Tywin's corpse?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I'm stealing this so I can't properly credit the person who said it first. But on top of GRRM being ambiguous about the poisoning I think it was a metaphor for how rotten a person Tywin was at the core. And it's meant as a final slight from the Gods, no matter what he did in life the respect he so desperately craved escapes him. 

[The Sunland Lord]

Exposed corpses stink no matter what. I disagree that it was because Tywin was a baddie. 

I guess that the author wanted to emphasize the fact that no matter how mighty or powerful or weak, everybody goes out in a stinky fashion. And he choose Tywin of all people.

But, Tywin was also finally, symbolically, smiling when he was dead. Could it be that he finally found peace and let go of the control he was clinging on so hard while being alive? Is this another message, or just scientific? Depends on your personal view.

[Ygrain]

 

17 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

It never occurred to me that he had been poisoned either. I never even stopped to think of Tyrion's thoughts about his father looking like he'd been poisoned. I thought it was one giant metaphor for the kind of man Tywin really was. Tywin's hubris in life, turned around in death. Tywin was rotten to the core. His corpse stinking up the place seems very fitting.

It didn't occur to me, either, and I agree that the disgrace was very fitting.

However, I do believe that the poisoning theory holds some merit.  Constipation as a symptom of poisoning points to the widow's wail, the effects of which, for some reason, Pycelle mentions at Tyrion's trial. If Tywin often suffered from constipation, as Tyrion's expectation to find him at the privy might suggest, it would be a perfect choice of poison because no-one would suspect such a thing. However, it would also require a rather intimate knowledge of Tywin's health condition; would Oberyn know?

Which is yet another reason why I am inclined towards Varys as the culprit. Oberyn certainly would have loved to "season" Tywin's food or drink, but Tywin would be a fool not to expect or at least suspect, so I doubt Oberyn would have had an opportunity. On the other hand, Varys with his ability to access the Hand's quarters had plenty of opportunity, and above all, he had the motive - the one for which Kevan was killed. With Tywin as Hand, order in Westeros would have been restored, and fAegon wouldn't stand a chance against Tywin. Therefore, Tywin's death must have been the plan all along, and Oberyn's arrival and later Tyrion's escape  provided Varys with a perfect coverup.

 

[Light a wight tonight]

18 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Didn't Elio called the theory bullshit?

I wonder, if the theory was created to absolve Tyrion of kinslaying.

The Imp definitely did it in the privy with the crossbow, whether Tywin had or had not been poisoned. No absolution, if such is needed.

The irony of Oberyn's revenge backfiring twice is attractive, him dying and Gregor not only surviving (sort of) the poisoned spear and Tywin not succumbing to whatever noxious substance he might have ingested due to Tyrion's intervention. That would seem the normal outcome of Martel plotting; they are the worst at it. Still, I prefer Varys to Oberyn if there was a poisoner.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

That would seem the normal outcome of Martel plotting; they are the worst at it.

Surely the Starks hold that particular honour?

If Oberyn was poisoning Tywin, why would he also be so keen on discovering from the Mountain who gave him the order to kill Elia? That would surely be a pointless exercise if he was killing Tywin anyway?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

It didn't occur to me, either, and I agree that the disgrace was very fitting.

However, I do believe that the poisoning theory holds some merit.  Constipation as a symptom of poisoning points to the widow's wail, the effects of which, for some reason, Pycelle mentions at Tyrion's trial. If Tywin often suffered from constipation, as Tyrion's expectation to find him at the privy might suggest, it would be a perfect choice of poison because no-one would suspect such a thing. However, it would also require a rather intimate knowledge of Tywin's health condition; would Oberyn know?

Which is yet another reason why I am inclined towards Varys as the culprit. Oberyn certainly would have loved to "season" Tywin's food or drink, but Tywin would be a fool not to expect or at least suspect, so I doubt Oberyn would have had an opportunity. On the other hand, Varys with his ability to access the Hand's quarters had plenty of opportunity, and above all, he had the motive - the one for which Kevan was killed. With Tywin as Hand, order in Westeros would have been restored, and fAegon wouldn't stand a chance against Tywin. Therefore, Tywin's death must have been the plan all along, and Oberyn's arrival and later Tyrion's escape  provided Varys with a perfect coverup.

It's widow's blood, the poison.

And look, I don't disagree with any of this. My post speaks mostly to my impression. I also enjoy a good metaphor. 

As mad as Aerys was, he wasn't so crazy when it came of his assessment of Tywin. There must be some kind of irony there, Aerys who was terrified of being poisoned and had someone taste all of his food and Tywin, who may have thought himself above all of this because he was Tywin Lannister. 

[Light a wight tonight]

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Surely the Starks hold that particular honour?

If Oberyn was poisoning Tywin, why would he also be so keen on discovering from the Mountain who gave him the order to kill Elia? That would surely be a pointless exercise if he was killing Tywin anyway?

Starks aren't especially good plotters but they don't try it often, as opposed to the Martels. Ned might have learned how to play the game if he'd had time to learn the rules and properly identify the players. Doran had years to hatch his major plot, and plenty of time to work with Oberyn on the one at King's Landing.

I'd say that Oberyn had the info he needed and was just extracting a public confession from Gregor.

[The Fattest Leech]

19 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Didn't Elio called the theory bullshit?

Here is a discussion with Elio where he gives his opinion on Tywin being poisoned, as well as if Quentyn is still alive. 

Do with it what you will 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgfy7/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

Quote

I wonder, if the theory was created to absolve Tyrion of kinslaying.

People sure do love that monkey demon that GRRM has called the villain. 

[John Suburbs]

I don't see why it couldn't be both a poisoning and a symbolic, subtextual metaphor for Tywin's rotten life, his fear of being laughed at  or whatever.

[Lollygag]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

I don't see why it couldn't be both a poisoning and a symbolic, subtextual metaphor for Tywin's rotten life, his fear of being laughed at  or whatever.

There seems to be a culture on this forum to make things either-or when there are actually more possibilities or treating possibilities as mutually exclusive when they are not. It's rather limiting. 

In logic, it's called the Fallacy of False Dilemma or the Fallacy of Black-and-White Thinking.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

On 2/27/2018 at 6:54 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So when he died, he ran out of gold to shit?

Yes.

[Princess Daenerys]

On 2/27/2018 at 0:21 PM, Lady Char said:

I'm a big theory person so I'm opening to anything. BUT, my personal interpretation is that the corpse is just a corpse...that wasn't prepared properly. I think its purpose here is more subtextual. It shows that, in the end, Tywin was just a regular person doomed to an embarrassing death.

Unless it's a way to give Tyrion a break from kinslaying.  Is it really kinslaying and murder if Tywin was already dying from poison?  It is to us but it can save Tyrion's from self loathing.

 

 

[Barbrey Dustin]

Tywin is gold on the outside but rotten inside.  I think that is the best explanation for the unusually fast rate of decay.  The author is making a point.  I don't think Tywin is rotten inside.  He's a practical man.  But the author may see him differently than I do.

[newbieone]

On 27.02.2018 at 9:52 PM, Faera said:

I never saw it as anything other than subtext for how rotten Tywin had been in life. He was a proud man who put pride before anything else - yet he died on the crapper, murdered by the son he wronged and mistreated the most, and then was put on glorious display only for his corpse to rot and stick like his soul did.

Never even occurred to me that he was poisoned.

Same. In purely physical/biological terms, I thought the smell was partly due to the manner of his death (he took a bolt in his bowels while emptying them, after all) and partly coincidental (just decomposing badly and possibly suffering from some illness).

Varys's disposal of Tywin may well have been making sure Tyrion did what he did, hence poison would be a bit redundant and overkill.

[zandru]

On 2/28/2018 at 10:16 AM, Lollygag said:

There seems to be a culture on this forum to make things either-or when there are actually more possibilities or treating possibilities as mutually exclusive when they are not. It's rather limiting. 

Thanks for this reminder! In most cases, the available information indicates more than one possibility (another book or two would narrow this down somewhat), and while we might choose one of these to cling to, it doesn't do to get too obsessive about it. I'd add "or overthink", but then I'd end up banned!   ;-)

[John Suburbs]

Does anyone else think it's a little strange at how quickly Tywin died as well? He took one shot to the bowels up to the fletching, so there is a chance that it nicked the common iliac vein or artery. But even then, this would not kill him until a substantial amount of blood was lost. Tyrion sees it seeping around the shaft, dripping over his junk and down his thigh, then a brief exchange and Tywin is dead. When Cersei sees him the next day, she see blood on his pubes and some in his navel. To me, this does not seem like enough blood loss to cause such a quick death, but I'm no doctor.

I've often wondered if mayhaps the quarrels were poisoned unbeknownst to Tyrion?

[Kandrax]

10 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

.  Is it really kinslaying and murder if Tywin was already dying from poison?  It is to us but it can save Tyrion's from self loathing.

 

Yes, it is still kingslaying, since he finished him.