Bernie Mac Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 On 04/03/2018 at 5:07 PM, The Sunland Lord said: Aegon was a megalomaniac. Was he? He refused Argilac's offer of lands and wanted his brother to have them instead and Argilac decided to butcher his envoy in response. For the majority of his reign he allowed Dorne and the Step Stones to remain independent, did not try to acquire new lands from Essos, rather than take an already established castle/city he built one of his own were no other major Lord resided and allowed the Kingdoms to govern themselves pretty much as they did before, even bent over backwards to accommodate the Church. Usually when someone is called a megalomaniac it is for two reasons thinking you are more powerful than you actually are, which does not really apply to Aegon, he knew exactly how powerful he was, he was indeed the most powerful man in Westeros (and his sisters the most powerful women) someone with an obsessive desire for power, which again, does not apply to Aegon. He was quite happy with the 7 kingdoms On 24/02/2018 at 4:38 PM, Paxter Redwyne said: Well, I wouldn't call a hero person who slayed teenage boy on the eyes of his father, then murder him, then murder his another son, and then murder his yet another son, this time under safe conduct. He was certainly skilled and competent man, but he was also ruthless and cruel. You are confusing being a good man with being a great man. Bloodraven was a prominent figure under three monarchs, being said to have ruled for one and being an important and vital military leader for the other two. People described as being the great men of history (really wish Carlyle dubbed it great person) are those people who shaped their times regardless of being good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: You are confusing being a good man with being a great man. Bloodraven was a prominent figure under three monarchs, being said to have ruled for one and being an important and vital military leader for the other two. People described as being the great men of history (really wish Carlyle dubbed it great person) are those people who shaped their times regardless of being good or bad. That was my reply to comment claiming that Bloodraven was hero. I do not confuse these two terms. Person can be both great man and be monster, like Tywin for example (although I know that some people would argue with that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I don't know 'bout you, but I find that Jeor Mormont is a great dude. He abdicated his seat for his son and joined and declining Night's Watch (some of the reasons to do this may have been this very same thing: to help stop the decline). Wether his actions after this were clever or not, like bringing out most of the Watch's force north and getting it killed, the man always stood by the Watch. Aemon Targaryen. Won't waste time explaining why. Both those dudes are keen on the concept of self-sacrifice for others. On other hand, I also find Stannis a great dude for the contrary: he deliberately goes after what he wants, wherever it takes him, whatever it costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said: Aemon Targaryen. Won't waste time explaining why. I know! He's so amazing! He is a figure who stands for so many real people in history: Those best suited to power would be the exact people who would never take it. And those least suited the ones who pursue it. Aemon's story is incredibly well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only 89 selfies today Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 On 2/24/2018 at 11:38 AM, Paxter Redwyne said: Well, I wouldn't call a hero person who slayed teenage boy on the eyes of his father, then murder him, then murder his another son, and then murder his yet another son, this time under safe conduct. He was certainly skilled and competent man, but he was also ruthless and cruel. They live in a cruel world. Bloodraven was surrounded by ruthless enemies. He had to be ruthless. GRRM is just being realistic. A Hand of the King who wanted to protect his king from ruthless enemies have to be hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Stannis is only mentioned 2 times? Some heresy this is! His first achievement I can think of is becoming an atheist in a country full of zealot bigots.(Is able to question belief systems despite peer pressure) Him, a lord, nurturing a wounded goshawk (knows to kill and heal both and not afraid to "get his hands dirty) Holding Storm's End with a small garrison for a year. (Will of Iron also great discipline) Davos' fingers (truly just, also again not afraid to get dirty) Building a fleet and performing as an Admiral despite his childhood trauma of a ship accident(Able to overcome fears and is also resourceful) Fair Isle (Great strategist and tactician, also such a good/fast learner he is able to beat Ironborn who live their lives at sea in their own turf with just a few years of experience as a captain/admiral) Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! (Not loved by the nobility but inspires the common folk) Finally, despite being Iron, bends before he breaks, even Robert the true steel is incapable of the bends Stannis is capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: His first achievement I can think of is becoming an atheist in a country full of zealot bigots.(Is able to question belief systems despite peer pressure) Who is pressuring Stannis? No one cared about his religion until he started burning other faith's religious symbols and executing people who wanted to defend them. 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Him, a lord, nurturing a wounded goshawk (knows to kill and heal both and not afraid to "get his hands dirty) He was not a lord then, he was the son of one. He is hardly going to be the first noble to have a pet. Plus he abandoned the pet when he was teased. 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Holding Storm's End with a small garrison for a year. (Will of Iron also great discipline) Sure, this makes him capable, it does not make him great. 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Davos' fingers (truly just, also again not afraid to get dirty) eh? 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Building a fleet and performing as an Admiral despite his childhood trauma of a ship accident(Able to overcome fears and is also resourceful) What fears? Where is it stated that Stannis had a fear of the water? And how does this make him resourceful? His brother is the King, that is how he got resources to rebuild the Navy. 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Fair Isle (Great strategist and tactician, also such a good/fast learner he is able to beat Ironborn who live their lives at sea in their own turf with just a few years of experience as a captain/admiral) He also achieved this because he had the larger Navy, and his Navy is going to be full of captains who have spent just as much time at Sea as the Ironborn. But I agree, this is the one thing that Stannis has done that can be attributed to greatness. 16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Stannis! Stannis! Stannis! (Not loved by the nobility but inspires the common folk) You are thinking of his brothers, both of whom were loved by the common folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: Who is pressuring Stannis? No one cared about his religion until he started burning other faith's religious symbols and executing people who wanted to defend them. Quote Hell a lot of the nobility we've seen in the series isn't particularity overtly pious. Especially those from the south. Quite honestly, Stannis is likely not the first atheist to sit on the throne. If he even is that. I always got antithesist or theist.But in Stannis's defense he hasn't burned people for merely wanting to defend their idols. You are thinking of his brothers, both of whom were loved by the common folk. Right, Stannis only really inspires Davos. The rest of the people we see following him because they're zealots and/or their interests allighn with military efforts and/or proven possibly capable at solving their problems;they want to save Ned's girl(the clansmen), they want revenge against the lanisters and Freys ect ect. The common people care nothing for the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 On 2/23/2018 at 11:52 PM, Tai Pan said: We read about the accomplishments of great people. Great people of both genders and from every corner of the world. I want to limit this talk for now in order to keep it short to the following men: Aegon Targaryen, the conqueror who united the people of Westeros and built the 7 kingdoms. Robert Baratheon, who usurped the throne from the Targaryens. Khal Drogo, the man who was undefeated in battle and led the largest khalasar in Essos. Mance Rayder, the Night's Watch traitor who deserted over to the wildlings and rose to become their king. Brynden Rivers, the Targaryen bastard who served as Hand, put down a rebellion, rose to lead the Night's Watch, and retired beneath the weirwoods. People in the story have this attraction to people who can fight and lead armies into battle. Theirs is obviously a world where fighting skills and battle leadership are greatly admired because force is how you get the power to make things happen. Force is a means to power, and power is a means to make real your goals. Keeping goals generic, it can mean something like glory, wealth, social change, dominance over others, knowledge. Whatever it is, force is usually the means to get it. For example, craven Samwell Tarly is never going to get the same recognition as the fighter Jon Snow. We may not like it but fighting skills are more important for them. Savvy business people like Walder Frey, Petyr Baelish, and Wyman Manderly do not get the hero status that somebody like Corbray gets even though these men are big successes in their own right. So anyway, I just wanted to set the stage for why I chose the people above and left out some others. I want to narrow the talk down further to Aegon, Drogo, and Mance. It goes without saying the Aegon is a great man who accomplished a lot in his lifetime. But we also should recognize the achievements of Drogo and Mance. While both men will never have the prestige in Westeros that Aegon has, it is due to the fact that they are coming from a different culture. They rose to power but did it under a different setting and fought their way to the top in their own way. Yes, they fought, but not necessarily in a Westeros type battle under the same honor system. Drogo and Mance are savages in the eyes of Westeros but their accomplishments are nothing to dismiss easily. The Dothraki has been said to follow only the strong. Only the strongest become kings (khals) of khalasars. A man who has never cut his braids, who has never lost is indeed special. Likewise, Mance is great also because he rose up where leadership is not passed down through the family but must be earned. The free folk follow the strong. Drogo built the largest khalasar in Essos and Mance united most of the wildlings. Is it justified for someone in Westeros to think these men lesser than they? Is Drogo any more savage than the Boltons, who enjoy flaying people? Mance is an oath breaker and his attack on the wall killed many of his former comrades. Rebellion is a form of oathbreaking and going to war means you kill your fellow countryman. Is there a big difference between Robb and Mance? Do not get me wrong. I am not excusing the Dothraki practice of selling people to slavery. I do not make light of Mance and his desertion. All I am saying is, these men are as great as the heroes of Westeros. I am not saying what they did is morally good. I am saying they accomplished something very difficult just like Aegon, Robert, and Bloodraven. A savage man is no less a man, no less intelligent, no less capable. You were expecting a question. Maybe a poll. I'm just making an observation because we were introduced to Westeros first and we were exposed to many POVs from the Westerosi perspective. We all know now that can sway our initial opinions. I think this question has a lot to do with the persective of the smallfolk and how the history is written down by the maesters. For example Sansa is quite fond of the tales of Florian the Fool, if such a person even existed, he surely was a battle comander of skilled at arms, however he is remember as a great hero for his deeds by singers and smallfolk. Stannis and Randyll Tarly are thought to be two of the best living military minds in Westeros, Tarly is half credited with deafing Robert at Ashford, and Stannis for burning the Iron fleet, to great battles, However they aren't particularly loved by the smallfolk and the Maesters will probably never study and write any books dedicated to their deeds. Hence their memories will die out. When it comes to Mance and Drogo regardless of what they may have accomplished in Westeros they would probably always be viewed has invading savages and never gain the love of bannermen, smallfolk, the faith, the Citadel. I see them being viewed as someone like Haren the Black, Not well loved even tho they accomplished a lot in their life time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 29.03.2018 at 3:08 PM, Only 89 selfies today said: They live in a cruel world. Bloodraven was surrounded by ruthless enemies. He had to be ruthless. GRRM is just being realistic. A Hand of the King who wanted to protect his king from ruthless enemies have to be hard. Lol, reply just in time. Violence is not answer for everything and by overusing it, you just create more problem than you solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only 89 selfies today Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 On 3/31/2018 at 11:44 AM, Paxter Redwyne said: Lol, reply just in time. Violence is not answer for everything and by overusing it, you just create more problem than you solve. It's not the answer to everything but it should be an option. Many times, it is the only way. To use an example. There is no other way to rescue the slaves from their masters in slaver's bay except through the use of force. Asking the slavers to release their slaves is not going to do the trick. In the case of Bloodraven, yeah, maybe there was another way to rid themselves of the Blackfyres. He took the choice that he felt would guarantee the safety of the Targaryen Dynasty and eliminate the immediate threat of those who would take the throne from them. He did the right thing by killing Gormon Peake for sure. He showed mercy to Butterwell but still punished the man by taking 90% of his assets for his part in hosting the traitor's tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 What makes a man great? Dying for your country and honor like Qhorin Halfhand, forever remembered like Agent J. Probably not. Or is it just being a nice person like the guy at the inn who adopted a child before trying to rob Brienne and Jaime, I also doubt it. Brynden Rivers was certainly a great man, despite being a kinslayer and somewhat of a tyrant, he kept Westeros stable. Even now with the threat of the wights, Brynden manages to send constant nightmares to a ten year old, all in the preservation of peace. Yet a kinslayer is cursed in the eyes of gods and men so how great can he be? Same goes for all our heros, the Barathron boys are crazy, Aegon was power hungry, Eddard was power shy, and Drogo was a mass slaver. I like Ramsay. Born from an atrocity he was raised a smallfolk, and not the comfy city life like Davos or Dunk, but the gritty north of the first men. Thanks to his mother he was declared a bastard, a few quick moves by Ramsay, he's declared the only heir. After winding up in prison under an alias, he puppeteers his way into freedom, with this freedom he buys Winterfell, defeating the Stark army and making its Stark and Greyjoy princes disappear in the process. Ramsay destroyed Robb's kingdom, perhaps forcing his father into regicide and warden of the north. The Lord of Winterfell, married to Arya, or whatever skin Jeyne is wearing, he's done pretty well for himself all without selling short his lineage like Euron the slaver or Eddard the non sacrificer. It'd be wrong to call Ramsay a great man, but it'd be wrong to call his accomplishments for himself and house Bolton anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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