Jump to content
James Fenimore Cooper XXII

Daenerys is Azor Ahai.

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

:agree:

And if Rhaego is alive? Don't you think, that if he is alive, then he is the third head?

Just think about it - Jon and Rhaego, even though there's a big age difference between them, both of them are grandsons of Aerys and Rhaella.

Aerys + Rhaella = Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon

Aerys + Rhaella = Dany + Drogo = Rhaego

Jon was raised by his Stark relatives, so isn't it possible, that GRRM has used the same formula with Rhaego, and thus he is being raised by his Dothaki relatives, and thus his kidnapping is the treason for blood, predicted to Dany by the Undying. No?

When did the Ghost of High Heart say that the three heads of the dragon are the promised prince or Azor Ahai reborn? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I understand the argument that Azor Ahai reborn and the promised prince are conflated (and I agree with it), but I don't see why we should assume that the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon constitute that hero or heroine. 

For one I don't see why Rhaegar has anything in particular to do with it. As for why the dragon is the Prince/Ahai is because of something Aemon in his final days when he identified the Prince. He more or less equates the two when he identifies Daenerys and speaks about the gender of dragons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

For one I don't see why Rhaegar has anything in particular to do with it. As for why the dragon is the Prince/Ahai is because of something Aemon in his final days when he identified the Prince. He more or less equates the two when he identifies Daenerys and speaks about the gender of dragons. 

I refer to it as the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon simply because the vision of him that Daenerys saw was the one that told us about the dragon having three heads. 

Can you quote the text where Aegon equates the three heads of the dragon to the promised prince or AA reborn? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I refer to it as the three heads of Rhaegar's dragon simply because the vision of him that Daenerys saw was the one that told us about the dragon having three heads. 

Can you quote the text where Aegon equates the three heads of the dragon to the promised prince or AA reborn? 

"No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Sam, Feast for Crows

So, basically dragon and prince/princess is the same thing, or the same word in Valyria. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

"No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Sam, Feast for Crows

So, basically dragon and prince/princess is the same thing, or the same word in Valyria. 

George Martin was asked to pick the characters he would most like to sit down to dinner with and converse.  He chose Maester Aemon, for his extensive knowledge.  Also, he chose Daenerys for her beauty.  Aemon believes Daenerys is the chosen one, Daenerys is the chosen one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 12/3/2018 at 7:48 PM, Empress Daenerys Targaryen said:

Lightbringer can also refer to the glass candles.  Like lamps they chase away the darkness.  They provide light when the sun hid its face for years.  The telling of the story over time got the meaning distorted.   Lightbringer can be applied to dragons and glass candles.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai, proven when she brought those dragons back from extinction.  Something which no other Targaryen has been able to do.  Which makes her special.  

Those kings in her dreams were not the kings of Westeros.  They go way back in time.   The climate changes are cyclical but they appear to random to the short lives of man.  The lack of science make the past a mystery.  They were the Azor Ahai of their own times.  They failed to force the climate to shift because that is beyond the power of man.  They lived and suffered through the Long Night with their subjects.  The swords they hold are not actual blades but instead are glass candles.

And that is why they have been waiting for her for so long.  The Promised Prince(ss).  What Aegon V tried to do, to force the prophecy and bring her into the world during his time, ended badly for him.  Prophecy will happen on its own time.   Aegon V wanted more power to push through his social reforms but I've a feeling the prophecy is about something much bigger than the politics of Westeros.  It is about the birth of someone who will be the agent of change in much of the known world.  She has a larger role to play that goes beyond Westeros.  It may involve what many of us are hoping for, the rise of a New Valyria.  

Edited by Silver Bullet 1985

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

"No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Sam, Feast for Crows

So, basically dragon and prince/princess is the same thing, or the same word in Valyria. 

Ah, I see what your getting at... your suggesting that based on Aemon's translation of the Vayrian word for prince and dragon, Rhaegar might have said, "The prince has three heads," right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ah, I see what your getting at... your suggesting that based on Aemon's translation of the Vayrian word for prince and dragon, Rhaegar might have said, "The prince has three heads," right? 

Pretty much. Considering that after Dany, Jon has as well been showing signs of being the "chosen one", the easiest way to reconcile them is if both Jon and Dany are. This correlation allows that and furthermore stipulates that we are looking for one more. Since both Jon and Dany are descended from Aerys and Rhaella, it stands to reason that the third head will be as well.

Though it is not definite. Obviously not all elements of the prophecy will apply to all three heads. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

When did the Ghost of High Heart say that the three heads of the dragon are the promised prince or Azor Ahai reborn? 

What @The Sleeper said - dragon and prince/princess is the same word in Valyrian.

Furthermore Melisandre was referring to Azor Ahai, but also saying about Stannis, that he is the Prince that was promised. Melisandre came from Asshai, which is the source of the prophecy about AA and Second Long Night. She said to Davos, that this prophecy is 5000 years old. After reading that prophecy, Melisandre came to Dragonstone, and said that Stannis is TPTWP. So my guess, is that something in the text of the prophecy, or in one of Mel's fire-visions, made her think, that AA/TPTWP is at Dragonstone, and that this person is a carrier of Targaryen genes. Officially after Rhaegar's and Aerys' death, Stannis was the Prince of Dragonstone, and Robert's heir. Besides Dany and Viserys (that were far away from Dragonstone, thus, by Mel's opinion, those two didn't fit into the criterias of the prophecy), in Westeros there was only several people, that were descendants of Targaryens (with more or less pure blood) - Robert, Stannis, and Renly. And because out of the three of them, Stannis was the Prince of Dragonstone, Melisandre thought, that he is the one - Azor Ahai reborn and the promised Prince.

So it's not like someone in the books specifically said, that AA and TPTWP is the same person, but it was implied.

Also the threeheaded dragon on Targaryen banner is representing Aegon and his two sister-wives, Rhaenys and Visenya. So Targaryen dragon is actually three people. One of one gender (in the middle), and two of opposite gender (on the sides) (in order of birth):

1. Rhaenys - Aegon - Visenya.

2. Jon - Dany - Rhaego.

Because Dany is a female, their order is reversed - Jon is Dany's Visenya, and Rhaego is Rhaenys, in reverse.

18 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Rhaego's dead, his life consumed for the dragons to live.

No, it didn't. Really. Read again thru Dany IX and X - there was three eggs, and three sacrifices - Drogo, stallion under funeral pyre, and Mirri Maz Duur.

There was TWO horses. Drogo's stallion was sacrificed to make him stay alive. And second stallion was killed, and Drogo's funeral pyre was build around dead carcass of that horse. Drogo's life paid for Drogon (black egg was placed on funeral pyre first out of three, Drogo died first out of three sacrifices, Drogon first got himself a rider, but black egg has hatched the last out of three); stallion's life paid for Rhaegel (green and bronze egg was placed on funeral pyre second, funeral pyre stallion has died second; Rhaegel will get himself a rider, when Dany and Rhaego will reunite in Vaes Dothrak; this egg has hatched second); Mirri's life has paid for Viseryon (white egg was placed on funeral pyre the last, Mirri has died the last; Viseryon will get a rider the last out of three dragons, because Dany and Rhaego are both in Essos, but Jon, the third dragonrider, is in Westeros, so Viseryon will meet Jon, only after Dany and Rhaego will go to Westeros; white egg has hatched first out of three, because out of three blood sacrifices, the life that has paid for Viseryon, was the freshest out of three - Mirri was the only one out of three, that has died from being burned alive).

Three dragon eggs/three sacrifices - Drogon/Drogo, Rhaegel/second stallion, Viseryon/Mirri Maz Duur. Bodies of those three - Drogo, Mirri and the stallion - were on funeral pyre, but Rhaego's body WASN'T there. So how is he a sacrifice, if he or his body wasn't there? :huh: Don't you see a problem here? -> Why people are disregarding the body of a dead horse, that was burning under Drogo's funeral pyre, and don't count it as a sacrifice, while Rhaego, WHO WASN'T EVEN THERE, somehow is supposedly a sacrifice? That's illogical.

My theory, that Rhaego is alive, is based on facts.

1. His body/remnants were not on funeral pyre (Mirri has said, that his body "melted"), thus his life didn't paid for Dany's dragons; 2. There's no body, so there's no evidence, that the child is dead; 3. Besides Mirri, no one else saw Rhaego's birth, so what she's saying about what happened to him, that he was born a dead and ugly monster, and then his body has decomposed, can't be confirmed by anyone else.

So everyone thinks, that Rhaego is dead, solely based on words of Mirri Maz Duur. But it's not like she couldn't have lied to Dany, or didn't had a reason to lie.

While the ritual was still in the process, Dothraki didn't went into Drogo's tent, NO ONE, including Dany's handmaids. The only people, that were inside are Mirri (a liar), Drogo (half-dead), Dany (delusional, and probably drugged with milk of the poppy - i.e. opium, which causes hallucinations), and Jorah (who has brought Dany in, and then either went away, to take care of his own wounds, or lost consciousness because of pain and bloodloss). The process of childbirth, especially if it's the first baby, is lasting for many hours. So it's totally not possible, that Jorah was there, beside Dany, thru all that time, while she was giving birth to Rhaego. When Dany has woken up, Jorah wasn't with her. And her handmaids came into Drogo's tent, only on the next morning, after the baby was already born, and kidnapped. So no one saw, beside Mirri (a liar), what actually happened to Rhaego.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2018 at 12:05 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The swords of pale fire baffled me.  Pale fire looks like electric light.  Light that does not come from a flame, which is yellow fire.  The glass candles may not be lanterns at all but weapons.  If the original story was inspired by the lord of rings then why not a weapon that glows when the enemy is nearby.  In this case, when the enemy is stirring.  Dany is Azor Ahai and she will end up owning a glass candle before the end of this story.  Think about this.  A sword that drives away the darkness.  The darkness fled before the sword.  The glass candles are burning bright and only light drives away the darkness.  It is not a sword but to the ancients, anything long, pointed, and used against an enemy is a sword.  I think George Martin is being cute here.   Maybe he's a Star Wars fan.  Glass Candle = Light + Sword = Lightsaber = lights the darkness = Lightbringer.  Or think of it as a big flashlight.  Dany is not a swordsman but she can wield a glass candle to light the darkness ahead.

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime and Cercei, fathered by the mad king, qualify by blood.   That means the three heads are Jeofrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.   This won't work out.  Cercei will blame Jaime for that.  So he'll stab her and become Azor: The Next Generation.   Jaime. Stormy. Snow.  The finalized heads.  Now all we need is for someone to tell us what the frick 3 heads do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2018 at 5:53 PM, Annalee said:

That Daenerys is Azor Ahai, I agree.  She is Azor Ahai.

I don't agree that the long night and the white walkers can be defeated.  Nature always wins versus man in George Martin's stories.  The fungus won the battle versus the men of greywater station.  The mud pots were winning versus man.  The long night will last until the climate shifts again.  A light stick is not going to change that.  The people will have to migrate out of Westeros to survive.  Dany is not coming to Westeros.  Westeros is coming to Dany.  Isn't it convenient to have empty cities like Vaes Toloro and Asshai?  Empty cities just waiting to be repopulated.  Dany will build her own empire in Essos and the people coming from Westeros will be part of that empire.

I would like for the Westerosi to migrate to Essos too.  The west should be left to the Children and the WW.  Humans do not belong there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/28/2018 at 12:05 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The swords of pale fire baffled me.  Pale fire looks like electric light.  Light that does not come from a flame, which is yellow fire.  The glass candles may not be lanterns at all but weapons.  If the original story was inspired by the lord of rings then why not a weapon that glows when the enemy is nearby.  In this case, when the enemy is stirring.  Dany is Azor Ahai and she will end up owning a glass candle before the end of this story.  Think about this.  A sword that drives away the darkness.  The darkness fled before the sword.  The glass candles are burning bright and only light drives away the darkness.  It is not a sword but to the ancients, anything long, pointed, and used against an enemy is a sword.  I think George Martin is being cute here.   Maybe he's a Star Wars fan.  Glass Candle = Light + Sword = Lightsaber = lights the darkness = Lightbringer.  Or think of it as a big flashlight.  Dany is not a swordsman but she can wield a glass candle to light the darkness ahead.

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Dragon has three heads and therefore Azor Ahai is three people.

Daenerys was the first, manifesting through the sacrifice of her son.

Tyrion was the second, manifesting through the sacrifice of his father.

And Jon will be the third, and will manifest through the sacrifice that will resurrect him from death. Not sure yet whose sacrifice that will be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2018 at 9:34 PM, Trillanes said:

George Martin was asked to pick the characters he would most like to sit down to dinner with and converse.  He chose Maester Aemon, for his extensive knowledge.  Also, he chose Daenerys for her beauty.  Aemon believes Daenerys is the chosen one, Daenerys is the chosen one.

Aemon realized the truth but it was too late.  He didn't make it to Meereen.  Too bad.  Maybe Marwyn will arrive safely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, interesting that Mellisandre’s visions lead her from Essos to everywhere from Dragonstone to the Wall, without even a hint of Daenerys who was in Essos all along.

That she is led to Dragonstone at all could be a hint though since she was born there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Azor Ahai is not 3 persons than with 95% of chance Danny is the One and with 100% Danny or Jon is the One. If Azor Ahai are in fact 3, than Danny and Jon are part if it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, interesting that Mellisandre’s visions lead her from Essos to everywhere from Dragonstone to the Wall, without even a hint of Daenerys who was in Essos all along.

Mellissandre is a confused person.  Benerro and Moqorro are more likely to be correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

  1.  

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my original topic. I have done some more reading and came up with additional ideas on this topic.  Apologies because we have gone to the side of the road and veered to the left of the topic.  But this is still about Dany so I feel it's fine to proceed.  So those old men with the swords of fire.  They were Azor Ahai and the vision doesn't paint a picture of men who were in their primes and the tattered clothes probably meant they had not changed for a long time.  What could make kings wear faded and worn clothing?  The more I think on this and the more I read people's comments the more I refine my original ideas.  The clothes are faded because they were living through the long night!  Lack of food, spare clothing, gaunt, pale.  All point to people who lost civilization.  And their bespoke tailors!  

So if Azor Ahai won, why did the long night last so long?  Answer: He didn't win.  History is often wrong so why not legends.  Those Azor Ahais could not turn back the darkness.  They had to wait it out until the long night passed.  This is consistent with Nan's story of a night that lasted for a lifetime.  They also killed their wives. Due to insanity or maybe just like in Nan's story of the mother's smothering their babies to spare them from suffering.  Dany smothered Drogo to spare him from suffering.  

I don't have much to base this on except the post "Targaryen Madness Is An Exaggeration" and 'Will Jon Snow Go Mad?" posts.  I believe those kings went mad.  They were the ancestors of the Targaryens and they were all Azor Ahai.  They went mad.  Male Targaryens are susceptible to madness.  Think about this.  Madness can't be common among the 40 ruling families of old Valyria.  So just maybe it's not a Valyrian thing, it's a Targaryen family curse.  Call it genetics.  Whatever the case may be, many male Targaryens go mad.  

What is their interest in our young hero?  They were cheering Dany on like a squad of retired male cheerleaders.  Run, run away from the darkness.  Wake, wake the dragon.  They were encouraging Dany because she is the only hope to defeat the long night.  Why?  Because she's the first female Azor Ahai.  She's not susceptible to madness.   Azor Ahai is now female and she has three dragons.  She is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The prophecy used the word "prince" and it has been explained because dragons are gender neutral.  But we have to remember, the prophesied person comes before the dragons.  The word choice is not "prince' because dragons are gender neutral but because all the other Azor Ahais before were male.  But this time around is different and this is the game changer that everyone has been waiting for.  AA is born a female this time and instead of a magic sword she has three dragons!  English is not my strongest point so I am not getting my ideas across as well as I would like.  But I believe those old guys were AAs of ancient times, they lost the battle for the long night, they murdered their wives because they went insane, they only had swords to fight with, they have been waiting all this time for the Prince Who Was Promised, they needed a female AA to avoid the madness, they needed a female to hatch dragons, and that female Azor Ahai is Daenerys.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145805-targaryen-madness-is-an-exaggeration/

Nice.  The dragons will change the game this time around.  They won't be able to force the weather to change back to summer but they can burn away the wights and their masters.  Most of the people in westeros will still die because winter kills.  Martin already warned us about that.  But having the dragons will save enough people to repopulate after the winter passes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×