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ScaledBird

Quentyn Martell is Alive?... Death and POV characters

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After re-watching Preston Jacobs video on why he believes Quentyn Martell is alive I began to think about the death of POV characters.

 ASOIAF is great at surprising us with deaths of characters we see as the main characters but I think I may have noticed a possible pattern which could shed light on Quentyn's death. I'm not going to go over the reasons why he may be alive or dead (Although the idea of George giving us a classic Hero's journey, with Dragons and all, ending with the Hero dying in agony on the other side of the world from home would be fitting with the story).

Firstly lets look at all the POV characters who have died...

Ned

Arys Oakheart

Will (Night's Watch)

Maester Cressen

Chett

Pate

Varamyr

Merret Frey

Kevan Lannister

Catelyn (dies but is alive)

Jon Snow (unconfirmed, alive in TV show)

and Quentyn Martell

First thing I noticed was that the majority (Will, Maester Cressen, Chett, Pate, Varamyr, Merret Frey and Kevan Lannister) died in prologues and epilogues (in their one and only chapters)- *side note* Never be a POV character in ASOIAF Prologues or Epilogues, you will not survive.

Anyway, lets look at the remaining dead. Ned, Arys and possibly Jon and Catelyn (les ignore Quentyn for now). Ned and Arys both died in chapters where they were not the POV character (Ned in Arya's and Arys in Arianne's). Cat dies in her own POV chapter but is now alive and Jon is unconfirmed but most believe that he will come back as well, he also dies in his own POV chapter.

Now Quentyn could fit in both of these groups. His death begins in his own POV chapter but he (or the unrecognisable burned body) is confirmed dead in Barristan Selmy's POV chapter. If Quentyn is confirmed to be alive then POV death still only happens to Prologue/Epilogue characters. 

 

If he is truly dead, you could argue that this is still true, but he would be the only character we see begin to die and then actually dies. We see Brienne begin to be hanged but she is seen later by Jaime, We see Davos drown but he survives. Will Quentyn be more like these two?

 

If Quentyn is alive, what purpose will he play? Dany was warned about the Sun's son, was that simply because he would release the dragons on Mereen?

 

 

Defiantly watch Preston Jacobs video... I would recommend all of them. I dont find I agree with all of them, but they do make me rethink a lot of what I thought making each re-read more fun.

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Last time we see Quentyn in his own PoV, he is engulfed in fire. In Barristan's PoV, his gruesome dying is spelled out black on white and Barristan muses what to do with his body - no such PoV switch exists for Brienne and for Davos it is only because Wyman fakes his execution.

 The only option that Quentyn might come back is a fire wight, if Moqorro arrives before Quentyn's body is put somewhere for defleshing by bugs, but I can't imagine why Moqorro would do that unless as a total showoff of his powers and should that be the case, I wouldn't really call Quentyn alive, not with all the damage that his body suffered. If you look at Cat and Beric, the injuries don't go away with resurrection, so poor Quentyn would really be a sore sight.

And sorry but I'm not going to watch any PJ video. Ever.

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Well done for laying out the pattern, but you kind of disprove your own point, by showing that he doesn't actually die in his own POV chapter, but instead in Barristan's. He could of course be magicked back alive, but then so could anyone, so we'll have to wait and see.

As to this:

13 hours ago, ScaledBird said:

If Quentyn is alive, what purpose will he play? Dany was warned about the Sun's son, was that simply because he would release the dragons on Mereen?

Possibly it did mean just that, or was a warning about going into an alliance with Dorne (which Quentyn's offer of marriage represented), or it might not mean Quentyn, but Trystane, or even a bastard of Doran/Oberyn we are as yet unaware of. We just don't know as yet.

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All the guys coming to Dany are doing so for their own reasons, to fulfill their own agendas, in which Dany is but a means to an end, hence she shouldn't trust them to help her achieve her own goals because this is not why they are coming. - My two cents on the prophecy.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

All the guys coming to Dany are doing so for their own reasons, to fulfill their own agendas, in which Dany is but a means to an end, hence she shouldn't trust them to help her achieve her own goals because this is not why they are coming. - My two cents on the prophecy.

I like the idea that all those mystical prophesies essentially boil down to the advice given to every teenage girl throughout the ages - Don't trust men. 

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I like the idea that all those mystical prophesies essentially boil down to the advice given to every teenage girl throughout the ages - Don't trust men. 

Lol, nice :D

It has also been pointed out that Marwyn is notably absent - either because he was not planning to go to Dany yet, or because he means well to her, or because he's the one manipulating the prophesy to his benefit. - There was a thread about this but unfortunately, I have forgotten most of it.

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It has also been pointed out that Marwyn is notably absent - either because he was not planning to go to Dany yet, or because he means well to her, or because he's the one manipulating the prophesy to his benefit. - There was a thread about this but unfortunately, I have forgotten most of it.

You mean he's absent from the warning prophecy? If so, it could well be because he's actually trustworthy. He certainly seems motivated by good intentions towards Dany, though of course we don't know for certain that he is. 

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47 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

You mean he's absent from the warning prophecy? If so, it could well be because he's actually trustworthy. He certainly seems motivated by good intentions towards Dany, though of course we don't know for certain that he is. 

I think that he may want to help Dany, but also i think that he will probably try to influence her to achieve his personal goals to maybe eliminate his rivals from Citadel.

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I personally think that Quentyn is dead as I see no point to his survival and a lot of point in his death. His existence was to not only subvert the frog prince trope so heavily referenced in his own story but to move the plot forward drastically by achieving the following:

- Short-term: Releasing Viserion and Rhaegal in time for the Battle for Meereen and Victarion blowing Dragonbinder to, inevitably, kill him and/or secure a dragon for Euron and/or do something even worse.

- Long-term: Quentyn’s death has likely ruined any hope Dany had of an alliance with Dorne. Once Arianne (and Doran) finds out that Quentyn is dead, they might well abandon any wish to be associated with her and throw their support behind Aegon instead, making Dany’s eventual homecoming feel less and less welcome. Westeros will already have their “token Targaryen” and, if Aegon is well respected and liked, I imagine plenty of people wouldn’t give a rat’s rump if he’s secretly a Blackfyre or even just a nameless fraud. Dany will have lost the staunchest Targ supporters to "the mummer’s dragon" before she’s even started and no clear "in" (or no "in" at all!0 when making her own claim to the throne.

TL;DR - Quentyn dying by dragon fire leaves Daenerys without an automatic alliance when she gets to Westeros.

Now, yes, all of this could still happen and Quentyn be alive but... why? Quentyn’s story is supposed to be sad and having him randomly be revealed to still be alive... IDK. I don’t think it would add anything. Unless someone resurrects him and he has to walk around disfigured by fire, I’m genuinely hoping Quentyn’s story remains a sad tale and catalyst that Dany will sorely regret later. I mean, Quentyn could easily have been Dany’s “mount to wed” instead of Hzdar but she picked a short term solution over a long term goal.

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I think that he may want to help Dany, but also i think that he will probably try to influence her to achieve his personal goals to maybe eliminate his rivals from Citadel.

That seems likely, but clearly he has an idea that links the Targaryens with magic, and sees them as allies in some greater conflict. It may be he has his own agenda, but that agenda may be so wedded to Dany's own that it is for all intents and purposes indistinguishable. 

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2 minutes ago, Faera said:

Now, yes, all of this could still happen and Quentyn be alive but... why? Quentyn’s story is supposed to be sad and having him randomly be revealed to still be alive... IDK. I don’t think it would anything.

Unless someone resurrects him and he has to walk around disfigured by fire, I’m genuinely hoping Quentyn’s story remains a sad tale and catalyst that Dany will sorely regret later. I mean, Quentyn could easily have been Dany’s “mount to wed” instead of Hzdar but she picked a short term solution over a long term goal.

The why of it is a key question definitely. I can't think of a good narrative reason why. Also, we will have a "resurrection" in Winds (probably) in the form of Jon. Having another one would start to take the piss a little bit. 

Added to that, on a personal note, while I enjoyed the world-building that accompanied the character, I found him genuinely dull. Drink and the Big Man will be just as entertaining without Hop Frog. 

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17 hours ago, ScaledBird said:

After re-watching Preston Jacobs video...

You'll get a lot of flak here for citing Preston Jacobs as a source, just FYI. 

That said, Quentyn's death was witnessed. He's dead as Ned.

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The only way Q could be alive after taking a full blast from a dragon is that he would have to have incredible magical resistance/immunity to fire. So, is there a way to get there?

The only viable path I see is to weigh Dany's supposed resistance (and I stress the word "supposed") and see if it can somehow be applied to Quent. Since we have a pretty definitive statement from GRRM that "there is no Targaryen immunity to fire", that leaves only one other possibility: that any such immunity would come from their shared Dornish heritage.

The Dornish, or at least the Martells, are descended from the Rhoynar, who fought a 250-year war with the Valyrians. So, would it make more sense for the people who control the dragons to have fire resistance in their blood, or the people who are fighting against the dragons? And the Rhoynar were steeped in water magic as well.

So it's sketchy, but that is the only way I can see it being even remotely possible. As for what purpose it would serve to the story, we'll have to wait and see how things progress to answer that question.

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18 hours ago, ScaledBird said:

After re-watching Preston Jacobs

oof

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You'll get a lot of well deserved flak here for citing Preston Jacobs as a source, just FYI. 

I had to fix it for you 

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

That said, Quentyn's death was witnessed. He's dead as Ned.

Or zed 

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19 hours ago, ScaledBird said:

Defiantly watch Preston Jacobs video... I would recommend all of them. I dont find I agree with all of them, but they do make me rethink a lot of what I thought making each re-read more fun.

There is a reason Preston isn't loved on this forum - and that's because his stuff is: lots of smoke and mirrors with faulty logic for foundation, fallacy chasing fallacy, assuming stuff not in books and ignoring stuff in the books. But, he sells his stuff well, if people don't take time to actually dissect his argument.

He's the guy who tried to sell you a set of perfectly average pots & pans for two thousand bucks. His sales technique relies on you not having that "Hey, wait a minute!" moment.

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29 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

He's the guy who tried to sell you a set of perfectly average pots & pans for two thousand bucks. His sales technique relies on you not having that "Hey, wait a minute!" moment.

Somebody gave (re-gifted?) us a set of those pots and pans as a housewarming gift. Those are actually pretty damn good, not perfectly average. Worth the price? Hell, no, but quite a bit better than average. I worked in housewares for several years in an earlier life, so I know a bit about the subject.

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I do admit the body seems a little...crispy for someone burnt by dragon fire at such a short distance. It should probably been a bit more melty. And Quentyn's companions acted a little differently to how I thought they would. 

However for any theory to be viable it much add something to the themes or narrative. Do you think it adds to either of those in some way? If so how? 

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It has also been pointed out that Marwyn is notably absent - either because he was not planning to go to Dany yet, or because he means well to her, or because he's the one manipulating the prophesy to his benefit. - There was a thread about this but unfortunately, I have forgotten most of it.

 

Does anyone else remember who was the first person to utter Marwyn's name in the entire tale?

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VII

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. "A maester?"

"Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech."

"A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?"

Yup, it was Mirri Maz Duur...

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