the weight of the huge structure overhead; even the interior walls were three times thicker than any castle’s curtain walls. But Viserion had dug himself a hole in them with flame and claw, a hole big enough to sleep in.

And we’ve just woken him. He could see what looked like some huge white serpent uncoiling inside the wall, up where it curved to become the ceiling. More ash went drifting downward, and a bit of crumbling brick fell away. The serpent resolved itself into a neck and tail, and then the dragon’s long horned head appeared, his eyes glowing in the dark like golden coals. His wings rattled, stretching.

Female snakes make nests, to lay there their eggs.