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Quentyn Martell is Alive?... Death and POV characters


ScaledBird

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I have some questions about Quaiths little warning...

"Are you here?"
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."
 
 
First off, why not trust Quentyn?
 
Also, is the mummer’s dragon coming to Danny? Seems to me, if it means young Griff,then he’s in Westeros... with the griffin, Jon Con, Old Griff, for that matter.
 
Finally, do you think the fact that of Quentyn’s 4 chapters, none bear his name, is significant? After all, the final one is The Dragontamer.
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52 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Does anyone else remember who was the first person to utter Marwyn's name in the entire tale?

 

Yup, it was Mirri Maz Duur...

Yup, it is known. As well as the fact that the guy possesses a glass candle, which can be used for all kinds of uncanny stuff.

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17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have some questions about Quaiths little warning...

"Are you here?"
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."
 
 
First off, why not trust Quentyn?
 
Also, is the mummer’s dragon coming to Danny? Seems to me, if it means young Griff,then he’s in Westeros... with the griffin, Jon Con, Old Griff, for that matter.
 
Finally, do you think the fact that of Quentyn’s 4 chapters, none bear his name, is significant? After all, the final one is The Dragontamer.

I could be wrong, but at the time Quaith warned Dany, Connington and Faegon were headed towards Dany.  Of course, Tyrion/Connington's greyscale changed those plans.  It seems pretty clear that pale mare=plague, kraken is Victarion, Dark flame is Moqorro, lion and griffin are Tyrion and Connington, and Sun's son and mummers dragon are Quentyn and Faegon.  I don't really see who else the mummer's dragon could be referring to, it has to be Faegon.  

As for Quentyn, I just take it as a general warning of where his loyalties lie.  He is not loyal to Dany, he is only loyal to Dorne and the second Dany becomes a liability for Dorne she becomes a liability for Quentyn.  

As for your final question, it's interesting that no chapters refer to Quentyn by name.  But we do have his POV which doesn't really make sense unless it really is Quentyn.  As for Dragontamer, Quentyn does sort of tame one of the dragons :lol:.  It's the other one that gets him.

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15 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

A new Preston Jacobs convert :ph34r:

Quentyn Martell is deader than dead. Case closed.

I share this opinion. 

QM was the son's son in the warning.  But warnings are assumptions that someone is a possible antagonist, and the threat is not 100% going to happen.  QM was an antagonist because he tried to steal the dragons.  The warning was apt.  Dany should be careful around Quentyn, and she was. 

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have some questions about Quaiths little warning...

"Are you here?"
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."
 
 
First off, why not trust Quentyn?
 
Also, is the mummer’s dragon coming to Danny? Seems to me, if it means young Griff,then he’s in Westeros... with the griffin, Jon Con, Old Griff, for that matter.
 
Finally, do you think the fact that of Quentyn’s 4 chapters, none bear his name, is significant? After all, the final one is The Dragontamer.

Quaithe is warning Dany to be careful.  Perhaps too cautiously.  Quaithe is reading signs and her interpretations can be off the mark.  She was right to warn Dany against Quentyn because we know how far he would go to get the dragons.  Alas, he didn't get very far but that doesn't mean the warnings were wasted. 

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2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I could be wrong, but at the time Quaith warned Dany, Connington and Faegon were headed towards Dany.  Of course, Tyrion/Connington's greyscale changed those plans.  It seems pretty clear that pale mare=plague, kraken is Victarion, Dark flame is Moqorro, lion and griffin are Tyrion and Connington, and Sun's son and mummers dragon are Quentyn and Faegon.  I don't really see who else the mummer's dragon could be referring to, it has to be Faegon.  

Yes, but my point is she is wrong then... they aren’t coming soon. Or at least it sure doesn’t look that way...

2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

As for Quentyn, I just take it as a general warning of where his loyalties lie.  He is not loyal to Dany, he is only loyal to Dorne and the second Dany becomes a liability for Dorne she becomes a liability for Quentyn.  

So it’s just a general warning that people she meets might not be loyal no matter what? That’s as useless as trust no-one (actually that might be more useful advise).

half of them aren’t actually coming... she didn’t trust Quentyn and now he’s dead, possibly losing her Dorne? 

What kind of advise is that?

2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

As for your final question, it's interesting that no chapters refer to Quentyn by name.  But we do have his POV which doesn't really make sense unless it really is Quentyn.  As for Dragontamer, Quentyn does sort of tame one of the dragons :lol:.  It's the other one that gets him.

His second chapter is the Windblown...

Quote

 

"Master? Fuck that. Are you a slave? Come with us and be your own master. Do you want to die abed? We'll teach you sword and spear. You'll ride to battle with the Tattered Prince and come home richer than a lord. Boys, girls, gold, whatever you want, if you're man enough to take it. We're the Windblown, and we fuck the goddess slaughter up her arse." 
Two of the sellswords began to sing, bellowing out the words to some marching song. Quentyn understood enough to get the gist. We are the Windblown, they sang. Blow us east to Slaver's Bay, we'll kill the butcher king and fuck the dragon queen.
 
...
 
In Dorne Quentyn Martell had been a prince, in Volantis a merchant's man, but on the shores of Slaver's Bay he was only Frog, squire to the big bald Dornish knight the sellswords called Greenguts. The men of the Windblown used what names they would, and changed them at a whim. They'd fastened Frog on him because he hopped so fast when the big man shouted a command.
Even the commander of the Windblown kept his true name to himself. 
 
...
 
And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, "Behind youbehind youbehind you!"
 
...
 
Then one of the crossbowmen let fly. Maybe they meant to kill the dragons all along and were only using us to get to them. You never know with Tatters. Any way you hack it off, it weren't clever. The quarrel just made the dragons angry, and they hadn't been in such a good mood to start with. Then … then things got bad."
"And the Windblown blew away," said Ser Gerris. "Quent was screaming, covered in flames, and they were gone. Caggo, Pretty Meris, all but the dead one." 
"Ah, what did you expect, Drink? A cat will kill a mouse, a pig will wallow in shit, and a sellsword will run off when he's needed most. Can't be blamed. Just the nature of the beast."

 

 
 
And frogs hop at a command!
 
Honestly I’m not at all convinced Quentyn is alive... or that I would like it if he is, but it’s not impossible.
 
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  • 9 months later...
On 2/28/2018 at 6:58 AM, Ygrain said:

And sorry but I'm not going to watch any PJ video. Ever.

when you haven't watched the discussed matter, why do you take part in the discussion?

you can say about him what you want and about his other videos theories and so on, but some points he makes are pretty good.

if leather and flesh would burn, he would have died immediately, so he couldn't have recognized the burning, so no full power fire blow, and not directed at him, but hat his whip. so the flames would be survivable, tho he would have big scars.

missandei says he looks like he is smiling, and quentyn doesn't smile that easily, especially not when he recognized the fire.

the way arch and drink told it to barristan was a bit strange and why had drink his sword out?

On 2/28/2018 at 5:43 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

You'll get a lot of flak here for citing Preston Jacobs as a source, just FYI. 

which is a big problem in the asoiaf comunity, the different groups pick on each other and everything becomes toxic as farc.

when someone starts saying this isn't worth it because it's made by this guy, and everything he says is wrong just because he is who he is, whithout knowing what he said about that topic, or no this wll not happen, it happend in the show, which is an abomination, and the books will be different, it starts becoming like a religious discussion, and noone has fun in religious discussions.

we as asoiaf fans should focus on what binds us together, the love for the great work of a great man, and if someone has a different opinion on a topic or likes a youtuber you dislike, either accept his opinion or stay away.

have your own opinion and don't be just anti-someone

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56 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

when someone starts saying this isn't worth it because it's made by this guy, and everything he says is wrong just because he is who he is, whithout knowing what he said about that topic, or no this wll not happen, it happend in the show, which is an abomination, and the books will be different, it starts becoming like a religious discussion, and noone has fun in religious discussions.

Nobody ever owns a fan theory.  To the extent the theorist turns out to be right, the ideas are GRRMs, and the theorist is just an attentive detective or a lucky guesser.   And if it turns out to be wrong, that negates the theory. 

Regardless of PJ's other theories, I happen to agree with him that Quentyn is alive.

Irrational hostility to a theorist is usually motivated by rage that he has managed to convince others of his ideas.

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On 2/28/2018 at 7:31 AM, Ygrain said:

All the guys coming to Dany are doing so for their own reasons, to fulfill their own agendas, in which Dany is but a means to an end, hence she shouldn't trust them to help her achieve her own goals because this is not why they are coming. - My two cents on the prophecy.

I have wondered why the prophecy never included Jorah and this would fit - because Jorah is returning to serve her. This is the best analysis of that prophecy I’ve read. Not necessarily because the characters are bad but they have other agendas that may go counter hers.

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1 hour ago, Euron Lannister said:

when you haven't watched the discussed matter, why do you take part in the discussion?

you can say about him what you want and about his other videos theories and so on, but some points he makes are pretty good.

if leather and flesh would burn, he would have died immediately, so he couldn't have recognized the burning, so no full power fire blow, and not directed at him, but hat his whip. so the flames would be survivable, tho he would have big scars.

missandei says he looks like he is smiling, and quentyn doesn't smile that easily, especially not when he recognized the fire.

the way arch and drink told it to barristan was a bit strange and why had drink his sword out?

which is a big problem in the asoiaf comunity, the different groups pick on each other and everything becomes toxic as farc.

when someone starts saying this isn't worth it because it's made by this guy, and everything he says is wrong just because he is who he is, whithout knowing what he said about that topic, or no this wll not happen, it happend in the show, which is an abomination, and the books will be different, it starts becoming like a religious discussion, and noone has fun in religious discussions.

we as asoiaf fans should focus on what binds us together, the love for the great work of a great man, and if someone has a different opinion on a topic or likes a youtuber you dislike, either accept his opinion or stay away.

have your own opinion and don't be just anti-someone

I actually like some of pj videos. However believe in me when I tell you that he takes a lot of things out of context and even chronological order in order to justify his teories.

So whatever you do you need to use the actual text in the books and not pj arguments.

For exemple I just saw his videos about bowen marsh has been druging jon and he will pull off a red wedding with the NW brothers in strategic positions to exterminate the wildlings… And while his arguments were very convincing I have nearly 0 doubts that the text will support very little of what he said...

In your case you have some problems like quenting height, general body form, skin color,eyes and pieces of clothes (some would probably stick to him). And the laughing thing can be explained by the way is facial nerves were burned. In order to fake quentin's they would need someone with several similarities to him and I think grrm would have left some hint of this person in the group.

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What about the Mountain (Gregor Clegane)? He has no POV, allegedly died, returns as some undead follow.

Same question for the Hound (Sandor Clegane): has no POV, Arya left him for dead, died offscreen allegedly, but alive and well as gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.

Same question for Beric Dondarrion: non POV, died several times off screen, but witnessed by many people, still lived. Dies in Arya's POV and she witnesses him be resurrected.

As for Cat: we saw her dead corpse being dragged out of the river in Arya's POV, via a warged Nym, and the BwB's arrival.

Aside from prologue and epilogues, it requires a witness POV to either confirm a character dead or being alive (again).

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On 2/28/2018 at 10:27 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I have some questions about Quaiths little warning...

"Are you here?"
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."
 
 
First off, why not trust Quentyn?
 
Also, is the mummer’s dragon coming to Danny? Seems to me, if it means young Griff,then he’s in Westeros... with the griffin, Jon Con, Old Griff, for that matter.
 
Finally, do you think the fact that of Quentyn’s 4 chapters, none bear his name, is significant? After all, the final one is The Dragontamer.

I think it's explained by the limits of glass candles: Quaithe can only see the present situation when she gives that warning. At that moment she can see all these making plans to go to Mereen or already on their voyage with the intent to seek out Dany. In case of the griffin and mummer's dragon: still on the barge and Rhoyne, heading for the GC and Volantis. Quaithe could therefore not see in the future and thus did not know that the griffin and the mummer's dragon would abandon their original intent.

Her warning therefore is not an actual prophecy, but a warning solely.

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2 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

missandei says he looks like he is smiling, and quentyn doesn't smile that easily, especially not when he recognized the fire.

That's likely because of the disfigurement of his face due to the burns: when lips are burned off, you see the teeth, and that can look as a grin.

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9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think it's explained by the limits of glass candles: Quaithe can only see the present situation when she gives that warning. At that moment she can see all these making plans to go to Mereen or already on their voyage with the intent to seek out Dany. In case of the griffin and mummer's dragon: still on the barge and Rhoyne, heading for the GC and Volantis. Quaithe could therefore not see in the future and thus did not know that the griffin and the mummer's dragon would abandon their original intent.

Her warning therefore is not an actual prophecy, but a warning solely.

I never thought about it that way. I always tought that quaithe was seeing the future, but I actualy like that theory!

It opens a complety new perspective to quaithe's profecies.

but does the chronology fit?

moqorro and victarion weren t together at the time...

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

I never thought about it that way. I always tought that quaithe was seeing the future, but I actualy like that theory!

It opens a complety new perspective to quaithe's profecies.

but does the chronology fit?

moqorro and victarion weren t together at the time...

Think of the glass candles as some telecom apparatus with the ability to look into the world like a drone. Moqorro isn't yet with Victarion (I think), but there's an off-screen moment that Moqorro looked into the flames and decided to leave Volantis and go to Mereen. I suspect she witnessed him seeking passage or telling his superiors he would travel to Mereen with the Selaesori Qhoran (a ship that was meant to go to Qarth, but Moqorro knows will never reach its destiny). When Tyrion wants to know what Selaesori Qhoran means and Moqorro explains him

 
Quote

 

"[...]Tell me, was Selaesori Qhoran a triarch or a turtle?"
The red priest chuckled. "Neither. Qhoran is … not a ruler, but one who serves and counsels such, and helps conduct his business. You of Westeros might say steward or magister."
King's Hand? That amused him. "And selaesori?"
Moqorro touched his nose. "Imbued with a pleasant aroma. Fragrant, would you say? Flowery?"

 

 
In Qarth and Mereen a steward or magister is called a senechal, and perfume is "fragrance" and "flowery".
 
That's why Quaithe warns also about the coming of the ship, "the perfumed senechal", a mistake, since that ship never arrived either.
 

 

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46 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's likely because of the disfigurement of his face due to the burns: when lips are burned off, you see the teeth, and that can look as a grin.

Yeah, I don't see anything odd about Quentyn smiling at his death, even a burning death. We see Tywin was "smiling" as he decayed from death as well. I think Quentyn had been "three days dying", so it doesn't seem weird in this story for this to happen. There is another quote where Pycelle talks about how the corruption of Tywin was causing the face to move.

  • A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

The silent sisters had armored Lord Tywin as if to fight some final battle. He wore his finest plate, heavy steel enameled a deep, dark crimson, with gold inlay on his gauntlets, greaves, and breastplate. His rondels were golden sunbursts; a golden lioness crouched upon each shoulder; a maned lion crested the greathelm beside his head. Upon his chest lay a longsword in a gilded scabbard studded with rubies, his hands folded about its hilt in gloves of gilded mail. Even in death his face is noble, she thought, although the mouth . . . The corners of her father's lips curved upward ever so slightly, giving him a look of vague bemusement. That should not be. She blamed Pycelle; he should have told the silent sisters that Lord Tywin Lannister never smiled. The man is as useless as nipples on a breastplate. That half smile made Lord Tywin seem less fearful, somehow. That, and the fact that his eyes were closed. Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold. His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. When he looked at you, you knew.

ADDING the other quote here about Tywin's face:

  • A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

    "Is that why he looks so pleased with himself?"

    The vapors rising from the corpse were making Pycelle's eyes water. "The flesh . . . as the flesh dries, the muscles grow taut and pull his lips upward. That is no smile, only a . . . a drying, that is all." He blinked back tears. "You must excuse me. I am so very tired." Leaning heavily on his cane, Pycelle tottered slowly from the sept. That one is dying too, Jaime realized. Small wonder Cersei called him useless.

    To be sure, his sweet sister seemed to think half the court was either useless or treasonous; Pycelle, the Kingsguard, the Tyrells, Jaime himself . . . even Ser Ilyn Payne, the silent knight who served as headsman. As King's Justice, the dungeons were his responsibility. Since he lacked a tongue, Payne had largely left the running of those dungeons to his underlings, but Cersei held him to blame for Tyrion's escape all the same. It was my work, not his, Jaime almost told her. Instead he had promised to find what answers he could from the chief undergaoler, a bentback old man named Rennifer Longwaters.

 

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Think of the glass candles as some telecom apparatus with the ability to look into the world like a drone. Moqorro isn't yet with Victarion, but there's an off-screen moment that Moqorro looked into the flames and decided to leave Volantis and go to Mereen.

So you are saying that "kraken and dark flame" and "lion and griffon" are written in like this to give the idea to the reader that these characters will arrive together in order to misdirect?

Ok… I continue to like it and sounds very grrmesque. A prediction of a character disguised as a profecy that seems true to the readers because of the way it is said and in the end ends up being wrong in certain areas...

However I think it still might have chronological probs. Like were all those people planing to go to mereen at that time? If I am not mistaken the time between moqorro's decision to go to mereen and griff's decision to not go to mereen isn t long... (but I can be wrong because I really don t remembre)

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, I don't see anything odd about Quentyn smiling at his death, even a burning death. We see Tywin was "smiling" as he decayed from death as well. I think Quentyn had been "three days dying", so it doesn't seem weird in this story for this to happen. There is another quote where Pycelle talks about how the corruption of Tywin was causing the face to move.

  • A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

The silent sisters had armored Lord Tywin as if to fight some final battle. He wore his finest plate, heavy steel enameled a deep, dark crimson, with gold inlay on his gauntlets, greaves, and breastplate. His rondels were golden sunbursts; a golden lioness crouched upon each shoulder; a maned lion crested the greathelm beside his head. Upon his chest lay a longsword in a gilded scabbard studded with rubies, his hands folded about its hilt in gloves of gilded mail. Even in death his face is noble, she thought, although the mouth . . . The corners of her father's lips curved upward ever so slightly, giving him a look of vague bemusement. That should not be. She blamed Pycelle; he should have told the silent sisters that Lord Tywin Lannister never smiled. The man is as useless as nipples on a breastplate. That half smile made Lord Tywin seem less fearful, somehow. That, and the fact that his eyes were closed. Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold. His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. When he looked at you, you knew.

I think these events are completly unrelated.

Tywin was dead and the people that prepared his body for the funeral gave him that expression.

On the other hand quentin was still alive and nobody was manipulating his facial features.

 

On a sidenote, maybe grrm thinks that people naturally assume that expression when they die in certain ways?

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