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SerClout

Why did Aerys send Bittersteel to the wall?

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He had him right there, why did he spare his life? Sure, killing him might not have prevented the Ninepenny war but seriously come on? He was like a thrice timed traitor? At least throw him in the dungeons if it's kinslaying he was worried about, instead of sending him half across the realm waiting for the right opportunity to escape, which he eventually did.

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Because he was lazy, I think. 

Wouldn't that be a twice timed traitor, since it seems Daemon "John the Fiddler" Blackfyre II attempted the Second Blackfyre Rebellion without Bittersteel's backing?

Edited by Angel Eyes
Whoops, missed Bittersteel.

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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

It wasn't Aerys I who sent Bloodraven to the Wall, it was Aegon V.

Read the topic again please ^_^

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Possibly because he didn't want to execute his uncle and become a kinslayer. That kind of thing is felt rather keenly in Westeros.

And with Haegon already dead (under as of yet completely unclear circumstances) he might have decided to send a message of mercy to both Bittersteel, the surviving Blackfyres, and their followers.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Possibly because he didn't want to execute his uncle and become a kinslayer. That kind of thing is felt rather keenly in Westeros.

And with Haegon already dead (under as of yet completely unclear circumstances) he might have decided to send a message of mercy to both Bittersteel, the surviving Blackfyres, and their followers.

He could've kept him hostage as Bloodraven did with Daemon II who later died. Could there be other reasons than convenience of the story leading to future blackfyre rebellions? Did Aerys for some reason want him to escape?

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21 minutes ago, SerClout said:

He could've kept him hostage as Bloodraven did with Daemon II who later died. Could there be other reasons than convenience of the story leading to future blackfyre rebellions? Did Aerys for some reason want him to escape?

Bittersteel wasn't much worth as a hostage, presumably. He wasn't all that young at that point, and he was the main cause for the continuous trouble with the Blackfyres. If he had ended up at the Wall there would have likely been neither a Fourth nor a Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion.

And one really has to say that Bittersteel was a piece of shit. If you agree to take the black, you take it. You don't run away like a coward. It is no surprise that Daemon III had as little support from the Westerosi as he had, considering that Bittersteel was with him at that point.

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8 hours ago, SerClout said:

He could've kept him hostage as Bloodraven did with Daemon II who later died. Could there be other reasons than convenience of the story leading to future blackfyre rebellions? Did Aerys for some reason want him to escape?

I think that there was someone in Targaryens court, who worked for Blackfyres, secretly supported them, or maybe was just feeling sorry for them, and thus convinced Aerys not to keep Bittersteel in the dungeon. Maybe it was Shiera Seastar.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bittersteel wasn't much worth as a hostage, presumably. He wasn't all that young at that point, and he was the main cause for the continuous trouble with the Blackfyres. If he had ended up at the Wall there would have likely been neither a Fourth nor a Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion.

And one really has to say that Bittersteel was a piece of shit. If you agree to take the black, you take it. You don't run away like a coward. It is no surprise that Daemon III had as little support from the Westerosi as he had, considering that Bittersteel was with him at that point.

I don't think Bittersteel being with Daemon III after escaping from joining the NW had anything to do with the lack of support the Blackfyres got once they landed in the 7K. The houses that had been supporting them were probably too weak to fight another war or figured it wasn't worth it.

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10 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I don't think Bittersteel being with Daemon III after escaping from joining the NW had anything to do with the lack of support the Blackfyres got once they landed in the 7K. The houses that had been supporting them were probably too weak to fight another war or figured it wasn't worth it.

Any decent and honorable man would have had second thoughts when considering whether to support a turncloak and traitor. Bittersteel had accepted King Aerys I's pardon. If he had not, he would have been executed.

This is an important thing for most Westerosi noblemen. It is one thing to have a difference of opinion about who should be king, and quite another to take the black and then run away.

But I certainly agree that Bittersteel being an bitter old man in 236 AC, carrying ragged banners and propping up a pretender who had not even been born in Westeros would have had a great impact on the popularity of the Blackfyre cause, too. That is pretty much obvious.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Any decent and honorable man would have had second thoughts when considering whether to support a turncloak and traitor. Bittersteel had accepted King Aerys I's pardon. If he had not, he would have been executed.

This is an important thing for most Westerosi noblemen. It is one thing to have a difference of opinion about who should be king, and quite another to take the black and then run away.

But I certainly agree that Bittersteel being an bitter old man in 236 AC, carrying ragged banners and propping up a pretender who had not even been born in Westeros would have had a great impact on the popularity of the Blackfyre cause, too. That is pretty much obvious.

The Blackfyre supporters werre traitors and turncloaks themselves . Are they decent and honorable men to begin with? You really think a good chunk of them stopped supporting Bittersteel/Blackfyres because Bittersteel didn't follow through with joining the NW?  Most likely  the houses that supported the 2nd and 3rd Blackfyre rebellion, lost their lives or a good chunk of their lands and income and were in no shape to support another Blackfyre rebellion. Especially one that they didn't think would succeed to begin with. 

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18 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

The Blackfyre supporters werre traitors and turncloaks themselves . Are they decent and honorable men to begin with? You really think a good chunk of them stopped supporting Bittersteel/Blackfyres because Bittersteel didn't follow through with joining the NW?  Most likely  the houses that supported the 2nd and 3rd Blackfyre rebellion, lost their lives or a good chunk of their lands and income and were in no shape to support another Blackfyre rebellion. Especially one that they didn't think would succeed to begin with. 

Whoever joined Daemon III in Westeros wouldn't have been a traitor up to that point. If he was, he would have been with Bittersteel and the Golden Company by that time. I mean, do you think those die-hard Blackfyre loyalists who really stuck with their doomed pretenders until the end where pardoned after the First, Second, and Third Rebellion?

A few may have gotten pardons, but the bulk of them would have been exiled and/or attainted, and the worst (repeating) traitors would have ended like Gormon Peake.

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He probably thought that executing him after Haegon was dishonorably killed(most likely by Aerion or Bloodraven known for loving his nephews) would tarnish his reputation even further. Also Aerys isn't most perspicacious king.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And one really has to say that Bittersteel was a piece of shit. If you agree to take the black, you take it. You don't run away like a coward. It is no surprise that Daemon III had as little support from the Westerosi as he had, considering that Bittersteel was with him at that point.

Well, he hadn't took oaths yet, so I dont think it is very big problem. Bloodraven too did many dishonorable things like killing his brother and at least three of his nephews. Bittersteel was good commander but I think he lacked diplomatic abilities and this may also be reason why Blackfyres had so little support. They could try to use fact that Aegon V was "half a peasant" and made laws limiting nobility power over smallfolk to gain some allies in Westeros. Also sacrificing Daemon II, even if he was dumb, wasn't the best decision and only cost them support.

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35 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

He probably thought that executing him after Haegon was dishonorably killed(most likely by Aerion or Bloodraven known for loving his nephews) would tarnish his reputation even further. Also Aerys isn't most perspicacious king.

This is actually not 'most likely'. We have no idea why Haegon Blackfyre was killed or by whom. We don't even know all the players in town, either. The idea that only the guys mentioned in that sketchiest of outlines were important players during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion would be stupid.

Haegon Blackfyre could be killed by anyone - and it is not unlikely he might be killed by a person we have not even met at this point. Somebody that's going to be introduced in some future Dunk & Egg story.

Or, hell, it could be one of the usual scoundrels/villains in making - Steffon Fossoway, Bennis of the Brown Shield, etc.

35 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Well, he hadn't took oaths yet, so I dont think it is very big problem.

He had taken the black when he accepted King Aerys' pardon. Or do you think Ned had the right to cancel his decision to go to the Wall on his way there, fleeing to Essos or taking possession of Winterfell on the way to the Wall (assuming Joff hadn't killed him, of course)?

I don't think so.

Traitors and criminals take the black when they accept that they aren't executed (or suffer whatever other punishment they would have to suffer had they not declared to take the black).

35 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Bloodraven too did many dishonorable things like killing his brother and at least three of his nephews.

Bloodraven killed a half-brother and two nephews who were unjustly rebelling against a crowned and anointed king, their half-brother and half-uncle. And even Aenys Blackfyre was a traitor, claiming a throne and a crown he had no right to since the day his father rose in rebellion against Daeron II.

Still, one can certainly make a case that luring Aenys to KL wasn't exactly the nice way. But slaying enemies in battle is perfectly fine.

35 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Bittersteel was good commander but I think he lacked diplomatic abilities and this may also be reason why Blackfyres had so little support. They could try to use fact that Aegon V was "half a peasant" and made laws limiting nobility power over smallfolk to gain some allies in Westeros. Also sacrificing Daemon II, even if he was dumb, wasn't the best decision and only cost them support.

Bittersteel likely had considerable support until the Third Rebellion, but afterwards his star obviously sank rather quickly.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is actually not 'most likely'. We have no idea why Haegon Blackfyre was killed or by whom. We don't even know all the players in town, either. The idea that only the guys mentioned in that sketchiest of outlines were important players during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion would be stupid.

Haegon Blackfyre could be killed by anyone - and it is not unlikely he might be killed by a person we have not even met at this point. Somebody that's going to be introduced in some future Dunk & Egg story.

Or, hell, it could be one of the usual scoundrels/villains in making - Steffon Fossoway, Bennis of the Brown Shield, etc.

Maybe, this is mostly my opinion. There is statement in World of Ice and Fire about Aerion actions but we don't know yet what exactly.

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He had taken the black when he accepted King Aerys' pardon. Or do you think Ned had the right to cancel his decision to go to the Wall on his way there, fleeing to Essos or taking possession of Winterfell on the way to the Wall (assuming Joff hadn't killed him, of course)?

I don't think so.

Traitors and criminals take the black when they accept that they aren't executed (or suffer whatever other punishment they would have to suffer had they not declared to take the black).

I can't find anywhere that Aegor accepted Aerys' pardon. World of Ice and Fire says that he was tried, found guilty and sent to wall as punishment. If I forgot about something please let me know.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven killed a half-brother and two nephews who were unjustly rebelling against a crowned and anointed king, their half-brother and half-uncle. And even Aenys Blackfyre was a traitor, claiming a throne and a crown he had no right to since the day his father rose in rebellion against Daeron II.

Still, one can certainly make a case that luring Aenys to KL wasn't exactly the nice way. But slaying enemies in battle is perfectly fine.

Well, I don't blame Bloodraven for killing Daemon in battle, but it still made him kinslayer . In my opinion it would be better if Bloodraven captured Daemon or at least his son Aemon after killing his father, but of course there is no reason to show mercy to traitors in battle.

I am not sure that just putting forth your claim to Great Council is treason. I think he would classify only as only son of traitor.

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bittersteel likely had considerable support until the Third Rebellion, but afterwards his star obviously sank rather quickly.

Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was complete joke, but we don't have any information yet if Bittersteel leadership was main reason why Daemon III had so little support.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Whoever joined Daemon III in Westeros wouldn't have been a traitor up to that point. If he was, he would have been with Bittersteel and the Golden Company by that time. I mean, do you think those die-hard Blackfyre loyalists who really stuck with their doomed pretenders until the end where pardoned after the First, Second, and Third Rebellion?

A few may have gotten pardons, but the bulk of them would have been exiled and/or attainted, and the worst (repeating) traitors would have ended like Gormon Peake.

You really think in every Blackfyre Rebellion only new houses/Lords joined the Blackfyres? We know the Blackfyre loyalist who didn't flee with Bittersteel from the 1st Rebellion were pardon with lands taken away from them. I'd bet a lot of those same house fought for the Blackfyres in the 3rd Rebellion too. If they did then most likely after the 3rd Rebellion most of those Lords would've been exiled and/or attained and some were probably killed like Peake.  Again that would explain why the Blackfyres got so little support in the 4th Rebellion not because of Bittersteel not following through with joining the NW.

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1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Maybe, this is mostly my opinion. There is statement in World of Ice and Fire about Aerion actions but we don't know yet what exactly.

Sure, but those are not connected to the murder of Haegon. George could have made it more clear if he wanted to imply something like that. Aerion's actions seem to refer to the war effort, not stuff that was done after the war was over.

And we should also keep in mind that both Aerion and Bloodraven urged King Aerys to execute Bittersteel - but if we assume Aerion had been caught red-handed murdering Haegon Blackfyre I honestly doubt he would have been in a position to advise the king afterwards. He would have been in a cell, or perhaps even a dead man, depending on the circumstances of Haegon's murder and the way it made King Aerys and the Iron Throne look.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I can't find anywhere that Aegor accepted Aerys' pardon. World of Ice and Fire says that he was tried, found guilty and sent to wall as punishment. If I forgot about something please let me know.

Every person taking the black goes there of his own free will. You cannot be forced to serve in the NW. You have to swear a vow. If you are a criminal - like Bittersteel, Ned Stark, the Dornish kings, Perkin the Flea, Dareon, Chett, etc. - then you get a choice. Take the punishment that is due to your crime, or declare that you want to take the black. Then your judge - be he king or lord - can decide to honor your wishes and allow you do that. And you basically are a man of the Night's Watch from that moment on, which makes Bittersteel very much a deserter and turncloak, and a coward.

Now, your judge - be he king or lord - could also offer you the choice to take the black - like Joff was supposed to offer Ned, and Tywin claimed he wanted to offer Tyrion - but it is then still your responsibility to accept it. If you don't accept it you don't go to the Wall. If Bittersteel had told King Aerys I that he had no intention of taking the black, then he wouldn't have been shipped to the Wall but would have instead been imprisoned or executed.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure that just putting forth your claim to Great Council is treason. I think he would classify only as only son of traitor.

We can be reasonably certain that Daeron II, Aerys I, and King Maekar all attainted the Blackfyre bloodline, cutting them out of the succession. They were exiles and traitors. Pretending to grant Aenys safe passage was nasty business, but the idea that the man had any right to present his claim is pretty far-fetched.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was complete joke, but we don't have any information yet if Bittersteel leadership was main reason why Daemon III had so little support.

He would have been a pretty good leader, just not exactly a guy with a great reputation. Even if he hadn't fled from the NW like a coward, he certainly was a huge living failure. The man never accomplished anything he set out to do.

58 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

You really think in every Blackfyre Rebellion only new houses/Lords joined the Blackfyres?

We don't know, but we do know that not all the lords and knights at Whitewalls had fought with Daemon on the Redgrass Field. Many of them did, but not all of them. There were new men there.

In general I'd assume Daemon Blackfyre had the most support, perhaps even some underhanded support from some pretty big houses. But from there it trickled down until only morons and exiles supported the Blackfyre cause.

Perhaps the Third Rebellion is going to be a bigger thing. But if it is - it doesn't have to be because many people in Westeros declare for Haegon. The Golden Company is a large sellsword army - if they win some decisive victories early on during the war the opportunists might flock to the Black Dragon without being really into the whole thing - it could be a matter of survival and calculation like it is with the Stormlords and the Golden Company right now in the books.

Those people are then not likely going to be considered vile traitors once everything is over. Nor are they likely to flock to Daemon III's banner decades later.

58 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

We know the Blackfyre loyalist who didn't flee with Bittersteel from the 1st Rebellion were pardon with lands taken away from them. I'd bet a lot of those same house fought for the Blackfyres in the 3rd Rebellion too.

Many of those lords already were with Daemon II at Whitewalls. I'm inclined to believe that this crushing defeat caused more than a few of them to reconsider their allegiances. If they got through the First and Second Rebellion relatively unscathed then they might not be that lucky during the third time.

We'll have to wait and see whether the Peakes were stupid enough to stand with Haegon and Bittersteel during the Third Rebellion. Gormy is gone, and we have no clue how stupid his sons, brothers, or cousins are. The Butterwells and Heddles were also finished during the Second Rebellion.

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39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

We don't know, but we do know that not all the lords and knights at Whitewalls had fought with Daemon on the Redgrass Field. Many of them did, but not all of them. There were new men there.

In general I'd assume Daemon Blackfyre had the most support, perhaps even some underhanded support from some pretty big houses. But from there it trickled down until only morons and exiles supported the Blackfyre cause.

Perhaps the Third Rebellion is going to be a bigger thing. But if it is - it doesn't have to be because many people in Westeros declare for Haegon. The Golden Company is a large sellsword army - if they win some decisive victories early on during the war the opportunists might flock to the Black Dragon without being really into the whole thing - it could be a matter of survival and calculation like it is with the Stormlords and the Golden Company right now in the books.

Those people are then not likely going to be considered vile traitors once everything is over. Nor are they likely to flock to Daemon III's banner decades later.

Many of those lords already were with Daemon II at Whitewalls. I'm inclined to believe that this crushing defeat caused more than a few of them to reconsider their allegiances. If they got through the First and Second Rebellion relatively unscathed then they might not be that lucky during the third time.

We'll have to wait and see whether the Peakes were stupid enough to stand with Haegon and Bittersteel during the Third Rebellion. Gormy is gone, and we have no clue how stupid his sons, brothers, or cousins are. The Butterwells and Heddles were also finished during the Second Rebellion.

Sure some new Lords and knights joined the Blackfyres in the 2nd and 3rd Rebellions and maybe the 4th.  I agree Daemon Blackfyre had the most support probably followed by Haegon in the 3rd rebellion. I always think of the 2nd rebellion more of a pre-rebellion, with the 4th being mostly just the GC and a few houses.  House Yronwood fought for the Blackfyres in three rebellions, i'm guessing the 1st, 3rd and 4th. It'd be interesting to see what kind of punishment they received after each failed rebellion. Hopefully we get more info on the Blackfyre rebellions in Fire and Blood.

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8 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Sure some new Lords and knights joined the Blackfyres in the 2nd and 3rd Rebellions and maybe the 4th.  I agree Daemon Blackfyre had the most support probably followed by Haegon in the 3rd rebellion. I always think of the 2nd rebellion more of a pre-rebellion, with the 4th being mostly just the GC and a few houses.  House Yronwood fought for the Blackfyres in three rebellions, i'm guessing the 1st, 3rd and 4th. It'd be interesting to see what kind of punishment they received after each failed rebellion. Hopefully we get more info on the Blackfyre rebellions in Fire and Blood.

I'd be very surprised if the Blood Royal of Yronwood fought with Daemon III. Some Yronwoods apparently did, but I doubt the entire house was committed to that lost cause. 

We know the Yronwoods rode with Bittersteel, so during the First Rebellion there must have been either some fighting in Dorne involving Yronwoods and Bittersteel, or - more likely, I think - the Yronwoods and Bittersteel attacked some of Daeron II's allies in the Stormlands early on during the war (the Dondarrions and Penroses).

With Dorne retaining as many privileges as it did, it may have fallen to the Prince of Dorne to punish the Yronwoods for their treason. And they may have been lenient the first time.

How it went during the Third Rebellion remains to be seen.

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