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James Fenimore Cooper XXII

Daenerys is Azor Ahai.

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You know, herring is usually smoked and salted. Stannis is too obvious to be the red herring. Perhaps it's Daenerys? 

Before Dance, we could make the arguments for several characters to be the hidden Azor Ahai reborn. But with the line of Aerys and Rhaella element given to us in Dance, were are left with only three possibilities: Daenerys (whose blood no man can question), Aegon (assuming he is who he thinks he is), and Jon Snow (assuming he is who we think he is). I am assuming, of course, that the George had Barristan tell the reader through Daenerys's point of view that the prince that was promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella for a reason, and that the author wasn't just trolling us. Perhaps he was just trolling us, in which case we can continue to consider all of the other candidates (except Beric :(). But I don't think so. The field is limited to three candidates. 

In Davos I, Clash 10, we first learned about Azor Ahai reborn...

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

So, we have the following elements:

1) After a long summer

2) When the stars bleed

3) The cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world

4) A warrior

5) Draw a burning sword from the fire

A bit later in the chapter, we learn about Lightbringer...

"That sword was not Lightbringer, my friend."

The sudden shift in subject left Davos uneasy. "Sword?"

"A sword plucked from fire, yes. Men tell me things, it is my pleasant smile. How shall a burnt sword serve Stannis?"

"A burning sword," corrected Davos.

"Burnt," said Salladhor Saan, "and be glad of that, my friend. Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

"Now do you see my meaning? Be glad that it is just a burnt sword that His Grace pulled from that fire. Too much light can hurt the eyes, my friend, and fire burns."

There is a lot we can do with the imagery presented with the original forging of Lightbringer, but the essential element is that Azor Ahai reborn must 6) sacrifice that which he loves best of all that is in this world. 

In Davos III, Storm 25, we learn a few more elements...

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!

That's three more elements:

7) Born again amidst smoke

8) Born again amidst salt

9) Wake dragons from stone

In Samwell V, Storm 78, we see Maester Aemon and Melisandre conflate Azor Ahai reborn with the prince that was promised...

"Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

I know that some readers still argue that the prophecies are two distinct prophecies, but after that passage, I cannot agree. This, from Davos IV, Storm 36...

"It means that the battle is begun," said Melisandre. "The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor."

This, from Davos VI, Storm 63...

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you." Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing.

And this, from Jon, XIII, Dance 69...

"A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?"

Show that the prophecies are one and the same, perhaps told from different traditions. 

We first learned of the promised prince in Daenerys IV, Clash 48...

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

But that promise was broken...

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

Daenerys V, Clash 63

Now, obviously, there are little hints all along the way to show that Stannis could be the promised Azor Ahai reborn, but we are presented with even more doubts, and Daenerys does seem to fulfill many of the elements, and then Maester Aemon tells us it is her in Samwell IV, Feast 35...

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

But then, we meet Aegon in Dance, and we wonder whether the promise really was broken. 

A Song of Ice and Fire is not a mystery, it's a fantasy, but it has some mystery characteristics, especially in Game, when Eddard and Catelyn were trying to prove that the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn, but then we learn at the end of Storm, that it was Petyr. Well, a common trope in a mystery is that the culprit is never the obvious suspect. The least obvious of the three suspects here is Jon Snow. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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Obsidian was used in surgery because it makes a clean cut.  However, I would think it's too brittle for use in a weapon that will take impact.  Otherwise, the topic author's main idea is right.

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On 3/3/2018 at 4:52 PM, Megorova said:

his could be NOT a prophecy - "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." - ADWD, Jon X, Melisandre said this to Jon.

Could be that what Melisandre said, is just her own interpretation. Because other people, that were saying something about Long Night, and Azor Ahai, and the Prince that was promised, never mentioned dragons.

So waking dragons from stone, is solely what Melisandre thinks, about what Azor Ahai will do. Though she was wrong, when she thought that Stannis is Azor Ahai. So could be that she's also wrong, about Azor Ahai waking dragons from stone. Could be that she saw in a vision, dragons hatching from stone eggs, and she thought that it will be done by Azor Ahai. But it was done NOT by Azor Ahai.

Melisandre was wrong MANY times. Stannis is not Azor Ahai, the girl on dying horse was not Arya, Battle of Blackwater's Bay was a failure, etc.

Here is what Aemon has to say about Mel and her knowledge of prophecy (AFFC-Chapter 35):

Quote

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy ... my brother's dream ... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis ... Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it ... their father's mother ... she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remember that, so allowed myself to hope ... perhaps I wanted to ... we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamor ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope.

What Aemon is saying here is that Mel understands the prophecy as well as anyone who has studied it, but she is fooling herself by what she wants to believe. So our known in story expert, Aemon, says Mel definitely knows the prophecy as well as him. Therefore, while there can still be considerable debate over what the prophecy means, we can take Mel's recitations of the prophecy as accurate and correct.

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Here is what Aemon has to say about Mel and her knowledge of prophecy (AFFC-Chapter 35):

What Aemon is saying here is that Mel understands the prophecy as well as anyone who has studied it, but she is fooling herself by what she wants to believe. So our known in story expert, Aemon, says Mel definitely knows the prophecy as well as him. Therefore, while there can still be considerable debate over what the prophecy means, we can take Mel's recitations of the prophecy as accurate and correct.

Aemon forgets the part of the legend that says AA's sword didn't have any heat until it was plunged into the heart of the beast:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

I think we are being told that Nissa Nissa is the beast or dragon.  That the sword must be tempered in dragon blood to have any heat.  Which make me wonder if Melisandre herself will become that sacrifice to Stannis' sword.  

She also changes up the prophecy recorded in an ancient book of Asshai (and I'm not sure that Aemon has read that book):

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

I think the bleeding stars refer to the Faith Militant who carve bleeding stars into their chests.

Melisandre believes that Stannis is the warrior of the legend.  So perhaps she thinks she has the wisdom and power to make it happen.  She'll turn Stannis into something in the end but I don't think legends work that way and the warrior of  light and the legendary weapon will turn out to be something  and someone else.  

What surprises me is that Dany and her dragons never seem to cross Melisandre's mind. It's like one big blind spot.  I'm not sure that Dany is the warrior of light either or that Drogon is the flaming sword.  I think she fits the imagery of the crone who carries the lantern or at least that may be the case after she joins the crones at Vaes Dothrak and 'touches the light'.   I think it likely that Dany will fit the forging of the sword as Nissa Nissa's counterpart rather than the warrior who forges the sword.   

Edited by LynnS

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Melisandre believes that Stannis is the warrior of the legend.  So perhaps she thinks she has the wisdom and power to make it happen.  She'll turn Stannis into something in the end but I don't think legends work that way and the warrior of  light and the legendary weapon will turn out to be something  and someone else.  

I believe it will happen like in Mel's mummer version: Lightbringer will be created and Stannis will throw it away and maybe then he will break like Iron. And the interesting part will be who picks up the thrown away red sword of heroes. 

And Mel is right. Stannis will be the warrior. But the warrior is not equal with AA. 

Edited by SirArthur

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41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

Aemon forgets the part of the legend that says AA's sword didn't have any heat until it was plunged into the heart of the beast:

I think we are being told that Nissa Nissa is the beast or dragon.  That the sword must be tempered in dragon blood to have any heat.  Which make me wonder if Melisandre herself will become that sacrifice to Stannis' sword.  

She also changes up the prophecy recorded in an ancient book of Asshai (and I'm not sure that Aemon has read that book):

I think the bleeding stars refer to the Faith Militant who carve bleeding stars into their chests.

Melisandre believes that Stannis is the warrior of the legend.  So perhaps she thinks she has the wisdom and power to make it happen.  She'll turn Stannis into something in the end but I don't think legends work that way and the warrior of  light and the legendary weapon will turn out to be something  and someone else.  

What surprises me is that Dany and her dragons never seem to cross Melisandre's mind. It's like one big blind spot.  I'm not sure that Dany is the warrior of light either or that Drogon is the flaming sword.  I think she fits the imagery of the crone who carries the lantern or at least that may be the case after she joins the crones at Vaes Dothrak and 'touches the light'.   I think it likely that Dany will fit the forging of the sword as Nissa Nissa's counterpart rather than the warrior who forges the sword.   

No, he doesn't forget. He says the sword is not right. Remember, Mel is acting like Stannis has already pulled the sword from the fire. Aemon knows that is not right. As far as the prophecy is concerned, Aemon and Mel are in agreement as to what it says. The quote I provided shows that. Aemon disagrees with Mel's approach to the prophecy.

I think the bleeding stars are falling stars. I don't think the faith militant will be anywhere near when Azor Ahai pulls the sword from the fire. We have been told that Mel has a living fire in her. I'm pretty sure she is the fire the sword will be drawn from. I am pretty sure the sword will be Longclaw. I think this will be Jon, but this is speculation on my part. I believe there will be three people as the three heads with Dany and Jon being two of them. But again, this is my speculation. The only person I can be certain of is Dany, because she has already fulfilled part of the prophecy. Dany is not destined to be a Nissa Nissa figure. She is Azor Ahai who raised dragons from stone (and no one else will do that in this story).

I don't think Mel is very aware of Dany (if at all). We see Jon getting the news and he treats it like a joke (which offends Tycho Nestoris). I don't know if this news was shared with Mel. It appears Dany and her dragons haven't appeared in Mel's fires at all. I think this is because she is being drawn to just one of the heads (Jon), not all of them.

ETA:  I think the Mel is being drawn to Jon because of the living fire within her.

Edited by bent branch

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38 minutes ago, bent branch said:

No, he doesn't forget. He says the sword is not right. Remember, Mel is acting like Stannis has already pulled the sword from the fire. Aemon knows that is not right. As far as the prophecy is concerned, Aemon and Mel are in agreement as to what it says. The quote I provided shows that. Aemon disagrees with Mel's approach to the prophecy.

I think the bleeding stars are falling stars. I don't think the faith militant will be anywhere near when Azor Ahai pulls the sword from the fire. We have been told that Mel has a living fire in her. I'm pretty sure she is the fire the sword will be drawn from. I am pretty sure the sword will be Longclaw. I think this will be Jon, but this is speculation on my part. I believe there will be three people as the three heads with Dany and Jon being two of them. But again, this is my speculation. The only person I can be certain of is Dany, because she has already fulfilled part of the prophecy. Dany is not destined to be a Nissa Nissa figure. She is Azor Ahai who raised dragons from stone (and no one else will do that in this story).

I don't think Mel is very aware of Dany (if at all). We see Jon getting the news and he treats it like a joke (which offends Tycho Nestoris). I don't know if this news was shared with Mel. It appears Dany and her dragons haven't appeared in Mel's fires at all. I think this is because she is being drawn to just one of the heads (Jon), not all of them.

ETA:  I think the Mel is being drawn to Jon because of the living fire within her.

I think Melisandre's approach to waking dragons from stone is quite literal:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

The sword that Sam describes does sound like obsidian or a supercharged glass candle and Melisandre is very familiar with obsidian:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

So according to Quaithe, fire can be drawn from dragonglass.  This might be Melisandre's version of 'waking the dragon' which might explain why Melisandre has no interest in Dany and her dragons.  Melisandre doesn't have any dragon eggs; so what does she mean by waking the great dragon unless she is referring to Stannis.  What we get from her interpretation is that the great dragon is the warrior.

I can't agree that Dany is AA at this point.  Moqorro says she is the 'savior' and usually implies sacrificing yourself.  I think it more likely that Dany will sacrifice herself to give the Warrior the weapon he needs and I think the Warrior's Sons will coalesce around that character whomever it turns out to be.

Edited by LynnS

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On 2/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

  1.  

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my original topic. I have done some more reading and came up with additional ideas on this topic.  Apologies because we have gone to the side of the road and veered to the left of the topic.  But this is still about Dany so I feel it's fine to proceed.  So those old men with the swords of fire.  They were Azor Ahai and the vision doesn't paint a picture of men who were in their primes and the tattered clothes probably meant they had not changed for a long time.  What could make kings wear faded and worn clothing?  The more I think on this and the more I read people's comments the more I refine my original ideas.  The clothes are faded because they were living through the long night!  Lack of food, spare clothing, gaunt, pale.  All point to people who lost civilization.  And their bespoke tailors!  

So if Azor Ahai won, why did the long night last so long?  Answer: He didn't win.  History is often wrong so why not legends.  Those Azor Ahais could not turn back the darkness.  They had to wait it out until the long night passed.  This is consistent with Nan's story of a night that lasted for a lifetime.  They also killed their wives. Due to insanity or maybe just like in Nan's story of the mother's smothering their babies to spare them from suffering.  Dany smothered Drogo to spare him from suffering.  

I don't have much to base this on except the post "Targaryen Madness Is An Exaggeration" and 'Will Jon Snow Go Mad?" posts.  I believe those kings went mad.  They were the ancestors of the Targaryens and they were all Azor Ahai.  They went mad.  Male Targaryens are susceptible to madness.  Think about this.  Madness can't be common among the 40 ruling families of old Valyria.  So just maybe it's not a Valyrian thing, it's a Targaryen family curse.  Call it genetics.  Whatever the case may be, many male Targaryens go mad.  

What is their interest in our young hero?  They were cheering Dany on like a squad of retired male cheerleaders.  Run, run away from the darkness.  Wake, wake the dragon.  They were encouraging Dany because she is the only hope to defeat the long night.  Why?  Because she's the first female Azor Ahai.  She's not susceptible to madness.   Azor Ahai is now female and she has three dragons.  She is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The prophecy used the word "prince" and it has been explained because dragons are gender neutral.  But we have to remember, the prophesied person comes before the dragons.  The word choice is not "prince' because dragons are gender neutral but because all the other Azor Ahais before were male.  But this time around is different and this is the game changer that everyone has been waiting for.  AA is born a female this time and instead of a magic sword she has three dragons!  English is not my strongest point so I am not getting my ideas across as well as I would like.  But I believe those old guys were AAs of ancient times, they lost the battle for the long night, they murdered their wives because they went insane, they only had swords to fight with, they have been waiting all this time for the Prince Who Was Promised, they needed a female AA to avoid the madness, they needed a female to hatch dragons, and that female Azor Ahai is Daenerys.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145805-targaryen-madness-is-an-exaggeration/

 

On 2/27/2018 at 10:10 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

How interesting.  The biggest clue for Dany being AA is the hatching of the dragon eggs.  She literally woke dragons from stone.  Which was foretold in the prophecy. 

Correct, and it had to happen right about the time when the red comet was in the sky.  The requirements are very specific and Dany fulfilled them.  Hence, she is Azor Ahai.  

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Melisandre's approach to waking dragons from stone is quite literal:

The sword that Sam describes does sound like obsidian or a supercharged glass candle and Melisandre is very familiar with obsidian:

So according to Quaithe, fire can be drawn from dragonglass.  This might be Melisandre's version of 'waking the dragon' which might explain why Melisandre has no interest in Dany and her dragons.  Melisandre doesn't have any dragon eggs; so what does she mean by waking the great dragon unless she is referring to Stannis.  What we get from her interpretation is that the great dragon is the warrior.

I can't agree that Dany is AA at this point.  Moqorro says she is the 'savior' and usually implies sacrificing yourself.  I think it more likely that Dany will sacrifice herself to give the Warrior the weapon he needs and I think the Warrior's Sons will coalesce around that character whomever it turns out to be.

Okay. I don't really agree with anything you've said, but I can't really say it is wrong either. The only thing I will really take exception to is the idea that the word savior implies sacrificing yourself. If you are talking about Jesus Christ the Savior, then there is an implication of self-sacrifice. Otherwise the word savior only implies someone who saves or rescues something.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What surprises me is that Dany and her dragons never seem to cross Melisandre's mind. It's like one big blind spot.  I'm not sure that Dany is the warrior of light either or that Drogon is the flaming sword.  I think she fits the imagery of the crone who carries the lantern or at least that may be the case after she joins the crones at Vaes Dothrak and 'touches the light'.   I think it likely that Dany will fit the forging of the sword as Nissa Nissa's counterpart rather than the warrior who forges the sword.   

Didn't folks in Westeros only begin learning of the reality of the dragons in Feast and Dance? Doran might have been first. I'm not so sure Melisandre would have learned of this after Stannis left Dragonstone for the Wall. 

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20 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Okay. I don't really agree with anything you've said, but I can't really say it is wrong either. The only thing I will really take exception to is the idea that the word savior implies sacrificing yourself. If you are talking about Jesus Christ the Savior, then there is an implication of self-sacrifice. Otherwise the word savior only implies someone who saves or rescues something.

I don't have a problem if you don't agree.  I don't expect people to agree with me most of the time.  LOL!  I'm just trying to put myself into Melisandre's character to make of some sense out of why she does the things she does.   Although I do think GRRM is mining his catholicism with respect to saviors .  In particular Bran who is essentially chained to a tree or a cross.  The same with Dany.  Ultimately she will have to sacrifice her own life to save others.

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29 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Correct, and it had to happen right about the time when the red comet was in the sky.  The requirements are very specific and Dany fulfilled them.  Hence, she is Azor Ahai.  

So it would seem. Just keep in mind as you follow that red comet down the most apparent trail that herring is most often smoked and salted, unless of course you prefer it raw like the Dutch, ja? 

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7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Didn't folks in Westeros only begin learning of the reality of the dragons in Feast and Dance? Doran might have been first. I'm not so sure Melisandre would have learned of this after Stannis left Dragonstone for the Wall. 

Yah, I can't believe she doesn't know about it. I expect if she asked to see them in the fire, that she would.  It's not top of mind for her for some reason.

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Just now, LynnS said:

Yah, I can't believe she doesn't know about it. I expect if she asked to see them in the fire, that she would.  It's not top of mind for her for some reason.

She has asked to see the promised prince...

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I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. 

Melisandre, Dance 31

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that Dany is the warrior of light either or that Drogon is the flaming sword.  I think she fits the imagery of the crone who carries the lantern or at least that may be the case after she joins the crones at Vaes Dothrak and 'touches the light'.

The light that she needs to touch is in Asshai's Shadow, not in Vaes Dothrak.

First she went to east to Meeren, to eventually be able to go west to Westeros. Because in Meereen she will get her fleet, to sail her armies to Westeros. Then to return back to Meereen, to go south, she had to go north, to Vaes Dothrak. So after Vaes Dothrak she will return to Meereen. And then to touch the light she needs to pass beneath the shadow, that's in Asshai in Shadow Lands.

So that light is probably either in R'hllor's temple, where was forged first Lightbringer, or that light is a control panel of alien spaceship, that is hanging in the sky above Asshai in stealth mode, casting huge shadow on lands underneath. On that spaceship first dragons and their masters came to Planetos. And currently on that spaceship is working terraforming device, that affects natural flow of seasons on the planet. Maybe.

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52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The light that she needs to touch is in Asshai's Shadow, not in Vaes Dothrak.

She's been touched by the shadow:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. "The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah," she told him. The knight made no reply. Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

I suspect that the cure is to touch the light:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

I don't think this is Asshai where GRRM has said she will not go; but rather the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains - where she is currently heading:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The wild stallion's heart was all muscle, and Dany had to worry it with her teeth and chew each mouthful a long time. No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains; she had to rip the heart apart with teeth and nails. Her stomach roiled and heaved, yet she kept on, her face smeared with the heartsblood that sometimes seemed to explode against her lips.

Where I expect this part of her vision in the House of Undying will unfold in some way:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them .

 

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She has asked to see the promised prince...

Melisandre, Dance 31

Yes, I can see Jon being raised by fire and he's been marked as R'hllor's instrument - his fiery hand.  It wouldn't surprise me if Jon ends up with the Dawn sword.

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where I expect this part of her vision in the House of Undying will unfold in some way:

Yes, that will happen. Probably after Dany will kill Dothraki khals, for kidnapping her baby, and she will burn all of them with dragonfire, second fire that she must light - the one for death.

Most likely her son is in Vaes Dothrak. Though there is still something in Asshai. Because when Dany asked Quaithe what's in Asshai, she said - the truth. So to touch the light may be reference to finding out truth about her child, or maybe truth about what is causing Second Long Night, and origin of the Others. So Rhaego could be either in Vaes Dothrak, or in Asshai.

Though I think that most likely, he is in Vaes Dothrak. Because he will become second dragonrider. Based on this:

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Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her…as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.”

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She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.

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She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away…yet she was unhurt.

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin.

Green egg was always second. Taken into bed second, placed on funeral pyre second, hatched second. Thus Rhaegel will get his rider also second, after Drogon.

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On 2018-3-4 at 1:10 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not Azor Ahai because he will not be coming back.  At least not in the form of a man.  He may come back as a dog in the form of Ghost but he is not coming back as a man.  Good old Bowen made sure of that.  I'm not even sure that Jon will come back as a dog.  Bowen Marsh and the guys will find Ghost and finish him off too.  

 

LOL! I totally agree. Jon will be a resurrected corpse and I very much doubt that he survives in the end or that he is the savior of the world. I have not seen Jon as such an important character for the end of the story.

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On 2018-2-27 at 10:56 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

  1.  

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my original topic. I have done some more reading and came up with additional ideas on this topic.  Apologies because we have gone to the side of the road and veered to the left of the topic.  But this is still about Dany so I feel it's fine to proceed.  So those old men with the swords of fire.  They were Azor Ahai and the vision doesn't paint a picture of men who were in their primes and the tattered clothes probably meant they had not changed for a long time.  What could make kings wear faded and worn clothing?  The more I think on this and the more I read people's comments the more I refine my original ideas.  The clothes are faded because they were living through the long night!  Lack of food, spare clothing, gaunt, pale.  All point to people who lost civilization.  And their bespoke tailors!  

So if Azor Ahai won, why did the long night last so long?  Answer: He didn't win.  History is often wrong so why not legends.  Those Azor Ahais could not turn back the darkness.  They had to wait it out until the long night passed.  This is consistent with Nan's story of a night that lasted for a lifetime.  They also killed their wives. Due to insanity or maybe just like in Nan's story of the mother's smothering their babies to spare them from suffering.  Dany smothered Drogo to spare him from suffering.  

I don't have much to base this on except the post "Targaryen Madness Is An Exaggeration" and 'Will Jon Snow Go Mad?" posts.  I believe those kings went mad.  They were the ancestors of the Targaryens and they were all Azor Ahai.  They went mad.  Male Targaryens are susceptible to madness.  Think about this.  Madness can't be common among the 40 ruling families of old Valyria.  So just maybe it's not a Valyrian thing, it's a Targaryen family curse.  Call it genetics.  Whatever the case may be, many male Targaryens go mad.  

What is their interest in our young hero?  They were cheering Dany on like a squad of retired male cheerleaders.  Run, run away from the darkness.  Wake, wake the dragon.  They were encouraging Dany because she is the only hope to defeat the long night.  Why?  Because she's the first female Azor Ahai.  She's not susceptible to madness.   Azor Ahai is now female and she has three dragons.  She is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The prophecy used the word "prince" and it has been explained because dragons are gender neutral.  But we have to remember, the prophesied person comes before the dragons.  The word choice is not "prince' because dragons are gender neutral but because all the other Azor Ahais before were male.  But this time around is different and this is the game changer that everyone has been waiting for.  AA is born a female this time and instead of a magic sword she has three dragons!  English is not my strongest point so I am not getting my ideas across as well as I would like.  But I believe those old guys were AAs of ancient times, they lost the battle for the long night, they murdered their wives because they went insane, they only had swords to fight with, they have been waiting all this time for the Prince Who Was Promised, they needed a female AA to avoid the madness, they needed a female to hatch dragons, and that female Azor Ahai is Daenerys.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145805-targaryen-madness-is-an-exaggeration/

It is known!
 

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