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Quentyn Martell is Alive?... Death and POV characters


ScaledBird

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7 minutes ago, divica said:

So you are saying that "kraken and dark flame" and "lion and griffon" are written in like this to give the idea to the reader that these characters will arrive together in order to misdirect?

Ok… I continue to like it and sounds very grrmesque. A prediction of a character disguised as a profecy that seems true to the readers because of the way it is said and in the end ends up being wrong in certain areas...

However I think it still might have chronological probs. Like were all those people planing to go to mereen at that time? If I am not mistaken the time between moqorro's decision to go to mereen and griff's decision to not go to mereen isn t long... (but I can be wrong because I really don t remembre)

I don't think there's anything to the chronology. She's just naming those on their way to Mereen, many who are actually in Volantis or near Volantis. And then adds her warning of the perfumed senechal (imo the ship that Moqorro knew would be a jumping board in the right direction, though it would never reach either Mereen nor Qarth).

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1 minute ago, divica said:

I think these events are completly unrelated.

Tywin was dead and the people that prepared his body for the funeral gave him that expression.

No, no one gave Tywin that expression. To go behind the story curtain, GRRM has said he used the corruption of a specific death in a another story to tell about Tywin's corruption starting in his life (he was a villain) and lasting into his death. But that is not the point of this thread. Nobody gave him any expression, it happened on its own.

1 minute ago, divica said:

On the other hand quentin was still alive and nobody was manipulating his facial features.

Yup.

  • A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand

The Dornish prince was three days dying.

He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn, as cold rain hissed from a dark sky to turn the brick streets of the old city into rivers. The rain had drowned the worst of the fires, but wisps of smoke still rose from the smoldering ruin that had been the pyramid of Hazkar, and the great black pyramid of Yherizan where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with glowing orange jewels.

1 minute ago, divica said:

 

On a sidenote, maybe grrm thinks that people naturally assume that expression when they die in certain ways?

I think he uses when he needs to tell certain details about specific characters. Not everyone dies with a smile on their face.

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13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, I don't see anything odd about Quentyn smiling at his death, even a burning death. We see Tywin was "smiling" as he decayed from death as well. I think Quentyn had been "three days dying", so it doesn't seem weird in this story for this to happen. There is another quote where Pycelle talks about how the corruption of Tywin was causing the face to move.

  • A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

The silent sisters had armored Lord Tywin as if to fight some final battle. He wore his finest plate, heavy steel enameled a deep, dark crimson, with gold inlay on his gauntlets, greaves, and breastplate. His rondels were golden sunbursts; a golden lioness crouched upon each shoulder; a maned lion crested the greathelm beside his head. Upon his chest lay a longsword in a gilded scabbard studded with rubies, his hands folded about its hilt in gloves of gilded mail. Even in death his face is noble, she thought, although the mouth . . . The corners of her father's lips curved upward ever so slightly, giving him a look of vague bemusement. That should not be. She blamed Pycelle; he should have told the silent sisters that Lord Tywin Lannister never smiled. The man is as useless as nipples on a breastplate. That half smile made Lord Tywin seem less fearful, somehow. That, and the fact that his eyes were closed. Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold. His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. When he looked at you, you knew.

George often uses "smiles" to a dying man. What about Robert's "red smile". It's likely a "grimace" which in a sick way can compare to a smile. In Quentyn's case, his lips got burned off, his teeth show and he likely clenches his teeth. That would appear like a grin or grimace, hence a "smile".

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think there's anything to the chronology. She's just naming those on their way to Mereen, many who are actually in Volantis or near Volantis. And then adds her warning of the perfumed senechal (imo the ship that Moqorro knew would be a jumping board in the right direction, though it would never reach either Mereen nor Qarth).

My problem is if both moqorro and griff(and faegon) wanted to go to mereen at that time. 

Because I have the idea that they decide to go to the GC instead around the same time moqorro decides to go to mereen. But I am unsure because I don t really remember. Otherwise there should be no probs with the other characters.

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, no one gave Tywin that expression. To go behind the story curtain, GRRM has said he used the corruption of a specific death in a another story to tell about Tywin's corruption starting in his life (he was a villain) and lasting into his death. But that is not the point of this thread. Nobody gave him any expression, it happened on its own.

 

Are you sure?

Quote

The corners of her father's lips curved upward ever so slightly, giving him a look of vague bemusement. That should not be. She blamed Pycelle; he should have told the silent sisters that Lord Tywin Lannister never smiled. The man is as useless as nipples on a breastplate.

It looks like cercei is complaining that pycelle should have told the silent sisters to give him another facial expression. 

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12 minutes ago, divica said:

Are you sure?

Um, quite. It is from a Russian story and a few months ago some trollish Tywin apologist who did not believe me suddenly became quiet about it when they saw the information from GRRM himself. Yes, I am sure.

Quote

It looks like cercei is complaining that pycelle should have told the silent sisters to give him another facial expression. 

That is almost correct. Cersei is paranoid and she assumes that, but it is explained that this is happening by some other cause. No one messed with Tywin's face. *ADDED the quote two posts below*

Sometimes in death people have weird expressions, but there is no merit (or literary purpose) to have Quentyn still be alive and smiling through his fake death.

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33 minutes ago, divica said:

My problem is if both moqorro and griff(and faegon) wanted to go to mereen at that time. 

Because I have the idea that they decide to go to the GC instead around the same time moqorro decides to go to mereen. But I am unsure because I don t really remember. Otherwise there should be no probs with the other characters.

Griff's and Aegon's plan was to reach the GC, expecting Dany to appear near Volantis. Their intent was to seek out Dany and offer Aegon as her husband. They didn't know Dany remained in Mereen. Nevertheless, once they learn Dany's still in Mereen, they intend to hire boats to transport the GC and Griff and Aegon to Mereen and introduce Aegon to her there, until Aegon decides otherwise.

Quentyn was meant to seek out Dany, wherever she was, since the moment he departed from Dorne.

It's the same thing with Vic and again with Moqorro.

The only thing we can discern as timing when Quaithe saw all this, was that Astapor had already fallen and refugees fled from the city towards Mereen to get away from the pale mare. So, timeline wise, Quentyn is already with the Tattered Prince, past Astapor. So, Quaithe warned and saw what she saw through the looking glass after Astapor had fallen and before Aegon convinced the GC to head for Westeros.

However, be careful with checking the chronology of other POV chapters, since it's been reported that some chapters were switched in order by the editor before publishing (compared to George's final draft).

ETA: mentioned with caution. Quaithe warns Dany in Daenaerys II. By then Quentyn has already decided to join the free company of the Tattered Prince to go to Mereen, and Tyrion has joined Griff, Aegon and the rest of the team on the boat to make for the Rhoyne. We don't get Vic's POV until way later, but he has been sailing for months towards Essos, past the Stepstones, etc already by then, so we can safely assume he's somewhere in the Narrow Sea, past Dorne at the same moment. Moqorro is watching flames to seek for ways to get to Dany in Volantis. Because of the Perfumed Senechal mention, it's implied that Quaithe witnessed Moqorro likely seeing this as his passage to get to Mereen (but she missed the relevant info about the ship never reaching any destination). Conclusion: she warns Dany too soon, quite early on, passing on two mistakes of a ship and two people that never arrive. It likely coincides with the timeline when she contacted Marwyn via the glass candle to request his aid to help out Dany by the epilogue time of aFfC, when Marwyn decides to go to Mereen.

 

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I added the other quote to my first regarding Tywin's face and the smile.

Here it is:

  • A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

    "Is that why he looks so pleased with himself?"

    The vapors rising from the corpse were making Pycelle's eyes water. "The flesh . . . as the flesh dries, the muscles grow taut and pull his lips upward. That is no smile, only a . . . a drying, that is all." He blinked back tears. "You must excuse me. I am so very tired." Leaning heavily on his cane, Pycelle tottered slowly from the sept. That one is dying too, Jaime realized. Small wonder Cersei called him useless.

    To be sure, his sweet sister seemed to think half the court was either useless or treasonous; Pycelle, the Kingsguard, the Tyrells, Jaime himself . . . even Ser Ilyn Payne, the silent knight who served as headsman. As King's Justice, the dungeons were his responsibility. Since he lacked a tongue, Payne had largely left the running of those dungeons to his underlings, but Cersei held him to blame for Tyrion's escape all the same. It was my work, not his, Jaime almost told her. Instead he had promised to find what answers he could from the chief undergaoler, a bentback old man named Rennifer Longwaters.

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13 hours ago, divica said:

"I actually like some of pj videos. However believe in me when I tell you that he takes a lot of things out of context and even chronological order in order to justify his teories."

Classic ad hominem fallacy.  What you COULD have done instead, is point out holes in the actual theory under discussion.  That would have been ad argumentum.  Had you done that, there would have been no need for this generalized attack on PJ's character.

"So whatever you do you need to use the actual text in the books and not pj arguments."

The theory does in fact base its arguments on the actual text of the books, as most fan theories do, to at least some extent.

Since PJ does not own the theory, the theory could have been referenced without referencing PJ's name.  For instance, if this were one of the officially approved theories on this forum, the theory would have an official label in the "Compendium of Theories" with links to prior threads in THIS forum, going back to 2012, where AFAIK the theory originated.  But without such official approval, such prior threads get buried in archives, and posters tend to find out about the theory through PJ's version.

But, in any event, people should be allowed to reference a previously formulated theory without re-formulating the theory from scratch.  Nobody is under any obligation to reinvent the wheel.  I'm sure you don't follow this rule yourself.  I'm sure you feel no particular need to re-formulate theories from scratch, when discussing theories YOU agree with.

"For example I just saw his videos about bowen marsh …."

Off topic.  Also, this example is merely an illustration in support of an argumentum ad hominem.  Which is particularly irrelevant as PJ, to the best of my knowledge, did not invent the "Quentyn is Alive" theory.  He merely gave it a platform.

Your final paragraph did finally make reference to the actual theory.  I'll respond to that in a separate post.

 

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What would his purpose be?

After lies are told 'bout Daynairysss and the realm is in a quandary already, Quentin is rolled in as a surprise witness to rasp, "This beeeotch is not.....she's not good people!   Sure she looks hot but she doesn't put out!   And the dragons are bigtime butts, heinous butts without the nobility of horses.   I propose we slap sanctions on all dragon owners.  Extreme sanctions of  the kind that really produces results, like when we denied all wood to the Iron Islands.  In point of fact,  my dragon experience was so shitty I give it zero flaming comets.   Dragons are not the future.  Coal.  Coal is the future.  We need to sew her head onto the head of her dragon, because it's what's done in these situations where a beast tries to mingle and hobnob in human affairs.  Also, the real King is.... "(Dies)

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15 hours ago, divica said:

In your case you have some problems like quenting height, general body form, skin color,eyes and pieces of clothes (some would probably stick to him). And the laughing thing can be explained by the way is facial nerves were burned. In order to fake quentin's they would need someone with several similarities to him and I think grrm would have left some hint of this person in the group.

Yes, The burnt prince's dying smile is easy to explain away.  I don't think anyone is actually convinced by this 'clue' by itself.  It's just something that seems particularly fitting, in retrospect, by those who already believe or suspect the theory.

You say "I think grrm would have left some hint of this person".  I assume this is a reference to the person who (according to the theory) died in Quent's place on Dany's bed.  Okay, here (without reformulating the entire theory) are  a few hints.

(1) In the dragon pit there were no less than 6 Windblown, all but Merris dressed identically to Quentyn, 4 of whom are non-descript (that is, ordinary looking like Quentyn) and 3 of these 4 are unaccounted for (in the sense that all 3 could have all escaped, but we have no real confirmation that all 3 did).  They were all wearing a "brazen beast" disguise more or less identical to Quentyn's.

(2) General body form:  Quentyn is described as ordinary looking, unimpressive, and short of leg (but not necessarily as short).  The Tattered Prince is described as looking "tall in the high saddle" but he claims he is ordinary looking when he takes off his tattered cloak, which allows him to maneuver incognito. ("My Lord, you look different without your cloak" …. “And if I want to move unseen, I need only slip it off to become plain and unremarkable.”That Tatters seems more impressive in the "high saddle" than out of it, suggests that he too may be short of leg.

(3) Quentyn expected Tatters to be at the pit, and the explanation offered for his absence … that he is nearby with 50 men, seems suspiciously like a lie. (Where is he then, if not present and incognito?).

(4) Quentyn and Tatters are both accustomed to being addressed as "Prince"; and Tatters speaks Westerosi.

(5) Gerris is nervous about the proposed mission to Tatters for reasons that he refuses to discuss in front of Barristan.  What is he hiding?  (That Tatters is already dead?)  But Archie sees a way around Gerris' objection, that he too refuses to discuss in front of Barristan and the reader.

The theory of course has other clues.  This post is not meant to reformulate the entire theory.

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All I know is that if I were hit by dragon fire, I would not need to look at my whip, then my hand, then all of me, to know I was burning. And my first thought wouldn't be "Oh." It would be "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHGGG!!!!!!"

And later, we see that his face is almost completely burned off and his eyes are pools of pus. So how could be have seen anything at all?

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16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

All I know is that if I were hit by dragon fire, I would not need to look at my whip, then my hand, then all of me, to know I was burning. And my first thought wouldn't be "Oh." It would be "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHGGG!!!!!!"

And later, we see that his face is almost completely burned off and his eyes are pools of pus. So how could be have seen anything at all?

Obviously not the same but most times I’ve injured myself in some significant way there has been a delay between the event and the pain, presumably due to shock. Funnily enough this includes a rather nasty incident in the kitchen with a gas stove, the details of which I will leave to your imagination. 

Point being, shock can have weird effects on the body and ability to process pain

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Obviously not the same but most times I’ve injured myself in some significant way there has been a delay between the event and the pain, presumably due to shock. Funnily enough this includes a rather nasty incident in the kitchen with a gas stove, the details of which I will leave to your imagination. 

Point being, shock can have weird effects on the body and ability to process pain

True...This isn't just for cutting, but burns too. I once picked out a metal plate with pizza breads out of the oven with mittens, then set it on top of the stove, to then grab it without mittens in my haste, to go "oh" in delayed response as  the metal plate burned 2de degree burns into my palms. I saw it happen, before I actually felt it and responded to it.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

All I know is that if I were hit by dragon fire, I would not need to look at my whip, then my hand, then all of me, to know I was burning. And my first thought wouldn't be "Oh." It would be "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHGGG!!!!!!"

And later, we see that his face is almost completely burned off and his eyes are pools of pus. So how could be have seen anything at all?

I know people tend to crook themselves up in knots when I bring up GRRM's writing style in his other stories as (slight) comparisons for ASOIAF, but this "Oh" reaction as death is engulfing you isn't really new to him. Take it as you will ('you' meaning anyone), but this seems to be a normal theme for him to use in certain situations. I have included one such example below.

From Nightflyers:

Spoiler

The story Nightflyers is about a "haunted" ship- just to super simplify it. Anyway, the ship is called the Nightlfyer, which is what is haunted by the mad mother. The ship is a dragon in many, many ways- from being made of three eggs, to the madness, to second-lifing, to nuclear engines (GRRM has called the dragons nuclear deterrants), to the ship's fiery mouth, to a few other examples I can't bring to memory at the moment. Anyway, this part with Lommie Thorne is very close to the Quentyn scene in the dragon's pit. Lommie has snuck down into the cargo hold to try and bypass the ship's computer controls so that she and the other developing mutineers can take over the ship. (Hahahahaha, yeah right!). Lommie is equipped with with a computer jack that is built in to her that hooks in through her arm/veins. This is akin to Quentyn claiming he can ride a dragon because he has dragon blood through whatever lineage he was claiming. Lommie and Quentyn have a lot of parallels. In the passage below, you can recognize much of the same type of scene setup, and when Lommie says "Oh," and stops whistling, that is because she was just "consumed" and killed.

  • Their eyes went to the huge curving outer airlock above their heads. The inner lock was almost completely open, and as they watched it clicked into place, and the seal on the outer door cracked, and now it was open half a meter, sliding, and beyond was twisted nothingness so burning-bright it seared the eyes. “Oh,” said Lommie Thorne, as the cold coursed up her arm. She had stopped whistling.

Adding this Quentyn part for some comparison:

  • And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!” Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

 

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3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Obviously not the same but most times I’ve injured myself in some significant way there has been a delay between the event and the pain, presumably due to shock. Funnily enough this includes a rather nasty incident in the kitchen with a gas stove, the details of which I will leave to your imagination. 

Point being, shock can have weird effects on the body and ability to process pain

True, but when one is in shock they tend not to casually contemplate the steady destruction of their own bodies and then suddenly slip out of shock to experience the emotional reaction.

I have my own experience that involves a campfire and a cannister of lamp oil, which I will leave to your imagination. B)

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It says he raised his left arm across his face to shield his eyes. 

Not well enough apparently because they melted all the same.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

True...This isn't just for cutting, but burns too. I once picked out a metal plate with pizza breads out of the oven with mittens, then set it on top of the stove, to then grab it without mittens in my haste, to go "oh" in delayed response as  the metal plate burned 2de degree burns into my palms. I saw it happen, before I actually felt it and responded to it.

This is vastly different from being blasted by dragonfire. The fact that he was able to think and react at all speaks volumes about the incident. It's pretty much the same as being hit with molten lava.

 

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know people tend to crook themselves up in knots when I bring up GRRM's writing style in his other stories as (slight) comparisons for ASOIAF, but this "Oh" reaction as death is engulfing you isn't really new to him. Take it as you will ('you' meaning anyone), but this seems to be a normal theme for him to use in certain situations. I have included one such example below.

From Nightflyers:

  Hide contents

The story Nightflyers is about a "haunted" ship- just to super simplify it. Anyway, the ship is called the Nightlfyer, which is what is haunted by the mad mother. The ship is a dragon in many, many ways- from being made of three eggs, to the madness, to second-lifing, to nuclear engines (GRRM has called the dragons nuclear deterrants), to the ship's fiery mouth, to a few other examples I can't bring to memory at the moment. Anyway, this part with Lommie Thorne is very close to the Quentyn scene in the dragon's pit. Lommie has snuck down into the cargo hold to try and bypass the ship's computer controls so that she and the other developing mutineers can take over the ship. (Hahahahaha, yeah right!). Lommie is equipped with with a computer jack that is built in to her that hooks in through her arm/veins. This is akin to Quentyn claiming he can ride a dragon because he has dragon blood through whatever lineage he was claiming. Lommie and Quentyn have a lot of parallels. In the passage below, you can recognize much of the same type of scene setup, and when Lommie says "Oh," and stops whistling, that is because she was just "consumed" and killed.

  • Their eyes went to the huge curving outer airlock above their heads. The inner lock was almost completely open, and as they watched it clicked into place, and the seal on the outer door cracked, and now it was open half a meter, sliding, and beyond was twisted nothingness so burning-bright it seared the eyes. “Oh,” said Lommie Thorne, as the cold coursed up her arm. She had stopped whistling.

Adding this Quentyn part for some comparison:

  • And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!” Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

 

Still completely different situations. Someone seeing an airlock opening, seeing a bright light and feeling the cold vs. someone who does not realize he has been burned by dragonfire, including his eyes, until he "looks" at his whip, his arm, etc. Honestly, he is engulfed in dragonfire and he experiences it as nothing more than a "hot wind" and then casually remembers that the green one is Rhaegal before he even notices he is on fire? Come on.

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45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

True, but when one is in shock they tend not to casually contemplate the steady destruction of their own bodies and then suddenly slip out of shock to experience the emotional reaction.

I have my own experience that involves a campfire and a cannister of lamp oil, which I will leave to your imagination. B)

Not well enough apparently because they melted all the same.

This is vastly different from being blasted by dragonfire. The fact that he was able to think and react at all speaks volumes about the incident. It's pretty much the same as being hit with molten lava.

 

Still completely different situations. Someone seeing an airlock opening, seeing a bright light and feeling the cold vs. someone who does not realize he has been burned by dragonfire, including his eyes, until he "looks" at his whip, his arm, etc. Honestly, he is engulfed in dragonfire and he experiences it as nothing more than a "hot wind" and then casually remembers that the green one is Rhaegal before he even notices he is on fire? Come on.

You’re right. I totes made it all up. 

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