Quentyn Martell is Alive?... Death and POV characters

[Clegane'sPup]

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So the dragonfire only burned him from the neck down, and then that fire got so hot that it turned his eyes to pus and caused is face to slough off? Not very likely.

Let us consider how strong martin's little lizard dragons are. I'm embellishing a bit ---Six foot tall man, 200 pounds, gets sprayed with horse size dragon fire---

During the course of that the minions were able to pull Quentin aside and supply a charred body so that Barry could tell the child scribe Missy

A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand      Missandei pulled the coverlet over the prince's face. "What will be done with him, ser? He is so very far from home."    "I'll see that he's returned to Dorne." But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We'll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver's Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away. "You should go sleep now, child. In your own bed."

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, of course Quent didn't die from being spewed with dragon fire because the dragons are to small to amount to any type of threat. Rumor has it that Drogon the largest of the dragons char boiled a child. The two chained up dragons in the bowels of the pyramid couldn't possibly roast Quent.

For fun and for free lets ask why when Sandor as a child got his face smashed into a fire didn't die from the wound due to infection.

Think about it for a minute.  What do we call it, which degree of burn --- one, two or three ---

Bring in the firemen --- how hot does a fire get?

Ever been close to a controlled burn without protective gear?

Quent got toasted by Dany's kids.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is vastly different from being blasted by dragonfire. The fact that he was able to think and react at all speaks volumes about the incident. It's pretty much the same as being hit with molten lava.

The fact that he could see it coming, actually would promote the mental delay effect. When you're not watching you can only rely on the sensation of pain. But when you view whatever it hurting you, some of the bodily responses (such adrenaline release) cause a hyperfocus, totally distorting the sense of time. Whether it's someone with a torchblower, an uncoming car, the knife you just watched slice your own finger with.... And it's this eperience that George attempts to evoke in Quentyn's POV.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You’re right. I totes made it all up. 

?

I'm just saying the situations are vastly different: an airlock slowly opening vs. a sudden blast of dragonfire.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

?

I'm just saying the situations are vastly different: an airlock slowly opening vs. a sudden blast of dragonfire.

 

Not the way GRRM translates his themes from one to the other. 

I’m not gonna fight this though. Several have given you both real world examples and examples of how the author uses this in his own fantasies, and you reject both. It is all just sharing info. 

I'm sure Winds will blow us all away 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Let us consider how strong martin's little lizard dragons are. I'm embellishing a bit ---Six foot tall man, 200 pounds, gets sprayed with horse size dragon fire---

During the course of that the minions were able to pull Quentin aside and supply a charred body so that Barry could tell the child scribe Missy

A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand      Missandei pulled the coverlet over the prince's face. "What will be done with him, ser? He is so very far from home."    "I'll see that he's returned to Dorne." But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We'll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver's Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away. "You should go sleep now, child. In your own bed."

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, of course Quent didn't die from being spewed with dragon fire because the dragons are to small to amount to any type of threat. Rumor has it that Drogon the largest of the dragons char boiled a child. The two chained up dragons in the bowels of the pyramid couldn't possibly roast Quent.

For fun and for free lets ask why when Sandor as a child got his face smashed into a fire didn't die from the wound due to infection.

Think about it for a minute.  What do we call it, which degree of burn --- one, two or three ---

Bring in the firemen --- how hot does a fire get?

Ever been close to a controlled burn without protective gear?

Quent got toasted by Dany's kids.

 

 

The point is that if his face was hit with a blast of dragonfire so hot that it caused the flesh to melt off his skull and turn his eyes to jelly, then he should not have been able to see at all -- not the whip, not his arm, his body, nothing. And it certainly should not escape his notice for three, four, five seconds maybe that he entire body is on fire.

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The fact that he could see it coming, actually would promote the mental delay effect. When you're not watching you can only rely on the sensation of pain. But when you view whatever it hurting you, some of the bodily responses (such adrenaline release) cause a hyperfocus, totally distorting the sense of time. Whether it's someone with a torchblower, an uncoming car, the knife you just watched slice your own finger with.... And it's this eperience that George attempts to evoke in Quentyn's POV.

He does not see it coming until he turns around. Everyone else who has been hit with dragonfire, whether they see it or not -- the undying, the men in the pit... -- react instantly to being scorched: running, flailing, screaming, panic. Let's break down what happens with Quentyn:

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And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing "Behind you, behind you behind you!"

This is when the dragonfire first hits him. He's smack in the middle of it, ashes and cinders all around him, blackened bricks and his friends screaming in terror. But all he feels is a "hot wind."

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Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

He shields his face from the furnace wind. Not the new blast of fire coming his way but the same hot furnace wind that he's been engulfed in this whole time. And still he has not even noticed that he is on fire. Finally:

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When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he though. Then he began to scream.

Even then, it takes one look, then another, then another before it finally registers what is happening. This is not shock-induced time distortion. This is one event after another all happening externally to Quentyn's experience: the ashes and cinders, the blackened bricks, his friends yelling "Behind you, behind you..." All while Quentyn is utterly oblivious to that fact that he is now burning alive. He feels nothing from the fire.

Also, people in shock are in a daze, not thinking tactically or strategically, which Quentyn is still doing as he turns on Rhaegal trying to remember his name.

Sorry, but the more I look at this, the more convinced I become that Quentyn was most definitely not the body that Barry saw later. He may or may not be alive, but that was definitely someone else.

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not the way GRRM translates his themes from one to the other. 

I’m not gonna fight this though. Several have given you both real world examples and examples of how the author uses this in his own fantasies, and you reject both. It is all just sharing info. 

I'm sure Winds will blow us all away 

Sorry, but this is not a theme. These are two completely different situations, one of which is happening slowly and coldly and another is a sudden, enormous blast of dragon fire. The only similarity is that they both say "Oh." And in Quentyn's case, this comes after his whole body, including his face and eyes, have been immolated with white hot fire, yet he is still able to see. 

And there are no "real world examples" of being hit with dragonfire.

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

All while Quentyn is utterly oblivious to that fact that he is now burning alive. He feels nothing from the fire.

Also, people in shock are in a daze, not thinking tactically or strategically, which Quentyn is still doing as he turns on Rhaegal trying to remember his name.

Sorry, but the more I look at this, the more convinced I become that Quentyn was most definitely not the body that Barry saw later. He may or may not be alive, but that was definitely someone else.

You do know what fire and heat does to sensibilities right?

https://www.healthline.com/health/burns#thirddegree-burn

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Excluding fourth-degree burns, third-degree burns are the most severe. They cause the most damage, extending through every layer of skin.

There is a misconception that third-degree burns are the most painful. However, with this type of burn the damage is so extensive that there may not be any pain because of nerve damage.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You do know what fire and heat does to sensibilities right?

https://www.healthline.com/health/burns#thirddegree-burn

Barristan was right, he would have definitely been better off getting eaten instead. 

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Barristan was right, he would have definitely been better off getting eaten instead. 

Yup, the boy paid dearly for his folly. At least it was painless. In his case it was even more than 3rd degree but what is called full-thickness burn : charring and to the bone. Any nerves to feel pain are gone. And in his case from top to toe.

[Platypus Rex]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, the boy paid dearly for his folly.

His hair will probably grow back, though.  Dany's did after all.

"At least it was painless."

Yeah, it was probably just a panic that made him scream.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

"At least it was painless."

Yeah, it was probably just a panic that made him scream.

If you've been blowtorched head to toe, regardless whether you feel any pain or not, wouldn't you scream? Rhaegal didn't seem to think much of the drop of Targ blood in Quentyn, they liked Ben Plumm's drop of Targ blood better, seeking him out.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but this is not a theme. These are two completely different situations, one of which is happening slowly and coldly and another is a sudden, enormous blast of dragon fire. The only similarity is that they both say "Oh."

Read that story to get the entire scene. I shared a small part for brevity sake. The mouth of the dragon ship opens and the girl is instantly engulfed in an elemental cold and she dies, giving an “oh” as her arm and the wired link (whip) all succumb to the “elements “. GRRM says in his own words that when he likes something he’s written, he feels free to use it again. He seems to like the way some characters are engulfed in whatever story element, and then die this way. 

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And in Quentyn's case, this comes after his whole body, including his face and eyes, have been immolated with white hot fire, yet he is still able to see. 

 So, it’s not instant? And doesn’t Quentyn cover his eyes as it happens?  

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And there are no "real world examples" of being hit with dragonfire.

Pffft, everyone knows GRRM doesn’t like dragons in real life. That’s why he donates to a wolf sanctuary and not a dragon sanctuary. Duh! 

The real world examples were the other posters in this thread sharing with you their experiences that happened to them.

Just like when I pulled a cast iron roasting pan out of the oven, put the pot holder down, did something else for a second, then turned back and grabbed a 450 degree handle and it took a second for the heat to register. Same when I wore shorts in a restaurant kitchen I worked at when I was younger and walked by an open oven door and gave myself a nice square scar that I still have. I heard the sizzle before the pain. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, the boy paid dearly for his folly. At least it was painless. In his case it was even more than 3rd degree but what is called full-thickness burn : charring and to the bone. Any nerves to feel pain are gone. And in his case from top to toe.

The term “full-thickness burn” makes it sound even more horrid 

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is when the dragonfire first hits him. He's smack in the middle of it, ashes and cinders all around him, blackened bricks and his friends screaming in terror. But all he feels is a "hot wind."

Eh, nope. This is before the fire hits him. His friends are not screaming in terror but shouting to warn him - it's hardly any use to scream "behind you" at a man already engulfed in flames, don't you think? What Quentyn feels is the dragon's hot breath when it roared before it spat fire, just like Dany felt it in the Pit when Drogon roared at her. The bricks are not being scorched at that moment but scorched and blackened already because it's the wall of a fire-breathing dragon nest. Quentyn doesn't see the moment when the fire is issued as he is only turning and shielding his eyes - note that he reminds himself that the green dragon is Rhaegal but he doesn't have the time to actually see the dragon, all he sees is the fire.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Even then, it takes one look, then another, then another before it finally registers what is happening.

No. Those are not three different looks, that's just registering three bits of information, written in a dramatic way that makes it seem longer than it really was because brain takes information in way faster than we can say or write it. There is barely half a second delay when Quentyn thinks "oh", and then he starts screaming.

 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is not shock-induced time distortion. This is one event after another all happening externally to Quentyn's experience: the ashes and cinders, the blackened bricks, his friends yelling "Behind you, behind you..." All while Quentyn is utterly oblivious to that fact that he is now burning alive. He feels nothing from the fire.

Because at that moment, he's not burning yet.

 

A to the extent of Quentyn's injuries:

"So much of the prince’s flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus." We also know that his lips had burned off.

However, it is never stated that this was instantaneous damage occuring at the very moment when the fire hit him. He was set aflame, his clothes were burning. Yronwood sustained burns to his hands putting the fire out. Meaning, Quentyn was burning for a good while. His arm shielding his eyes protected them for that half a second needed to see that he was burning, no more.

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The point is that if his face was hit with a blast of dragonfire so hot that it caused the flesh to melt off his skull and turn his eyes to jelly, then he should not have been able to see at all -- not the whip, not his arm, his body, nothing. And it certainly should not escape his notice for three, four, five seconds maybe that he entire body is on fire.

With all due respect, it is my opinion that the scene set the tempo for how dangerous dragon fire is. I'm not all into Targ history and such but what I've read is the Targs without dragon flame are powerless against an army of men who would revolt (Robert's Rebellion). As in why Aerys was so interested in wildfire production.

War --- power & control of the minions is about who is the larger threat --- who has the most destructive weapon.

If people want to believe Quent is alive. It is okay with me. Personally I think Quent is dead.

The point is that Dany has dragons, powerful flame blowing beasts. Granted that Dany's dragons (children) are not anywhere near what is depicted on screen and that at this point in the story she cannot control them.

The in story malice is that people want a dragon. Quent got burnt because he wanted tame a dragon. Vic wants a dragon. Euron wants a dragon. Due to the destruction that the dragons can cause some want the dragons dead.

None of that matters much as it relates to Quent's death. Except what is written ---

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer      Two eyes rose up before him (the green one Rhaegal).     Bronze, they were, brighter than polished shields, glowing with their own heat, burning behind a veil of smoke rising from the dragon's nostrils. The light of Quentyn's torch washed over scales of dark green, the green of moss in the deep woods at dusk, just before the last light fades. Then the dragon opened its mouth, and light and heat washed over them. Behind a fence of sharp black teeth he glimpsed the furnace glow, the shimmer of a sleeping fire a hundred times brighter than his torch. The dragon's head was larger than a horse's, and the neck stretched on and on, uncoiling like some great green serpent as the head rose, until those two glowing bronze eyes were staring down at him./

There it is, martin's description of what Quent faced.

Martin goes on to describe Viserion.

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer     Viserion. Yes. Where is Viserion? The prince lowered his torch to throw some light into the gloom below. He could see the green dragon ripping at the smoking carcass of the sheep, his long tail lashing from side to side as he ate. A thick iron collar was visible about his neck, with three feet of broken chain dangling from it. Shattered links were strewn across the floor of the pit amongst the blackened bones—twists of metal, partly melted. Rhaegal was chained to the wall and floor the last time I was here, the prince recalled, but Viserion hung from the ceiling. Quentyn stepped back, lifted the torch, craned his head back.     For a moment he saw only the blackened arches of the bricks above, scorched by dragonflame. A trickle of ash caught his eye, betraying movement. Something pale, half-hidden, stirring. He's made himself a cave, the prince realized. A burrow in the brick. The foundations of the Great Pyramid of Meereen were massive and thick to support the weight of the huge structure overhead; even the interior walls were three times thicker than any castle's curtain walls. But Viserion had dug himself a hole in them with flame and claw, a hole big enough to sleep in.    And we've just woken him. He could see what looked like some huge white serpent uncoiling inside the wall, up where it curved to become the ceiling. More ash went drifting downward, and a bit of crumbling brick fell away. The serpent resolved itself into a neck and tail, and then the dragon's long horned head appeared, his eyes glowing in the dark like golden coals. His wings rattled, stretching./

That is part of the description as Quent enters into the dragon lair inside the pyramid. Reads pretty ominous to me.

So, Quent desires and Quent decides he is gonna be a dragon tamer. He talks to the dragons. Then some one let loose with a quarrel (arrow). The dragon chomped down on the bowman.

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer     And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, "Behind you, behind you, behind you!"    Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal./

Since I have not died nor faced near death I do not know what flashes in the the mind of a dying person but this is what Quent via martin thinks ---  "When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.   Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

Quent tried to get himself a dragon and Quent got toasted.

[Platypus Rex]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Rhaegal didn't seem to think much of the drop of Targ blood in Quentyn ...

Neither did Drogon when he doused Dany in his "furnace wind" (exact same words).  And Dany too "was burning", according to Barristan anyway.

[Platypus Rex]

13 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"With all due respect, it is my opinion that the scene set the tempo for how dangerous dragon fire is."

That seems beyond unnecessary at this point.  But who am I to argue that GRRM never wastes words, or even entire chapters.  The proof is in the pudding, and GRRM has yet to finish his story.

"If people want to believe Quent is alive. It is okay with me. Personally I think Quent is dead."

You don't have to be convinced by the arguments offered.  But it would be more respectful of others to say that certain arguments and evidence have been offered, and some are convinced by it, and some are not. 

Personally, I have never been conscious of any particular love of Quentyn or any particular desire for him to be alive.  As far as I can tell, I am merely following the evidence.

"Quent got burnt because he wanted tame a dragon. Vic wants a dragon. Euron wants a dragon."

At some point, presumably someone is going to not only "want to tame a dragon" , but "want to tame a dragon" and succeed.  Else Dany going to just have to take Drogon to Westeros, and let the story leave the other dragons behind.

But if you want to argue that trying to tame dragons sounds generally like a bad idea … well … you sure have a point.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

39 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Neither did Drogon when he doused Dany in his "furnace wind" (exact same words).  And Dany too "was burning", according to Barristan anyway.

Let's talk about this.

Is the insinuation that because Dany didn't die Quent didn't die? 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

Just now, Platypus Rex said:

That seems beyond unnecessary at this point.  But who am I to argue that GRRM never wastes words, or even entire chapters.  The proof is in the pudding, and GRRM has yet to finish his story.

"If people want to believe Quent is alive. It is okay with me. Personally I think Quent is dead."

You don't have to be convinced by the arguments offered.  But it would be more respectful of others to say that certain arguments and evidence have been offered, and some are convinced by it, and some are not. 

Personally, I have never been conscious of any particular love of Quentyn or any particular desire for him to be alive.  As far as I can tell, I am merely following the evidence.

"Quent got burnt because he wanted tame a dragon. Vic wants a dragon. Euron wants a dragon."

At some point, presumably someone is going to not only "want to tame a dragon" , but "want to tame a dragon" and succeed.  Else Dany going to just have to take Drogon to Westeros, and let the story leave the other dragons behind.

But if you want to argue that trying to tame dragons sounds generally like a bad idea … well … you sure have a point.

 

Cool beans, You and I are merely voicing our opinions. Yea or nay.

[Platypus Rex]

6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Let's talk about this.

Is the insinuation that because Dany didn't die Quent didn't die? 

No.  I believe that Quent is alive for other reasons.  But when people argue that he must be dead because he was engulphed in dragon fire, I respond by pointing out that the language used for this is almost exactly the same as language that has been used for Dany on a similar occasion.

Since I don't believe the unrecognizable man in Dany's bed is Quentyn, the extent of that man's injuries is irrelevant.