Jaime and Aegon

[The Commentator]

On 2/24/2018 at 5:48 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

What's Jaime's feelings going to be on little baby Aegon that he failed to protect, popping back up possibly. Will Jaime feel obligated to help him and protect him? Or will Jaime go up against Rhaegar's possible son.

Jaime is a tragic figure because he is loyal to his family to the end.  He betrayed his first king and murdered him.  Perhaps justified, but that is up for debate.  He betrays his next king by cuckolding.  He's in all the way.  It's too late for him to change course.  He will fight Aegon to protect his family's interest.

[Rufus Snow]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Speaking of Brienne......... Or that it is a coincidence that TWoIaF revealed that the Tarths are descended from the Targaryens?

 

Ermm, what?!? Where? All I can find linking Tarths to Targs is:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: The Men of the Stormlands

..... Later, other monarchs preferred to dock their fleets on the western shore of Tarth, where that great island's mountains helped to shelter them from the storms that often raged through the narrow sea. The Sapphire Isle, as some call it, is ruled by House Tarth of Evenfall Hall—an old family of Andal descent that boasts of ties to the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and more recently to House Targaryen. Once kings in their own right, the Lords of Tarth still style themselves "the Evenstar," a title that they claim goes back unto the dawn of days.

There's a long way between 'ties' and being 'descended from'.

Anyway, that's not why I'm here. I like the thoughts above about Jaime possibly joining/leading the BWB, and there may be a foreshadowing in one of his thoughts:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

Re supporting Aegon, he might do so, if he believes it truly is Rhaegar's son rather than a Mummer's Dragon. I don't give any credence to claims that younger Jaime would have 'known' whether the bashed up baby was really Aegon - did he see the real Aegon before the supposed 'swap', for one thing, and surely the whole point of the 'swap' was to find another baby that really, really looked like Aegon?

The other thing that keeps niggling at me, is that Jaime hasn't really reacted yet to his aunt Genna telling him that only Tyrion was truly Tywin's son, which ties in to some other thoughts brought up. Would Jaime denounce his own children to clear the way for Aegon? Possibly - and though some think this puts them in danger, it could be what saves them, because once it comes from Jaime that they are not Robert's, then they have no claim to the IT and therefore are no threat to Aegon any more - unless of course, there is something to what Genna said...

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jaime is a tragic figure because he is loyal to his family to the end.  He betrayed his first king and murdered him.  Perhaps justified, but that is up for debate.  He betrays his next king by cuckolding.  He's in all the way.  It's too late for him to change course.  He will fight Aegon to protect his family's interest.

Unless Aegon's interest aligns with Cersei's. Wedding Marcella to Aegon would be one way.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Dofs said:

Rhaegar is long dead when Jaime has this dream but at the time he was alive, he was the rightful heir as accepted by everyone and I suspect this dream just channels Jaime's old memories of that time of how he and 7 Kingdoms perceived Rhaegar. After all, Jaime didn't want Rhaegar's children to get the throne, he didn't even care who would get it, just not them.

"...he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall."

Excellent quote. But would he say the same thing post War of the Five Kings? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ermm, what?!? Where? All I can find linking Tarths to Targs is:

There's a long way between 'ties' and being 'descended from'.

Anyway, that's not why I'm here. I like the thoughts above about Jaime possibly joining/leading the BWB, and there may be a foreshadowing in one of his thoughts:

Re supporting Aegon, he might do so, if he believes it truly is Rhaegar's son rather than a Mummer's Dragon. I don't give any credence to claims that younger Jaime would have 'known' whether the bashed up baby was really Aegon - did he see the real Aegon before the supposed 'swap', for one thing, and surely the whole point of the 'swap' was to find another baby that really, really looked like Aegon?

The other thing that keeps niggling at me, is that Jaime hasn't really reacted yet to his aunt Genna telling him that only Tyrion was truly Tywin's son, which ties in to some other thoughts brought up. Would Jaime denounce his own children to clear the way for Aegon? Possibly - and though some think this puts them in danger, it could be what saves them, because once it comes from Jaime that they are not Robert's, then they have no claim to the IT and therefore are no threat to Aegon any more - unless of course, there is something to what Genna said...

Hmm... I don't know...

Quote

Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

Jaime VI, Feast 38

[Rufus Snow]

OK, I'd forgotten that, but it's little enough and looking in the wrong direction, too ...

[kissdbyfire]

 @Rufus Snow! The quote you provided above upthread is what first made me think about Jaime leading the BwB yrs ago. I tried to find it to use it here when I brought this up, but for some.reason couldn't!

 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ermm, what?!? Where? All I can find linking Tarths to Targs is:

Who were the first men? The people of which House Tarth originate from? Some theorize they were Valryians. I believe thats the majority consensus, that or prevalyrians. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ermm, what?!? Where? All I can find linking Tarths to Targs is:

There's a long way between 'ties' and being 'descended from'.

Not in this context. It implies that there were marriages alliances between the Tarths and the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and the Targaryens. Considering that we do know no Targaryen prince ever married a Tarth, one of the Targaryen princesses whose husbands we do not yet know - or their descendants - must have married into House Tarth.

Brienne is a rather crucial character in this series. Especially since she is not only descended from the Targaryens but also from Dunk - most likely due to Dunk marrying a Targaryen princess (in my opinion Egg's sister Daella), producing Brienne's grandmother.

[Megorova]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Especially since she is not only descended from the Targaryens but also from Dunk - most likely due to Dunk marrying a Targaryen princess (in my opinion Egg's sister Daella), producing Brienne's grandmother.

They don't accept married men or men with children into Kingsguards (unless existence of those children is unknown, cause they're bastards). So could be that Dunk had a child, but wasn't married, and maybe didn't even knew himself about existence of that child. Maybe Dunk was wounded, when he fought with Lyonell Baratheon. And one of Tarth girls was taking care of him, while he was recuperating. Or maybe he had a fling with some girl, when (if) he brought princess Rhaelle to Storm's End, to marry her with Lyonell's son Ormund. And later, prior her pregnancy became obvious, that girl's parents married her to one of Tarth boys.

And the part where Brienne is supposedly a Targaryen, could be that it was Dunk, who was partially Targaryen. He could be grandson of Aegon IV, child of one of Aegon's bastards. Alysanne, Willow, Lily or Rosey - this 4 were septas. Or maybe he was son of Mya or Gwenys Rivers, sisters of Bloodraven.

[Dofs]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Excellent quote. But would he say the same thing post War of the Five Kings? 

He very well could. Jaime's memories of Aerys' atrocities are still fresh, partly because everyone reminds him of Aerys and partly because Aerys traumatised him for life. For example Jaime still feels uneasy around burnt places:

"A half mile on, green began to creep back into the world once more. Jaime was glad. The burned lands reminded him too much of Aerys."

So Jaime, knowing full well about Targaryen insanity and experiencing it first hand, could still disapprove of Aerys' ancestors ruling. 

But even not mentioning that, I just don't see Jaime fighting to get a boy on the throne simply because his grandfather had it. Jaime is someone who is committed to serve Tommen till the end of his days, fully knowing that he has no rights for the throne whatsoever. Jaime is someone who once sat on Iron Throne as if it was a simple chair, being completely oblivious to what IT represents. Jaime is someone who thought this:

"On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?"

where Jaime implies a crown doesn't make anyone special. So I just don't see Jaime trying to get Aegon on the IT, even if out of guilt for failing to protect Rhaenys and Elia. Both because Aegon is Aerys' grandson and because Jaime doesn't believe in special rights to rule for one family (Targaryen in this case). For me Jaime seems to be someone who would just accept anyone on the throne as long as he is a good.

I would also mention that I actually doubt that Jaime will be involved in Aegon storyline at all. Aegon is already in Westeros and from narrative point of view should start fighting for IT directly very soon, so for Jaime to be involved in any of this, his meeting with Lady Stoneheart has to be relatively brief and inconsequential. And I just don't see it, I believe LS would turn Jaime's story away from KL politics for quite some time.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in this context. It implies that there were marriages alliances between the Tarths and the Durrandons, the Baratheons, and the Targaryens. Considering that we do know no Targaryen prince ever married a Tarth, one of the Targaryen princesses whose husbands we do not yet know - or their descendants - must have married into House Tarth.

Brienne is a rather crucial character in this series. Especially since she is not only descended from the Targaryens but also from Dunk - most likely due to Dunk marrying a Targaryen princess (in my opinion Egg's sister Daella), producing Brienne's grandmother.

Or this is where Duncan and Jenny's child went, married off to House Tarth. Or taken in by. 

Edit- im holding hope they had children haha

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

They don't accept married men or men with children into Kingsguards (unless existence of those children is unknown, cause they're bastards).

Where are you getting this from? Widowers certainly can join the Kingsguard. Princess Daella would be dead, of course, when Dunk joins the KG, and their child would be raised at court as a royal ward, never being faraway from her father, royal uncle, and cousins.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Or this is where Duncan and Jenny's child went, married off to House Tarth. Or taken in by. 

Edit- im holding hope they had children haha

Selwyn Tarth is pretty old already. He was born either in 245-246 AC. That makes it rather unlikely that Duncan and Jenny's children - Duncan and Jenny married only married in 239 AC - were already capable of fathering children in 245-46 AC.

Thus the Targaryen blood in the Tarth line must have come in an earlier generation, and that very much implies one of Egg's sisters. Princess Vaella would also work, of course, but she is not likely to have either children or intercourse with Dunk.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

They don't accept married men or men with children into Kingsguards (unless existence of those children is unknown, cause they're bastards).

Where are you getting this from? Widowers certainly can join the Kingsguard.

The Kingsugard are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children,^[7] AGOT, Catelyn II.

The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, father children, and to hold land.^[14] ASOS, Tyrion I.

Septon Eustace says that Ser Criston slipped into Rhaenyra's bedchamber to confess his love, offering to abscond with her to one of the Free Cities where he would pledge his sword to some merchant prince, but that Rhaenyra refused him, saying a Targaryen was meant to be more than the wife of a sellsword, and that if he could forget his Kingsguard vows, he could forget marriage vows.^[4]

 

Out of all known Kingsguards and Queensguards, none had children or was married. Jaime is the only one who secretly had children, and Lewyn Martell had a secret paramour, so theoretically he could have had bastard children. But that's all.

Based on all known information, about all known members of Kingsguards, none of them were EVER married or had children. There's zero information about any of them ever being married. So none of them weren't widowers.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Based on all known information, about all known members of Kingsguards, none of them were EVER married or had children. There's zero information about any of them ever being married. So none of them weren't widowers.

LOL, you do know that a widower isn't married, right? He was married, but his marriage ended when his wife died, and all vows he swore to the effect that he was married, etc. are about as null and void as if he had never said them. You cannot be married to a corpse. At least not in any decent sense.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

46 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The Kingsugard are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children,^[7] AGOT, Catelyn II.

So are the men of the Night's Watch from where the vows for the Kingsguard were copied, yet, it didn't stop Jeor Mormont who had been married (I imagine his wife had died by then anyway), fathered children and owned land to leave all that behind and take the black and become Lord Commander. 

Fireball was promised a place in the Kingsguard, so he shipped his wife off to the Silent Sister. 

I personally find the whole Duncan with highborn descendants confusing. I don't think it's all that significant to the story in any case.

[talvikorppi]

GRRM has slipped in that reference to "kingmaker" as regards Jaime. He has also made clear Jaime regrets not having protected Rhaegar's children.

Which child of Rhaegar?

I hope he doesn't go with the fake (Aegon). For one, that would require him to go against his own children, Tommen and Myrcella. He might not be Father of the year, but he does care about them in his way.

Now, if Tommen and Myrcella were already dead (possibly due to Cersei's actions, or (f)Aegon's) Jaime might pursue a different path.

I think it's all a set up for him to become one of "team Stark" for the end game. The first thing we got from him was him first apparently saving Bran from the fall, then looking at Cersei and then flinging him out the window. Bran and Jaime must meet again and resolve this thing. Jaime is very much tied with the Starks. From Bran to his oath to Catelyn concerning the Stark girls.

Add to this the Stark bastard Jon Snow, and Jaime's regret at failing to protect Rhaegar's children... You can see where this might be going...

[The Fattest Leech]

36 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

GRRM has slipped in that reference to "kingmaker" as regards Jaime. He has also made clear Jaime regrets not having protected Rhaegar's children.

Which child of Rhaegar?

I hope he doesn't go with the fake (Aegon). For one, that would require him to go against his own children, Tommen and Myrcella. He might not be Father of the year, but he does care about them in his way.

Now, if Tommen and Myrcella were already dead (possibly due to Cersei's actions, or (f)Aegon's) Jaime might pursue a different path.

I think it's all a set up for him to become one of "team Stark" for the end game. The first thing we got from him was him first apparently saving Bran from the fall, then looking at Cersei and then flinging him out the window. Bran and Jaime must meet again and resolve this thing. Jaime is very much tied with the Starks. From Bran to his oath to Catelyn concerning the Stark girls.

Add to this the Stark bastard Jon Snow, and Jaime's regret at failing to protect Rhaegar's children... You can see where this might be going...

yup!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannisterwas unmistakable. The moonlighthad silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloack to back. 

Catelyn X, Game 63

Assuming Aegon is The Blackfyre, this might foreshadow Jaime supporting his claim (not wittingly supporting The Blackfyre, though), and in any event, it might foreshadow Jaime ending up with the Night's Watch. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, you do know that a widower isn't married, right? He was married, but his marriage ended when his wife died, and all vows he swore to the effect that he was married, etc. are about as null and void as if he had never said them. You cannot be married to a corpse. At least not in any decent sense.

There's no information about any of Kingsguards ever having a wife, or children. Except Quentyn Ball. But his wife was forced to join Silent Sisters, so it's the same as if she never existed.

In the World book, if certain character was married, but then his wife died, or something happened with her (like Lynesse nee Hightower, that ditched Jorah, or Fireball's wife, that became Silent Sister), and there was no children left, or even if there were children left, that wife was on that character's family tree, or was mentioned in that character's entry in the World book.

For example we know that Jorah Mormont's first wife was from House Glover; Willam Stark was married with Lyanne Glover, but she and their little son Brandon died, and Willam remarried with Melantha Blackwood; Wyman Manderly has two children, and is a widower for 8 years; Jon Arryn was married with Rowena Arryn, and after her death with Jeyne Royce.

But in entries of all Kingsguards, there was no mentioning of any wives or ex-wives, or dead wives, or children.

Furthermore, Fireball didn't became Kingsguard, even though he cast his wife aside. Maybe the reason why Daeron II declined to accept him into Kingsguards, is because Fireball was married before, and it actually didn't mattered that "ex"-wife became Silent Sister. Aegon IV promised to Fireball, that he will be accepted into Kingsguards, and for that Fireball sent his wife away. But what if it was a lie? What if Aegon either intentionally misled Fireball (to make fun of him, to make him cast his wife aside, even though it won't get him into Kingsguards), or maybe Aegon himself didn't knew that it doesn't work like that (someone as lewd as Aegon IV, may have been not even aware that Kingsguards are supposed to be celibate. Maybe he thought that if Fireball will get rid of his wife, then he can be accepted into Kingsguards. But he was wrong about this).

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So are the men of the Night's Watch from where the vows for the Kingsguard were copied, yet, it didn't stop Jeor Mormont who had been married (I imagine his wife had died by then anyway), fathered children and owned land to leave all that behind and take the black and become Lord Commander. 

Fireball was promised a place in the Kingsguard, so he shipped his wife off to the Silent Sister. 

I don't think that NW and KG has the same rules. It seems to me that there is a difference between them.

For example Ned Stark was supposed to go to NW, but Cat's status didn't changed. Same thing about Bittersteel and his wife Calla Blackfyre. Ned had children, Jeor Mormont had a son. Dornish Kings had wives and children, when they were sent to The Wall. 

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I personally find the whole Duncan with highborn descendants confusing.

I also don't see him marrying a highborn lady, furthermore a Targaryen princess. That is so unlikely. I doubt that Maeker let one of his daughters to marry with Duncan, who was a lowborn orphan. There was so many Lords, and Wardens, and Lord Paramounts - Baratheons in Storm's End, Tyrells in Highgarden, Lannisters in Casterly Rock, Arryns of the Eyrie, Starks from Winterfell, Martells in Dorne, Tullys in Riverrun. Any of them is a better match than Dunk. He had nothing to offer to a princess or highborn lady, or rather to her royal parents.

So if Dunk is one of Brienne's ancestors, then it's more likely that his child was a bastard. Secret child, whose mother was married off to someone else, prior people found out about her pregnancy. Could be that Dunk in his youth, impregnated some highborn girl, and that girl got married with one of Tarths, and that baby was raised as Tarth, even though actually it was Dunk's bastard child. Could be that the mother was one of Baratheon girls. Dunk did knew Lyonell Baratheon, the guy even fought for him in the Trial of Seven. And later, when there was a feud between Targaryens and Baratheons, it was Dunk who defeated Lyonell, and made him accept princess Rhaelle as his daughter-in-law. So could be that Dunk impregnated some Baratheon girl, and her parents, that were liege lords of Tarths, made one of them to marry with their daughter. This seems more likely, than the possibility that King Maeker agreed to marry his daughter with Dunk.