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Jaime and Aegon


AlaskanSandman

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I don't recall where Jaime gave Aegon much thought. His arc is about being sworn to Catelyn for Sansa and Arya. 

ASOS Jaime III

A gift you want desperately, wench, and can never have. "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me."

 

 

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I think that Jaime may actually know, that both of Rhaegar's kids were really killed. When Rhaegar was leaving, he told Jaime to protect them. But even before that Jaime was frequently guarding Rhaella's room, Aerys' room, probably Elia's and her kids chamber's too. Could be that Jaime were often interacting with Elia and her children. Could be that little Aegon had some distinctive features, like an unusually shaped birth mark, or something like that. And Jaime knows about it, so he can tell whether fAegon is that baby, or he isn't.

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After leaving Harrenhal but before returning to rescue Brienne he had a dream. We know this was inspired by Bloodraven since Jaime rested his head on a weirwood stump.

He is forced down into a cave by hooded figures brandishing spears. (Is this a foreshadowing of Jaime's coming encounter with Catelyn?) He is shoved into a pit with Brienne, who fears a bear. (This seems to be an obvious foreshadowing of Jaime's rescuing the maiden not so fair later in the chapter.)

Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey then appear. This predates the Red Wedding so Tywin and Joffrey are still alive at this point, but he and Joffrey will soon die, suffering deaths for which Jaime must later feel some blame. (So this might foreshadow Cersei's death as well. He released Tyrion, who killed Tywin, and he was the Lord Commander of Joffrey's Kingsguard but unable to protect him. And of course Jaime is the leading candidate to be Cersei's valonqar.) 

The trio departs but not before Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Keep in mind that the sword Tywin actually gives to Jaime is one of two from Ice and Jaime gives his sword, in turn, to Brienne. In the dream Brienne gets a sword like Jaime's and they both burn--silvery blue, like ice, real ice, not the sword of course, but the allusion is there.

Then Bloodraven, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen Kingsguard brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn King's Landing. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. Bloodraven seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

Jaime I, Feast

Jaime identifies with the Warrior...

Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me.

Jaime II, Feast

And the Warrior protects children...

The Warrior stands before the foe,

protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow,

he guards the little children.

Samwell II, Storm

Jaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children...

"... So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."

"There could be."

"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone."

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

Jaime I, Dance

Jaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker...

"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him Kingmaker."

Jaime II, Feast

But perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon...

"That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally, with all the strength that still remained me."

Daenerys II, Dance

And here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert...

"Robert was no true king."

Jaime IV, Feast

On the road with Illyrio, Tyrion describes a dream...

  Quote

"I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

Tyrion II, Dance

If Jaime supports Aegon, believing him to be Rhaegar's son, against Daenerys, Tyrion's dream could very well foreshadow the Kingslayer's fate, and we could see a reckoning between Barristan and the kingslayer.

But I tend to think that Aegon will allow Jaime to take the black after Jaime helps him to take the throne, and ironically, Jaime will end up serving the presumed son of Eddard Stark and the actual son of Rhaegar Targaryen. 

Finally, note that Jaime observes that Brienne could be a "beauty" in a certain light. Perhaps more beautiful than Cersei? I think so

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I think feel conflicted if he fights Aegon, but that is if he accepts the story. He may have some doubts about the narrative. He likely won't switch sides either way given Aegon isn't like to forgive him for killing Aerys.

However, I do think there is a hint that the reveal of R+L=J will leave him conflicted after Jon's parentage is confirmed. 

Quote

A snowflake landed on the letter [from Cersei]. As it melted, the ink began to blur. 

-AFFC Jaime VII

The old guilt he felt toward's Rhaegar's children will appear again. He will ultimately break from Cersei though I don't think we will find him serving Jon anytime soon. 

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Jaime's guilt tends to be expressed in unconscious ways. We see this with Rhaella, Tysha, Bran, and as seen here, Rhaenys and Aegon: 

Quote
 
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."
 
"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ."

~A Storm of Swords

Quote

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks

~A Dance with Dragons

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@AlaskanSandman good question dude!

When Jamie hears the news, something tells me he will want to find out the truth for himself. Rhaegar was such a big part of his life that I could see Jamie heading off on some quest to Storm's End so he can question this undead Dragon, assuming he manages to escape Lady Stoneheart.

I guess this would be dependant on how Jaime views Cersei come the halfway point of TWOW.

@Lost Melnibonean 

I also like your theory that BR is prepping Jaime to eventually help Jon. What do you think might convince him to head North? More Bloodraven messages? Perhaps Lady Stoneheart?

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaime's guilt tends to be expressed in unconscious ways. We see this with Rhaella, Tysha, Bran, and as seen here, Rhaenys and Aegon: 

~A Storm of Swords

~A Dance with Dragons

That is true. It seems that Rhaegar's children appear in his thoughts in the most unexpected moments.

Another instance is in FFC when he makes a rather bizarre wish:

Quote

"Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …" Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? "… if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

Not only he wants Sansa to be safe from Cersei, but he specifically fears that due to her status as a Stark, her children will have the same fate as Aegon.

Jaime definitely has a Kingmaker quality. The first time when he was given the chance he refused and he chose not to support Aegon's claim, due to the fact that his disgust for Aerys overtook his admiration for Rhaegar.

 

Quote

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. 

In the end of DWD he is frustrated with Cersei and it is hinted that he will choose his own path.

Supporting a child of Rhaegar is rather obvious. Besides Rhaegar had confided to Jaime that he had certain plans

Quote

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

Jaime will likely instigate those changes by aiding a Targaryen to claim the throne, but which one?

I can see Jaime choosing between Dany and Jon, but I think that it will be unlikely that he will interact with Aegon. He will probably consider him fake although the mere idea that a child of Rhaegar has survived, will definitely shock him.

 

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I think Jaime will be suspicious of Aegon since he was in the Red Keep when the baby was killed and saw the body. Even though the child's face was destroyed Jaime would have been very familiar with the young prince. Babies may all look very similar but proportions, skin tone, hair, size and muscle definition will be different, however slight. Perhaps Jaime will help give us the truth about (f)Aegon after he (hopefully) escapes Lady Stoneheart

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2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I also like your theory that BR is prepping Jaime to eventually help Jon. What do you think might convince him to head North? More Bloodraven messages? Perhaps Lady Stoneheart?

Jaime will take over leadership of the BwB and they'll head north. :wideeyed:

 

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime will take over leadership of the BwB and they'll head north. :wideeyed:

 

So the boy who earned his spurs fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood will grow up to become leader of a similar gang? I like it! ^_^

Come to think of it, should Jaime encounter Ned Dayne, how do you think he would react? After all, it was nuncle Arthur who dubbed Jaime a knight in the first place.

I've seen it postulated several times that Jaime would have some kind of emotional reaction to Young Aegon - due to guilt over Rhaegar/Aerys - perhaps an encounter with the Lord of Starfall would make Jaime further question his place in the world and consider joininh the BwB?

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6 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

So the boy who earned his spurs fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood will grow up to become leader of a similar gang? I like it! ^_^

Yeah, something along those lines. Jaime dreamed of being Arthur Dayne but became the kingslayer instead. Now that Brienne has inspired him, he will lead a band of outlaws and "become" Arthur Dayne. :)

 And he is right, it was the white cloak that soiled him, not the other way around. 

6 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Come to think of it, should Jaime encounter Ned Dayne, how do you think he would react? After all, it was nuncle Arthur who dubbed Jaime a knight in the first place.

Yes, interesting, isn't it? Jaime idolises Arthur Dayne, wanted to be like him, looked up to him more than to anyone else. In fact, he doesn't look up to anyone else at all. I want to see what happens when he meets Ned Dayne. For instance, meeting Ned might trigger a lot of memories, which should be very interesting. I have always thought it a bit odd that Jaime doesn't think at all about what happened to the Sword of the Morning at the end of the Rebellion. The guy was Jaime's hero, he wasn't at the Trident w/ Rhaegar, he died. And Jaime  never ever thinks about it at all. So maybe meeting Ned will have a big impact on Jaime, and will remind him further of what type of man he wants to be. 

6 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I've seen it postulated several times that Jaime would have some kind of emotional reaction to Young Aegon - due to guilt over Rhaegar/Aerys - perhaps an encounter with the Lord of Starfall would make Jaime further question his place in the world and consider joininh the BwB?

Yeah, I agree. 

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8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

After leaving Harrenhal but before returning to rescue Brienne he had a dream. We know this was inspired by Bloodraven since Jaime rested his head on a weirwood stump.

He is forced down into a cave by hooded figures brandishing spears. (Is this a foreshadowing of Jaime's coming encounter with Catelyn?) He is shoved into a pit with Brienne, who fears a bear. (This seems to be an obvious foreshadowing of Jaime's rescuing the maiden not so fair later in the chapter.)

Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey then appear. This predates the Red Wedding so Tywin and Joffrey are still alive at this point, but he and Joffrey will soon die, suffering deaths for which Jaime must later feel some blame. (So this might foreshadow Cersei's death as well. He released Tyrion, who killed Tywin, and he was the Lord Commander of Joffrey's Kingsguard but unable to protect him. And of course Jaime is the leading candidate to be Cersei's valonqar.) 

The trio departs but not before Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Keep in mind that the sword Tywin actually gives to Jaime is one of two from Ice and Jaime gives his sword, in turn, to Brienne. In the dream Brienne gets a sword like Jaime's and they both burn--silvery blue, like ice, real ice, not the sword of course, but the allusion is there.

Then Bloodraven, who sided with the red dragon against the brother he loved, sent Jaime's fallen Kingsguard brothers to hammer home Jaime's crime when he betrayed Aerys, notwithstanding Jaime's defense that Aerys planned to burn King's Landing. Rhaegar reminded him that he left his wife and children in Jaime's hands. Bloodraven seems to be preparing Jaime to raise up Jon, Rhaegar's heir, as king.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

Jaime I, Feast

Jaime identifies with the Warrior...

Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me.

Jaime II, Feast

And the Warrior protects children...

The Warrior stands before the foe,

protecting us where e'er we go.

With sword and shield and spear and bow,

he guards the little children.

Samwell II, Storm

Jaime wants to make good on his failed duty to protect Rhaegar's children...

"... So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it."

"There could be."

"How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says."

"My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."

"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone."

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

Jaime I, Dance

Jaime doesn't believe that Rhaegar has any living children. But the George strongly hinted that Jamie will be a kingmaker...

"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him Kingmaker."

Jaime II, Feast

But perhaps Jaime will believe Aegon's claim? Here is a telling quote from Barristan on his path to redemption after taking Robert's pardon...

"That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally, with all the strength that still remained me."

Daenerys II, Dance

And here's Jaime telling Lancel what he thought of Robert...

"Robert was no true king."

Jaime IV, Feast

On the road with Illyrio, Tyrion describes a dream...

  Quote

"I dreamed about the queen," he said. "I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons."

Tyrion II, Dance

If Jaime supports Aegon, believing him to be Rhaegar's son, against Daenerys, Tyrion's dream could very well foreshadow the Kingslayer's fate, and we could see a reckoning between Barristan and the kingslayer.

But I tend to think that Aegon will allow Jaime to take the black after Jaime helps him to take the throne, and ironically, Jaime will end up serving the presumed son of Eddard Stark and the actual son of Rhaegar Targaryen. 

Finally, note that Jaime observes that Brienne could be a "beauty" in a certain light. Perhaps more beautiful than Cersei? I think so

Great post, LM!

Jaime may well be skeptical about Aegon. If he believes the story, however, he will be conflicted because he still feels guilty about not protecting Rhaegar's children, yet Tommen is his own child, and Jaime is very unlikely to fight against his child (regardless of how he feels about Cersei). Of course, he couldn't exactly expect a warm welcome in the camp of Aerys's grandchild either, so chances that Jaime will actually join Aegon (and against Tommen) are slim. 

If Jaime ends up in the North, however, supporting Jon will not require him to move against Tommen as Jon is not claiming the IT. Of course, Jon has good reason to hate the Lannisters and to be suspicious of Jaime, but, I think, ultimately, he is ready to ally with anyone who is willing to protect the realm. Jaime may end up helping and perhaps protecting Rhaegar's son without knowing about it. (He may still realize it at a later point, of course.) I think it would be interesting to read a conversation between them about Rhaegar - Jaime could share some of his memories about Rhaegar, tell Jon how he had admired the Prince of Dragonstone, which could help Jon come to terms with the knowledge that Rhaegar was his biological father when he finds it out. 

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38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, something along those lines. Jaime dreamed of being Arthur Dayne but became the kingslayer instead. Now that Brienne has inspired him, he will lead a band of outlaws and "become" Arthur Dayne. :)

 And he is right, it was the white cloak that soiled him, not the other way around. 

Totally agree. Before his white cloak, he was pretty much just a kid who was good at fighting. Kind of like how Barry describes himself in ADwD.

 

46 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, interesting, isn't it? Jaime idolises Arthur Dayne, wanted to be like him, looked up to him more than to anyone else. In fact, he doesn't look up to anyone else at all. I want to see what happens when he meets Ned Dayne. For instance, meeting Ned might trigger a lot of memories, which should be very interesting. I have always thought it a bit odd that Jaime doesn't think at all about what happened to the Sword of the Morning at the end of the Rebellion. The guy was Jaime's hero, he wasn't at the Trident w/ Rhaegar, he died. And Jaime  never ever thinks about it at all. So maybe meeting Ned will have a big impact on Jaime, and will remind him further of what type of man he wants to be. 

Now that you mention it, Jaime not thinking about the ToJ is very puzzling indeed. Even when he reads the White Book, we get nothing about Whent, Hightower or Dayne's deaths in Dorne. Weird.

It's a shame we didn't get a Jaime POV for his fight/interactions with Ned Stark - he must have been thinking about Arthur a lot during these scenes.

 

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16 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Totally agree. Before his white cloak, he was pretty much just a kid who was good at fighting. Kind of like how Barry describes himself in ADwD.

Exactly. And when he first joins the KG his head is full of dreams and idealism. But the whole thing sours rather quickly... 

16 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Now that you mention it, Jaime not thinking about the ToJ is very puzzling indeed. Even when he reads the White Book, we get nothing about Whent, Hightower or Dayne's deaths in Dorne. Weird.

Indeed. I suppose it's b/c Martin doesn't want to give away some things too soon. 

16 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

It's a shame we didn't get a Jaime POV for his fight/interactions with Ned Stark - he must have been thinking about Arthur a lot during these scenes.

I agree. It would have been great to know what Jaime was thinking about in those scenes. Then again, I wish we'd had Jamie's PoV from the start. The more Jaime we get, the better! :commie:

:P

 

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The Kingslayer cannot become Goldenhand the Just if Rhaegar's son doesn't forgive him. If Aegon does that, Jaime will throw himself in front of the Iron Throne, kiss the royal feet, and weep with joy. 

It is known.

And it is not that Aegon owes anything to his mad grandfather. He is Rhaegar's son, not Aerys II's. And his father Rhaegar intended to depose/topple Aerys II. Aerys II mistreated Aegon's mother, Princess Elia, and insulted his sister Rhaenys in front of the entire court. Aerys II passed over Aegon in the line of succession in favor of his own son Viserys III.

Add the revelation of the truth of Jaime's murder of Aerys II - which essentially would have given Varys time and opportunity to get Aegon out of the city (assuming he is the real deal) - and Aegon will have no issues with this whole pardon.

Especially not if Jaime gives him juicy bits in return - like publicly destroying the claims of his own children by revealing the truth about the parentage of Tommen and Myrcella.

It is all going to backfire, of course, making Jaime even worse a Kingmaker than Criston Cole was. After all, the worst thing anyone can do at this point is putting Aegon against Daenerys - but that's what Jaime is going (to help to) do. Especially when he learns that Tyrion became a dragonrider and a powerful player at Dany's side.

He'll see Aerys come again in both 'the Mad Queen' and his little half-brother. Whatever feelings for Tyrion survived the murder of Tywin, the claims about Cersei, and the false claim that he murdered Joffrey (and those are not much, if we remember AFfC) are not going to survive the revelation that Tyrion is Aerys' brat. Jaime really hated that man. That's why he killed them. If Tyrion comes to Westeros to avenge his mad father at the side of his mad half-sister Jaime won't grant him any mercy.

Sic transit gloria mundi. The Lannisters are fucked.

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@Lord Varys, I'm just curious: Why would Jaime weep with joy at the return of the Targaryen era and why would he betray his own children either by revealing the truth about their parentage or by supporting someone who wants to overthrow / has just overthrown the Tommen / Myrcella regime, someone who has reason to want Tommen and Myrcella dead? Or do you think Jaime's children will be dead by that time? If their deaths are linked to Aegon, will Jaime be willing to support Aegon? His guilt about Rhaegar notwithstanding, will he, in this scenario, still see Aegon as the innocent child he failed to protect once? Jaime is not a model father, but we have never seen him act against his children's interests, unless I have forgotten something.

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4 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

@Lord Varys, I'm just curious: Why would Jaime weep with joy at the return of the Targaryen era and why would he betray his own children either by revealing the truth about their parentage or by supporting someone who wants to overthrow / has just overthrown the Tommen / Myrcella regime, someone who has reason to want Tommen and Myrcella dead? Or do you think Jaime's children will be dead by that time? If their deaths are linked to Aegon, will Jaime be willing to support Aegon? His guilt about Rhaegar notwithstanding, will he, in this scenario, still see Aegon as the innocent child he failed to protect once? Jaime is not a model father, but we have never seen him act against his children's interests, unless I have forgotten something.

My two penny worth is he wouldn't. 

ASoS, Jaime II 

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark. 

I don't see Jaime supporting a Targaryen restoration, and most definitely not before he feels very confident that the claimant hasn't inherited Aerys's winning personality, cruelty, and mental instability. 

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