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Daenerys Webber and Stannis Osgrey [TSS Spoilers]


Ckram

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"Webber, you nurse claims to lands lost in Westeros."

The Windblown, Dance 25

Webber was short and muscular, with spiders tattooed across his head and chest and arms.

Daenerys VI, Dance 43

It was a grant of rights, ser. To Lord Wyman Webber, from the king. For his leal service in the late rebellion, Lord Wyman and his descendants were granted all rights to the Chequy Water, from where it rises in the Horseshoe Hills to the shores of Leafy Lake. It also said that Lord Wyman and his descendants should have the right to take red deer and boar and rabbits in Wats Wood wheneer it pleased them, and to cut twenty trees from the wood each year. The boy cleared his throat. The grant was only for a time, though. The paper said that if Ser Eustace were to die without a male heir of his body, Standfast would revert to the crown, and Lord Webbers privileges would end.

The Sworn Sword

So, there is a chance the old Webber-Osgrey relationship might come into play. Maybe the Windblown Webber is a descendant of cousin Wendel who lost his chance to take Coldmoat when Dunk killed Lucas and Eustace wed Rohanne. If Webber had a child with Eustace (actually Dunk's bastard???) then Coldmoat could be held by House Osgrey. Assuming Osgrey will (unknowingly) side with the Black Dragon once again and the Windblown will side with Daenerys, this sets up another confrontation between Webber and Osgrey.

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Nice theory, I like it!

It brings a whole new meaning to this if it's Stannis.

Quote
"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?"

Oh, Stannis if only you had any idea...

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21 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Staenerys crackship

I try not to be mistaken for someone defending the marriage of Daenerys and Stannis. I am not saying that they should, that it is necessary or that it will be better for the realm. I'm just saying, "Hey, look at these characters in TSS. They solved their feud with a marriage. Don't they remind you of anyone in ASOIAF? Isn't Martin here saying he's going to marry them?"

21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Pawn to player - they've made me a Lannister Sansa. And starting out with a tower and a stream, five husbands later Rohanne Lady of the West Lannister is the original player.

Rohanne's authority didn't begin with the feud with Osgrey. Septon Sefton reports that she was feared for events that preceded the dam issue. In fact, we have no information about how docile she was when Wyamn was alive, but the fact that he had left a will with a term and a sanction to force her to marry gives a hint of how he saw her.

The fact that Wyman had managed to marry her four times does not speak for itself, for after all, in two of them Rohanne was less than 13yo and we do not know Rohanne's age at later marriages or how she felt about them. An interesting fact is that, regarding marriages, Rohanne has more similarities with Daenerys (3) than with Sansa (2), if I may:

ROHANNE: Got married at 10yo (unconsummated). SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Not.
ROHANNE: Widow at 10yo. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Not.
ROHANNE: Got married at 13yo. SANSA: Got married at 13yo (unconsummated). DAENERYS: Got married at 13yo.
ROHANNE: Twice a widow at ~13yo. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Widow at 14yo.
ROHANNE: Baby dies 3 days after birth. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Stillborn.
    (lacking reliable information to make subsequent parallels)

Finally, although I disagree, I appreciate you stayed on topic.

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13 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Eustace didn't have much to offer but more land/closure. Remember rhoanne loved his son. Their marriage also stops any future bad blood against them.

Eustace's lands weren't that valuable, as we have seen throughout TSS. Rohanne's affair with Adam was the core of her rage against Eustace. Rohanne had 3 times more men than Eustace, she invaded his lands to capture one of the Osgrey men and then executed him. She doesn't seem to fear Eustace in any way.

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

<snip>

If everything happen as you say, chances are Daenerys isn't going to wed Stannis. 

However it's very difficult to determine the chain of events of the chapters of a particular character, especially when we are talking about a non-POV or secondary character (even harder if you look them through the prophetical glass). For instance, I believe that when reading ACOK we did not have many clues that Stannis would be on the Wall in the next book, just as when reading ASOS there was no way to predict that Tywin would be killed. Of course, unless you're some cheating R'hllorist.

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, there is a chance the old Webber-Osgrey relationship might come into play. Maybe the Windblown Webber is a descendant of cousin Wendel who lost his chance to take Coldmoat when Dunk killed Lucas and Eustace wed Rohanne. If Webber had a child with Eustace (actually Dunk's bastard???) then Coldmoat could be held by House Osgrey. Assuming Osgrey will (unknowingly) side with the Black Dragon once again and the Windblown will side with Daenerys, this sets up another confrontation between Webber and Osgrey.

Maybe.

But it's worth noting that Daenerys and Aegon are currently in the same side (Illyrio's) and have no reason for hostility. On the other hand, to presume that Windblown Webber is a descendant of Wendel who wants to defy some Eustace descendant is as valid as to presume he isn't. Eustace may have died without heirs and Wendel inherited Coldmoat, otherwise Rohanne wouldn't have to marry again. You see, I think that marrying an heir of a major house seems to have more appeal to a widow when she is at risk than when she is covered. 

Besides, we must remember Rohanne didn't count on Gerold courtship even when she was desperate for an reasonable suitor in TSS. So, some unexpected event must have changed his mind in order to make this arrangement seem feasable. Or maybe it was that Rohanne, seeing that he wouldn't come to her aid, decided to go to him for help and ended up getting married.

There are many options, but I just think that saying that the immediate link between TSS and ASOIAF is to provide background for a subtle symmetrical antagonism in the new Dance of Dragons seems very unfruitful to me. I think we already have plenty of those in ASOIAF.

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Currently she doesn't, @Bloodraven's Spider. That's why I made clear that the purpose of this thread wasn't try to convince anyone that I have found the reasons why they should marry. I can't find any hint in ASOIAF that she'll need him either.

However, GRRM has outlined in TSS characters whose personal and political are quite similar to those of Daenerys and Stannis and solved their feud by marrying them. The main distinction between these two conflicts is that Rohanne desperatly needed a husband but she refused the the most willing ones and had no hope that the best one (Gerold Lannister) was that interested in her. So, in an surprising and sudden movement she marries her antagonist, and GRRM sells us this outcome as a kind of closure (since no word is heard of the its consequences in "The Mistery Knight").

Nevertheless, If anyone looks closely, would notice that actually marrying Osgrey was a lousy, non-strategic choice (if she did it in good faith, of course). Eustace was old, stigmatized as a traitor, and his House had lost its seat because it had displeased a past Targaryen King (Maegor). When Rohanne married him, she not only lost her lands but empowered an enemy of the Crown. If she did not have a good plan up her sleeve (whether to manipulate Eustace or to kill him - thus circumventing the rule laid down in her father's will), the move served only to fuel the intrigues of neighbors and rejected suitors. And yet, the Red Widow did wed a vassal of the Black Dragon.

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  • 8 months later...

I was rereading ADWD and found this:

"… such a beautiful rite," the queen was saying. "I could feel our lord's fiery gaze upon us. Oh, you cannot know how many times I have begged Stannis to let us be wed again, a true joining of body and spirit blessed by the Lord of Light. I know that I could give His Grace more children if we were bound in fire." (ADWD, Jon X)

This means Stannis is not considered married in the eyes of his own new religion?

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On 3/2/2018 at 12:10 AM, Ckram said:

I try not to be mistaken for someone defending the marriage of Daenerys and Stannis. I am not saying that they should, that it is necessary or that it will be better for the realm. I'm just saying, "Hey, look at these characters in TSS. They solved their feud with a marriage. Don't they remind you of anyone in ASOIAF? Isn't Martin here saying he's going to marry them?"

Rohanne's authority didn't begin with the feud with Osgrey. Septon Sefton reports that she was feared for events that preceded the dam issue. In fact, we have no information about how docile she was when Wyamn was alive, but the fact that he had left a will with a term and a sanction to force her to marry gives a hint of how he saw her.

The fact that Wyman had managed to marry her four times does not speak for itself, for after all, in two of them Rohanne was less than 13yo and we do not know Rohanne's age at later marriages or how she felt about them. An interesting fact is that, regarding marriages, Rohanne has more similarities with Daenerys (3) than with Sansa (2), if I may:

 ROHANNE: Got married at 10yo (unconsummated). SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Not.
ROHANNE: Widow at 10yo. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Not.
ROHANNE: Got married at 13yo. SANSA: Got married at 13yo (unconsummated). DAENERYS: Got married at 13yo.
ROHANNE: Twice a widow at ~13yo. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Widow at 14yo.
ROHANNE: Baby dies 3 days after birth. SANSA: Not. DAENERYS: Stillborn.
    (lacking reliable information to make subsequent parallels)

Finally, although I disagree, I appreciate you stayed on topic.

If Daenerys marries Stannis with Rohanne and Eustace as foreshadowing. Will Daenerys remarry after her marriage to Stannis? 

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12 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If Daenerys marries Stannis with Rohanne and Eustace as foreshadowing. Will Daenerys remarry after her marriage to Stannis? 

They could. But notice I'm not saying Rohanne foreshadows Daenerys, or Stannis foreshadows Eustace. I'm saying the outcome of the dam crisis foreshadows the solution of an eventual Daenerys-Stannis crisis.

11 hours ago, Daendrew said:

GRRM said he came up with a new twist that will make readers go crazy. This might be it.

Might, if he said it before he started working on TSS. If it was after, then I think he didn't have in mind Stannis and Daenerys when was he was writing about the Osgrey-Webber dam crisis.

I guess.

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19 hours ago, Ckram said:

Why?

He is yet unmarried, and a suitable match despite him having killed her father.

 

Currently with Cersei's downfall & Kevan's murder he pretty much becomes head of his House.  Though last we heard from him is in the Riverlands where he just left his army behind & is heading into danger.

Tommen would have to abdicate and become Lord of Storms End

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I see the story of the Little Lion, Ser Wilbert Osgrey, where a king coming down from the north, Lancel V, threatens the kingdom of the Reach when the King of the Reach is fighting east against the Storm King. The "Little Lion" kills the king in single combat at the cost of his own life. 

I think Tyrion would be the "Little Lion," and Stannis being the king (descended from the Storm Kings) who invades from the north while Daenerys is intended to go east for King's Landing. 

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@Irresistable the guy personally executed her father, backstabbing all the Targaryen regime, has a soiled reputation, no lawful heiring rights, and lost his sword hand. Jaime is now a political liability even for the Kingsguard. So I don't see him as a better candidate.

@FireEater that's nice. But the parallels look too scarce. At least, more scarce than those of the theory I presented.

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I love this premise. I have been reading The Sworn Sword lately and have focused on completely different details, so your analysis of the broad parallels among characters is a refreshing perspective. Having skimmed much of this thread, I do see some alternatives and would make a few suggestions.

What if Hizdahr is Dany's Osgrey? In other words, she has already made a marriage for political, diplomatic reasons to resolve a major conflict.

What if Stannis is Dany's Lucas Longinch / Inchfield? Going with the many good pieces of evidence provided by @Lost Melnibonean, the detail that might confirm this parallel is the underwater death for Ser Lucas. Stannis would be the ominous, ugly, old character; the castellan who is sort of occupying Dany's / Rohanne's house (= Westeros / Coldmoat) but who Dany does not want to marry.

If GRRM intends a comparison between or among characters in The Sworn Sword and in Dany's arc, there has to be a Dunk character to act as a catalyst. I would nominate Ser Barristan for this role in Dany's arc, and it does appear that he is in conflict with Hizdahr, which would match the Dunk / Longinch one-on-one combat.

Ser Barristan is strongly linked (through literary details) to Brienne of Tarth, and we know that Brienne is related to Ser Duncan the Tall. Brienne hates Stannis because she holds him responsible for the death of Renly, who she loved.

Actually, as I write this, I am realizing that GRRM probably intends Ser Lucas and Ser Eustace as two sides of the same coin. Very. Important. Connection. So thank you for leading me down this path. (Which means that Hizdahr and Stannis are probably parallels, too.)

I am mindful that Dunk "dies" at the Chequy Water just as he is stabbing Ser Lucas. He drowns but is revived by the Ironborn maester (such an odd combination) who knows how to revive people who drown. Ser Barristan has also died as a member of the King's Guard and is reborn as Ser Arstan Whitebeard before resuming his earlier identity as Ser Barristan. When he shows up as Ser Arstan, he is the world's oldest squire and has a big strong "boss" (who he is really the boss of). Is this a Dunk & Egg parallel?

Brienne has also "died" and been revived (sort of) by Thoros of Myr. Although she has already gained some consciousness after her brutal battles with Rorge and Biter, it is when Thoros feeds her that she truly feels reborn. (And then she dies again when Lady Stoneheart / Lem Lemoncloak / "The Hound" hang her . . . )

Hizdahr's fighting pit is colored like a rainbow, which has a strong link to Renly because of Renly's rainbow guard. There may be a spider / moth comparison between Rohanne and Dany, as Dany hatches from her tokar / cocoon and flies away after Drogon lands in the fighting pit. Rohanne is freed from the web where she was sort of imprisoned and finds she can suddenly cross the Chequy Water to visit the grave of her first love.

I agree with the earlier comment that the Chequy Water could be linked to the "checkered past" of House Osgrey, but I think we have to look at the checker motif (also part of House Osgrey's sigil) as a game of checkers, in keeping with the "Game of Thrones" motif and as a pun on the word "cheek". Recall that Patchface (tied in via the many passages cited by Lost Melnibonean) has checkered cheeks. I believe that Biter biting Brienne's cheek is tied to Renly biting the peach that he first offers to Stannis. Which brings us back to Dany and draws Ser Jorah into this set of comparisons because Ser Jorah gives Dany a peach which she eats and finds very tasty. Hizdahr (or someone close to him) gives Dany poisoned locusts (more of the bug motif?) that are eaten by Strong Belwas (more of the Dunk dying in service to House Osgrey symbolism?).

In addition to a Dunk parallel, I think we would also need to find an Egg parallel in Dany's story, and a catalyst like the Targ signet ring that he hides in his boot. Perhaps not too surprisingly, I wonder whether Tyrion might fill this role? He has poison mushrooms in his boot. In The Sworn Sword, Egg wonders whether the peasants drafted as bannermen for Ser Eustace could teach him about poisons made from local plants.

I am very interested in the "crossing rivers" dilemma faced by a number of characters. It seems that some characters need an empowered crossing-guide or permission to cross bodies of water. You may have hit on a necessary ingredient for Dany to cross the narrow sea and get back to Westeros. Just as Rohanne has to marry the guy on the other side of the Chequy Water, Dany has to marry Hizdahr before she can cross the sea and get back to where she wants to be. (Now that whole set of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" hints in Dany's chapter in the Fighting Pits and her sudden ability to ride Drogon makes even more sense - she is finally able to get back to Kansas, as it were.)

Sorry, this ended up being a jumble of stream of consciousness observations. I'm in a rush. I hope to chequy in again later and will clarify as needed.

 

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