Tai Pan Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 We read about the accomplishments of great people. Great people of both genders and from every corner of the world. I want to limit this talk for now in order to keep it short to the following men: Aegon Targaryen, the conqueror who united the people of Westeros and built the 7 kingdoms. Robert Baratheon, who usurped the throne from the Targaryens. Khal Drogo, the man who was undefeated in battle and led the largest khalasar in Essos. Mance Rayder, the Night's Watch traitor who deserted over to the wildlings and rose to become their king. Brynden Rivers, the Targaryen bastard who served as Hand, put down a rebellion, rose to lead the Night's Watch, and retired beneath the weirwoods. People in the story have this attraction to people who can fight and lead armies into battle. Theirs is obviously a world where fighting skills and battle leadership are greatly admired because force is how you get the power to make things happen. Force is a means to power, and power is a means to make real your goals. Keeping goals generic, it can mean something like glory, wealth, social change, dominance over others, knowledge. Whatever it is, force is usually the means to get it. For example, craven Samwell Tarly is never going to get the same recognition as the fighter Jon Snow. We may not like it but fighting skills are more important for them. Savvy business people like Walder Frey, Petyr Baelish, and Wyman Manderly do not get the hero status that somebody like Corbray gets even though these men are big successes in their own right. So anyway, I just wanted to set the stage for why I chose the people above and left out some others. I want to narrow the talk down further to Aegon, Drogo, and Mance. It goes without saying the Aegon is a great man who accomplished a lot in his lifetime. But we also should recognize the achievements of Drogo and Mance. While both men will never have the prestige in Westeros that Aegon has, it is due to the fact that they are coming from a different culture. They rose to power but did it under a different setting and fought their way to the top in their own way. Yes, they fought, but not necessarily in a Westeros type battle under the same honor system. Drogo and Mance are savages in the eyes of Westeros but their accomplishments are nothing to dismiss easily. The Dothraki has been said to follow only the strong. Only the strongest become kings (khals) of khalasars. A man who has never cut his braids, who has never lost is indeed special. Likewise, Mance is great also because he rose up where leadership is not passed down through the family but must be earned. The free folk follow the strong. Drogo built the largest khalasar in Essos and Mance united most of the wildlings. Is it justified for someone in Westeros to think these men lesser than they? Is Drogo any more savage than the Boltons, who enjoy flaying people? Mance is an oath breaker and his attack on the wall killed many of his former comrades. Rebellion is a form of oathbreaking and going to war means you kill your fellow countryman. Is there a big difference between Robb and Mance? Do not get me wrong. I am not excusing the Dothraki practice of selling people to slavery. I do not make light of Mance and his desertion. All I am saying is, these men are as great as the heroes of Westeros. I am not saying what they did is morally good. I am saying they accomplished something very difficult just like Aegon, Robert, and Bloodraven. A savage man is no less a man, no less intelligent, no less capable. You were expecting a question. Maybe a poll. I'm just making an observation because we were introduced to Westeros first and we were exposed to many POVs from the Westerosi perspective. We all know now that can sway our initial opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 None of these men are particularly great in my book. Aegon had dragons. That's pretty much the extent of his greatness. Without them he would be little different from the average lord Velaryon, and would barely be a footnote in history. Theon Stark, by comparison, had a lifetime of victorious wars against a multitude of enemies on all fronts - East, West, North and South - as his accomplishments. Conventional wars, without the magic wand of Dragons to win his battles for him. To me his accomplishments were far greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: None of these men are particularly great in my book. Aegon had dragons. That's pretty much the extent of his greatness. Without them he would be little different from the average lord Velaryon, and would barely be a footnote in history. The Targs before him also had Dragons and none achieved what he did. His descendent also had Dragons, Jaehaerys and Viserys had far, far more in fact, and they did not conquer any new lands with them. Aegon is a Great man. Like the majority of great men he built on the privileges that he was born with but he turned Westeros into a unified realm and started a ruling dynasty that would last for three centuries. 21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Theon Stark, by comparison, had a lifetime of victorious wars against a multitude of enemies on all fronts - East, West, North and South - as his accomplishments. Conventional wars, without the magic wand of Dragons to win his battles for him. I don't understand this logic? Theon inherited the North and all the power and influence that comes with that seat. It was the Starks before him that unified the land, built their power and influence. He merely, like Aegon, did some impressive things with the gifts that he inherited. 21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: To me his accomplishments were far greater. Theon Stark is a great man, but Aegon the Conqueror's accomplishments were (slightly) more impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 What Mance did was incredible he knew when to push when to pull and when to drag every lord or King could learn a thing or two about their obligation to their people from Mance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I don't think Brynden Rivers is remembered fondly in Westeros. From what we know from Dunk and Egg books most people hated him. He was certainly great man, but he wasn't most popular person in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only 89 selfies today Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said: I don't think Brynden Rivers is remembered fondly in Westeros. From what we know from Dunk and Egg books most people hated him. He was certainly great man, but he wasn't most popular person in Westeros. True, but he protected the Targaryen monarchy and if he has been protecting the realm for all this time even when his body is broken - - that makes him a great man, an unsung hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Only 89 selfies today said: True, but he protected the Targaryen monarchy and if he has been protecting the realm for all this time even when his body is broken - - that makes him a great man, an unsung hero. Well, I wouldn't call a hero person who slayed teenage boy on the eyes of his father, then murder him, then murder his another son, and then murder his yet another son, this time under safe conduct. He was certainly skilled and competent man, but he was also ruthless and cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 On February 24, 2018 at 2:23 AM, Bernie Mac said: is a Great man. Like the majority of great men he built on the privileges that he was born with but he turned Westeros into a unified realm and started a ruling dynasty that would last for three centuries. Quote Alexazader of Macedonia could not have conquered Greece if he was merely a peasant,Julius Ceasare could not have conquered Gaul if he was merely a peasant, Genghis Khan could not have carved out a massive land empire if he was a peasant. Point to a successful conqueror in history, you will not see him having come from that humble origins. On February 24, 2018 at 2:23 AM, Bernie Mac said: The Targs before him also had Dragons and none achieved what he did. His descendent also had Dragons, Jaehaerys and Viserys had far, far more in fact, and they did not conquer any new lands with them That always irked me; even when then had a dozen plus dragons they really didn't build upon what Aegon achieved; why not head east? Take over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skahaz mo Kandaq Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: That always irked me; even when then had a dozen plus dragons they really didn't build upon what Aegon achieved; why not head east? Take over the world. For people who had that kind of power, the Targaryens were very moral and considerate. Give that kind of power to the Greyjoys, the Lannisters, the Starks and lots of bad shit will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 If we're talking about great men, I'd say Stannis Baratheon should be included in the list. The man clearly struggles with some form of PTSD from seeing his parents drown before his eyes as a child, and he's got other psychological issues that I can't diagnose but which deeply his social skills to the point where he can barely talk to a woman. And despite these personal flaws, he displays immense resilience and strength. He keeps a fortress from being taken for over a year, he out-maneuvers and utterly defeats the ultimate sailors of Westeros at their own game, he very nearly conquers King's Landing, and even after that colossal defeat, he goes north with less than two thousand men and smashes tens of thousands of wildlings and mammoth-riding giants. And for all that people seem to dislike him, he inspires great loyalty from his soldiers, and for all that he'll break before he bends, he bends a lot to good advice, be it from Davos Seaworth, Justin Massey, or Jon Snow. I'd say he qualifies as a great man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 11 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said: For people who had that kind of power, the Targaryens were very moral and considerate. Give that kind of power to the Greyjoys, the Lannisters, the Starks and lots of bad shit will happen. Meh, I think they were simply lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 23 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: That always irked me; even when then had a dozen plus dragons they really didn't build upon what Aegon achieved; why not head east? Take over the world. They had their hands full keeping hold of Westros. They couldn't even conquer Dorne, and had to deal with the Faith Militant. A generation or so after that, they had their own inter-Targ civil war, which essentially killed off their dragons and thus their ability to conquer any further. Also, I don't know how ripe Essos was for conquest. Dragons are handy, don't get me wrong, but I think if Jaehaerys or Viserys had tried to conquer the Free Cities they would have been biting off more than they could chew. Volantis and Bravos were too powerful by then I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Robert Baratheon Killed Rhaegar in single combat, overthrew the Targaryan dynasty. SEVENTEEN children, homies. Slung the D all over the 7 Kingdoms. Smacked Cersei in da mouf for talking smack to his best friend, plowed hookers in front of her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Vance II Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 6:12 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said: That always irked me; even when then had a dozen plus dragons they really didn't build upon what Aegon achieved; why not head east? Take over the world. Old Valyria had hundreds of dragons and they didn't conquer the world. There is such a thing as having too large an empire. On 2/24/2018 at 4:52 AM, Free Northman Reborn said: Theon Stark, by comparison, had a lifetime of victorious wars against a multitude of enemies on all fronts - East, West, North and South - as his accomplishments. Conventional wars, without the magic wand of Dragons to win his battles for him. Yes. Theon Stark is perhaps my favorite legendary character. I mean, motherfucker not only turned back the Andals, but said nah, that ain't enough, and went to their shores. I would love to have a short story about the Hungry Wolf. Undefeated. I would also submit Robar Royce to the list. Sure, he lost in the end, but he managed to unite the First Men and nearly turned back the Andals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skahaz mo Kandaq Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 11:19 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said: Meh, I think they were simply lazy. They made a choice to commit to Westeros and didn't look east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 On 27.2.2018. at 5:36 AM, LindsayLohan said: SEVENTEEN children, Seventeen? According to Maggy he would have sixteen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Robert and Mance had at least rationale behind their actions. Robert fought for his life and Mance united different tribes to search for a better place. Aegon was a megalomaniac. And a sistersfucker. Khal Drogo is a savage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Tywin is a great man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tai Pan Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 No love for Brynden Rivers? I admire his dedication to the realm. He gave his all in life and now at the very edge of life he continues to serve the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 3:38 AM, Paxter Redwyne said: Well, I wouldn't call a hero person who slayed teenage boy on the eyes of his father, then murder him, then murder his another son, and then murder his yet another son, this time under safe conduct. He was certainly skilled and competent man, but he was also ruthless and cruel. I don't think Bryden is a hero, either, just that he was juggling lots of balls in the air at the same time. Two natural disasters ran rampant throughout his reign (which is what it was, he was king in all but name). The drought caused famine and the Spring Sickness didn't help. Then he also had to contend with a series of civil wars throughout his life. What he did worked, but it's worth mentioning that his methods were not the only means of achieving his goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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