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Jamie's second chance.


AlaskanSandman

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On March 4, 2018 at 5:28 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

He swore an oath to defend the king.  This is what he should have done.  Stop the wildfire, obviously, because allowing that plan to continue is not serving the interest of the king.  If an old man like Barristan can sneak his king out of Duskendale, a fit young man like Jaime could have done the same. 

Who is Jamie what is and isn't in the interest of King Aerys? If King Aerys wishes to preemptively take out all the rebels at the cost of a city it does not give Jaimie, the man whose pledged his life to do the king's will must by his honor not try to impede upon his king's plan.

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You know, this conversation is old but it still boggles my mind how people think a young, strong, near 6,0 teen Jamie would have any difficulty restraining or incapacitating the extremely sickly and bony old man that is king Aerys until Westerland soldiers arrive. 

Hes convinced himself however he is a tragic hero.An innocent(brave don't forget brave) boy forced to slay the mad king he'd been sworn to to save hundreds of  of lives.

You know, what Jamie was never a noble soul to begin with nor was he really innocent; he joined this sacred order, having likely known the wretch to which King Aerys had become to be able to bang his sister. 

Nor does his behavior during this debacle show bravery.

He didn't slay Aerys or really try to stop the WF until his father was in the city and he was safe.

He never really learned to fully take responsibility for his dumb, immoral, behavior's consequences. 

He pushed an 8 year old boy off a building to cover up the fact he'd been banging the queen, his sister-and still is prissy at bran for spying, and even whined to Cersi to when she pointed out he basically put them in the compromising situation to get caught-and whined he was too horney to wait any longer.

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On March 1, 2018 at 7:46 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think Jaime did the right thing.

I agree with Robert - someone had to kill Aerys. Added to that, Jaime knew that Aerys was planning to nuke Kings Landing, and he was also aware of just how insane Aerys was. The White Bull or Jonothor Darry's approach, which was to ignore the fact that they were serving a monster and protect him anyway, coz vows, is on the face of it more honourable, but in reality just plain wrong.

He could have tried to save Rhaegar's family, but I don't think he knew what Tywin had planned for them. Irrespective, their deaths aren't on him. Aerys's death is on him, and I think it was 100% justified. 

 

He didn't care about the little Aegon and Rhaenys. He didn't have to kill Aerys nor was the whole burn hundreds of thousands totally his agenda-as much as it was saving his daddy. 

 

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Sorry to drag up an old topic... But could Jaime have protected/saved Rhaegar's children?

Realistically, no.

Jaime was in the Throne Room, killing Aerys. Elia and the children were in Meagor's holdfast. Tywin's mad dogs Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls and entering Maegor's even as Jaime was killing the king.

We don't have a definitive layout of the Red Keep, but from the text we know Maegor's holdfast, with its own barbican gate and dry moat, is a castle within a castle. The building housing the Throne Room is separate. We don't know how long it would take to run from the one building to the other, but it's fair to assume it'd take at least a couple of minutes.

Even if Jaime had rushed from the Throne Room to Maegor's to protect Rheagar's children, he might've been too late. In the event, he was so stunned about the enormity of what he'd done and being caught red-handed by his father's men that he just parked his bony arse on the Iron Throne to take stock, to take it all in.

Afterwards, Jaime feels guilty about not protecting Rhaegar's children, but realistically, he couldn't have, not before the king was dead, and by then it was too late.

Just thought I'd throw this here for discussion.

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8 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Sorry to drag up an old topic... But could Jaime have protected/saved Rhaegar's children?

Realistically, no.

Jaime was in the Throne Room, killing Aerys. Elia and the children were in Meagor's holdfast. Tywin's mad dogs Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were scaling the walls and entering Maegor's even as Jaime was killing the king.

We don't have a definitive layout of the Red Keep, but from the text we know Maegor's holdfast, with its own barbican gate and dry moat, is a castle within a castle. The building housing the Throne Room is separate. We don't know how long it would take to run from the one building to the other, but it's fair to assume it'd take at least a couple of minutes.

Even if Jaime had rushed from the Throne Room to Maegor's to protect Rheagar's children, he might've been too late. In the event, he was so stunned about the enormity of what he'd done and being caught red-handed by his father's men that he just parked his bony arse on the Iron Throne to take stock, to take it all in.

Afterwards, Jaime feels guilty about not protecting Rhaegar's children, but realistically, he couldn't have, not before the king was dead, and by then it was too late.

Just thought I'd throw this here for discussion.

Where does he lay hint he cared? If he cared why not go there first to escort them to safety?

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 3/11/2018 at 7:11 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Where does he lay hint he cared? If he cared why not go there first to escort them to safety?

Uhm. He's Kingguard, the only Kingsguard in KL at the time, so his job was to protect the King and carry out his commands - such as leading the defence of KL/Red Keep - not do his own thing about Rhaegar's kids. Which he probably didn't care about much, anyway, at the time. It's only with hindsight Jaime realises he probably should've handled things differently, feels guilty about Rhaegar's kids.

Not to mention he failed spectacularly at his duty to protect the King, haha! Gods, I love Jaime!

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On April 7, 2018 at 10:44 AM, talvikorppi said:

Uhm. He's Kingguard, the only Kingsguard in KL at the time, so his job was to protect the King and carry out his commands - such as leading the defence of KL/Red Keep - not do his own thing about Rhaegar's kids. Which he probably didn't care about much, anyway, at the time. It's only with hindsight Jaime realises he probably should've handled things differently, feels guilty about Rhaegar's kids.

Not to mention he failed spectacularly at his duty to protect the King, haha! Gods, I love Jaime!

He is a Kingsguard but he decided to break his oaths already-so if he cared about Rheagar's family he would have tried to save them. He didn't and I don't remember him really ever expressing regret or anger over their deaths;hell when thinking of Gregore,the man who butchered Rheagar's heir and wife, he shows no outrage at what the mountain had done.

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16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't remember him really ever expressing regret or anger over their deaths

He has a dream in ASOS where he clearly shows remorse for Rhaegar's children. He gives excuses to Rhaegar's ghost, but he clearly struggles with it. That's pretty much the entire point of Jaime's character, he's completely defined by what happened to Aerys, Rhaegar and the children. The inner struggles he has are fought out over that issue.

Could he have saved them? Who knows. Should he have tried? Of course. But he actually didn't know what Tywin had ordered the Mountain and Lorch to do. He actually ponders crowning Aegon or Viserys just after killing Aerys, but decides not to. 

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On 2/27/2018 at 3:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

How could Jamie have done it all differently? 

How could he have save Aerys II Targaryen and Rhaegar's wife and children, given the snakes (Varys, Pycell) he was working against, as his father was preparing to breach the city. 

What could he have done or what should he have done?

Should have have knocked out Aerys II and dragged him out via the secret passages?

Formed a garrison to get them out? 

Actually trust Varys who was also warning against opening the city gates to Tywin?

Not my usual post but im curious alternately what Jamie could have done different. 

 

Edit- Or should he have fought his father. Fortified the city and stand his ground like lil Tyrion did?

although I don't fault Jaime for killing Aerys, he probably couldve captured Aerys alive. Although I don't think tywin/robert would've let him live for long after that.

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Quote

The castleton outside the walls had been burned to ash and blackened stone, and many men and horses had recently encamped beside the lakeshore, where Lord Whent had staged his great tourney in the year of the false spring. A bitter smile touched Jaime's lips as they crossed that torn ground. Someone had dug a privy trench in the very spot where he'd once knelt before the king to say his vows. I never dreamed how quick the sweet would turn to sour. Aerys would not even let me savor that one night. He honored me, and then he spat on me.

This pharagraph summarizes Jaime, in my eye at least. He wasn't the best person out there but his story is indeed somewhat tragic and he genuinely cared about Rhaegar's children, being a KG and what a knight should be.

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, things aren't under your control and someone digs a privy trench to shit on you and eventyally you become shit for honor or honor means no more to you then something to mount on.

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5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, things aren't under your control and someone digs a privy trench to shit on you and eventyally you become shit for honor or honor means no more to you then something to mount on.

Someone's got a case of the Mondays!

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