Does GRRM dislike musicians/minstrels?

[Angel Eyes]

Quite a few musicians/minstrels we meet are of unsavory character:

• Symond Silver Tongue: Attempted blackmail
• Marillion: Serial rapist and pedophile
• Dareon: Wastrel and Oathbreaker, possible rapist

And often meet horrible fates:

• Unnamed minstrel: Loses his tongue
• Symond: Turned into bowls of brown
• Marillion: Tortured for days by Mord before being killed
• Dareon: Throat slit and dumped in a canal

The exception appears to be Mance Rayder, who is mainly an oathbreaker.

[Therae]

I have wondered about this, as well.

To add to your list of unsavories:

• Cross-bowmen in the house band at the Red Wedding
• Tom o'Sevens, while not exactly a bad guy is not exactly a model citizen, either
• And of course, there is Rhaegar, who many folks think was a schmuck at best and a rapist at worst.

[Rosetta Stone]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Quite a few musicians/minstrels we meet are of unsavory character:

• Symond Silver Tongue: Attempted blackmail
• Marillion: Serial rapist and pedophile
• Dareon: Wastrel and Oathbreaker, possible rapist

And often meet horrible fates:

• Unnamed minstrel: Loses his tongue
• Symond: Turned into bowls of brown
• Marillion: Tortured for days by Mord before being killed
• Dareon: Throat slit and dumped in a canal

The exception appears to be Mance Rayder, who is mainly an oathbreaker.

There is nothing good about that man.  He and his women killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering as his guest and enjoying his hospitality. 

[Daendrew]

This is the SONG of ice and fire. All your favorite characters are dead.

[Angel Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

There is nothing good about that man.  He and his women killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering as his guest and enjoying his hospitality. 

Better than the other people on the list.

[Comrade Yurika]

25 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

There is nothing good about that man.  He and his women killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering as his guest and enjoying his hospitality. 

Yes, that's true. And Bolton's love of hospitality and his views on the sanctimony of guest right are legendary.

[Pride of Driftmark]

It is deeply symbolic, the fates of these singers. They sing of lies. They sing of "The Dance of the Dragons" as romantic, not as the horrible, pointless, violent affair that it was. Aegon II, Aemond One-Eye, Daemon the Rogue Prince, and Rhaenyra "King Maegor with Teats" were not good people in the slightest. The singers misrepresent history and pretend that war is fun. GRRM doesn't like that. Dragons are evil weapons of war, the Field of Fire was not glorious, it was awful. 

Forgive my rant about dragons.

Basically, this story is the Song of Ice and Fire. George is, in my opinion, trying to present a story that is real, and gritty, and horrible. The characters go through awful experiences and we see all of it firsthand- through the eyes of the people actually living through it. He is using the singers as the antithesis as this- misrepresenting the truth about human cruelty and evil in order to make people feel better about their history, their kings, and their lords. It is entirely possible that the War of the Five Kings and the Landing of the Golden Company will be sung about in the year 1300 AC, and the truth will be completely lost to the Westerosi- only us (outside of the universe) can see through the deception of the Song of Ice and Fire. 

Vomiting of random thoughts complete. 

[Nowy Tends]

5 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

 The singers misrepresent history and pretend that war is fun. GRRM doesn't like that.

So GRRM punishes the minstrels because they embellish the reality? Sounds ridiculous… Do you think the song The Rains of Castamere "misrepresents the truth about human cruelty"?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Quite a few musicians/minstrels we meet are of unsavory character:

• Symond Silver Tongue: Attempted blackmail
• Marillion: Serial rapist and pedophile
• Dareon: Wastrel and Oathbreaker, possible rapist

And often meet horrible fates:

• Unnamed minstrel: Loses his tongue
• Symond: Turned into bowls of brown
• Marillion: Tortured for days by Mord before being killed
• Dareon: Throat slit and dumped in a canal

The exception appears to be Mance Rayder, who is mainly an oathbreaker.

Interesting, I hadn't thought about this before.

Partly it's a reflection of history. Singers were generally considered disreputable because they were often wondering types with no particular allegiance. A bit like a sellsword with a lute instead of a sword. They would be suspected of flirting with criminality, and on the lowest rung would spend their days singing in taverns for loose change. 

Still, the list you have there does show a heavy bias against them, plus all the reminders of their lack of reliability in retelling tales (pretty much every chapter of Sansa's POV seems to beat us over the head with this point). 

I have to say, I see the value in this approach to performers, over the lionization of them in our society, throwing money at them and pretending they're gods among men. 

8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

There is nothing good about that man.  He and his women killed Roose Bolton's people while sheltering as his guest and enjoying his hospitality.

 

7 hours ago, KuwabaraTheMan said:

Yes, that's true. And Bolton's love of hospitality and his views on the sanctimony of guest right are legendary

Pointing to one violation and using it as proof that there is nothing good about someone is pretty absurd. There are lots of good things about Mance - his loyalty to his chosen people, his love of freedom, his ability to unite dozens of warring people and fiercely independent individuals for the sake of their common good...all these are good things. You might weigh that against his negative points - his breaking of the NW oath and mobilizing an army against the realm, his breaking of the guest right (although, come on, it's ROOSE BOLTON), and decide that on balance he's a bad person, but to simply declare him as having no good whatsoever is not really in the spirit of the books. The characters are complex, and all have good and bad points, as well as different ideas of what good and bad is. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am constantly surprised with how many people on this forum make absolute moral judgements about characters, given that one of THE MAIN THEMES of these novels is moral relativity and individual subjectivity. GRRM's characters live in the grey, not in the black or the white.  

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

There are only two musicians with good character: Rhaegar and Mance. Maybe they are the same person.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

There are only two musicians with good character: Rhaegar and Mance.

We don't know yet what Rhaegar's character was, or rather we get contradictory information. 

10 minutes ago, RedGrace that was promised said:

Maybe they are the same person.

Oh, Christ. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am constantly surprised with how many people on this forum make absolute moral judgements about characters, given that one of THE MAIN THEMES of these novels is moral relativity and individual subjectivity. GRRM's characters live in the grey, not in the black or the white.  

And then there are characters like The Mountain and Ramsay Bolton, who are on the extreme end of the moral spectrum.

[Rufus Snow]

Sansa seems to be our main conduit concerning songs and singers, though not the only one:

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa V

"Do you perchance recall what I said to you that day your father sat the Iron Throne?"

The moment came back to her vividly. "You told me that life was not a song. That I would learn that one day, to my sorrow." She felt tears in her eyes, but whether she wept for Ser Dontos Hollard, for Joff, for Tyrion, or for herself, Sansa could not say. "Is it all lies, forever and ever, everyone and everything?"

"Almost everyone. Save you and I, of course." He smiled. "Come to the godswood tonight if you want to go home."

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. "Won't your guards protect us?"

"And who will protect us from my guards?" The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. "Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost, my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They'll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washerwomen, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn't, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there's such a dearth of good sacking songs."

"True knights would never harm women and children." The words rang hollow in her ears even as she said them.

Then Theon:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I

We are all dead, Theon thought. I told them this was folly, but none of them would listen. Abel had doomed them. All singers were half-mad. In songs, the hero always saved the maiden from the monster's castle, but life was not a song, no more than Jeyne was Arya Stark. Her eyes are the wrong color. And there are no heroes here, only whores. Even so, he knelt beside her, pulled down the furs, touched her cheek. "You know me. I'm Theon, you remember. I know you too. I know your name."

It's almost like GRRM uses 'in the songs' to mean 'fake news'. We see examples in real time, where recent events get turned into songs that are wildly inaccurate or blatantly partisan, such as Hamish the Harper's 'Lord Renly's Ride' at the Purple Wedding:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

His fingers moved across the strings of the high harp, filling the throne room with sweet sound. "From his throne of bones the Lord of Death looked down on the murdered lord," Hamish began, and went on to tell how Renly, repenting his attempt to usurp his nephew's crown, had defied the Lord of Death himself and crossed back to the land of the living to defend the realm against his brother.

And for this poor Symon wound up in a bowl of brown, Tyrion mused. Queen Margaery was teary-eyed by the end, when the shade of brave Lord Renly flew to Highgarden to steal one last look at his true love's face. "Renly Baratheon never repented of anything in his life," the Imp told Sansa, "but if I'm any judge, Hamish just won himself a gilded lute."

 

With all these indications that songs and singers are not to be trusted, I'm somewhat bemused by all the intricate 'theories' that arise from some small trifle expressed 'in the songs' as though it must be the absolute truth, especially about events a thousand years past or more. Time and again we are shown the truth of events being erased almost immediately by songs and rumours and the chattering of the smallfolk, yet some would have us believe we can make detailed prognostications about the events and personages of the Dawn Age. I think GRRM is using singers to tell us that we can't.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

47 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And then there are characters like The Mountain and Ramsay Bolton, who are on the extreme end of the moral spectrum.

Absolutely, those are extremes though. I'm more talking about characters like Mance, who are so obviously mixed bags, that people decide for whatever reason to take hardline positions on. It's just weird. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

11 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

With all these indications that songs and singers are not to be trusted, I'm somewhat bemused by all the intricate 'theories' that arise from some small trifle expressed 'in the songs' as though it must be the absolute truth, especially about events a thousand years past or more. Time and again we are shown the truth of events being erased almost immediately by songs and rumours and the chattering of the smallfolk, yet some would have us believe we can make detailed prognostications about the events and personages of the Dawn Age. I think GRRM is using singers to tell us that we can't.

Absolutely. He uses "the songs" as a classic foil for beating us over the head with the message that the "real world" is not the same as whatever foolish idealistic notions people have. He gives a similar role to Nan's stories, though increasingly those appear to be hauntingly accurate. 

[Rufus Snow]

12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He gives a similar role to Nan's stories, though increasingly those appear to be hauntingly accurate. 

In parts they are hauntingly accurate, but she does also display some partisan biases, especially about Wildlings. It's only because we as readers get the benefit of multiple PoVs that we can see both parts - something that an in-universe character cannot do, so they are incapable of judging the way us privileged readers can. They are likely to disbelieve what she says about the Others and believe what she says about Wildlings - yet we know it's the other way round...

 

EDIT TO ADD: which also shows that GRRM tells us that the songs/stories may contain a kernal of truth, but that people cannot be sure that what theyb take from them is actually that kernal or a piece of dross....

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Rufus Snow said:

They are likely to disbelieve what she says about the Others and believe what she says about Wildlings - yet we know it's the other way round...

That's an astute point. 

"The songs" and Nan's stories, like all myths and legends, can't be taken as history, despite there being every possibility that they are rooted in some sort of fact. Old Nan herself probably doesn't know which bits are fiction and which are real. She's just telling the stories as she heard them (probably). 

[zandru]

11 hours ago, Therae said:

Cross-bowmen in the house band at the Red Wedding

Well, these guys were clearly NOT musicians, let alone "singers." Remember how everyone (Catelyn, Sandor, Arya) noted how awful the music sounded? There may have been a few musicians up in the orchestra loft, but mainly trained archers.

9 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

It is deeply symbolic, the fates of these singers. They sing of lies.

Great analysis, and I liked your examples from the Dance of the Dragons. The reason singers are so important in Westeros is that they provide the "history" that most people learn. Nearly everyone is illiterate. Hardly anybody gets any kind of formal schooling. Rumor, old wives tales, fairy tales, family remembrances - and the songs of passing singers - are the only way people learn about what happened in the past.

The singers, on the other hand, have a purely pecuniary motivation - they'll sing whatever pays. It's the winners writing history, but on steroids. Put the lies to a catchy tune with memorable rhymes and you've made a new reality! And, while everyone knows that a romance between "the bear and the maiden fair" is just amusing nonsense, when people hear of The Dragon Knight and Symeon Star-Eyes, they assume it must be the real thing, because those were real people! And nobody they know says any different.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, zandru said:

The reason singers are so important in Westeros is that they provide the "history" that most people learn. Nearly everyone is illiterate. Hardly anybody gets any kind of formal schooling. Rumor, old wives tales, fairy tales, family remembrances - and the songs of passing singers - are the only way people learn about what happened in the past.

It's funny, because obviously there are people who realise the discrepancy between "popular" history and reality. Characters who are educated like Tyrion, Oberyn, Sam and Hos often point this out. Being a historian myself, I actually love it when it's discussed in that way. The debate between Tyrion and Oberyn about Viserys, and their educated shared contempt for Baelor the Blessed, was a joy for me, as it read just like a discussion I'd have with my mates about the values of various historical figures. 

Another fun moment was when Jaime was wondering about the significance of the penny-tree at Pennytree, and decided not to bother asking Hos about it, as it would ruin the fun. Jaime's hardly an idiot, but his lack of intellectual curiosity is bloody frustrating!

[Rufus Snow]

18 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime's hardly an idiot, but his lack of intellectual curiosity is bloody frustrating!

Yeah, but he does provide Hoster with a chance to expound on GRRM's theme, showing that the maesters are probably no more reliable than the singers when it comes to history:

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"It is, my lord," the boy said, "but some of the histories were penned by their maesters and some by ours, centuries after the events that they purport to chronicle. It goes back to the Age of Heroes. The Blackwoods were kings in those days. The Brackens were petty lords, renowned for breeding horses. Rather than pay their king his just due, they used the gold their horses brought them to hire swords and cast him down."

"When did all this happen?"

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."