Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!

[Which Tyler]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45468290

ETA chief backs Serena against Ramos - also suggests that coaching should be allowed. Says that it was sexist, and that a man wouldn't have been punished like that.

Presumably because no man has ever been sanctioned for racquet abuse (except all of them). I don't recall any player (or coach) being busted for coaching before, but I'm pretty sure you don't get away with it due to gender or a someone else's belief that cheating is okay. I certainly don't recall any player being that disrespectful to the umpire (McEnroe would call them blind, but not cheats or thieves). Yes, everyone chunters away and outs their point across to the umpire,but there's a hell of a difference there IMO.

This should be the best day of Osaka's life so far; and we should be mostly talking about her; but it's all being ruined by a petulant child who's being encouraged in her petulance by her adults (WTA).

 

If you want a discussion about sexism in tennis, have a look at the doubles winners being rushed off court without their interviews in order to get the men out on time; not a diva temper tantrum.

[Jeor]

This Serena coverage is ridiculous. She should be getting 95% negative coverage but instead most of the things I've read seem to be taking her side.

Just because other people "get away with it", does that make what she did right? Not at all.

Her argument is basically the equivalent of saying, "other people have robbed banks and gotten away with it, so I shouldn't be punished if I've been caught robbing a bank".

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45468290

ETA chief backs Serena against Ramos - also suggests that coaching should be allowed. Says that it was sexist, and that a man wouldn't have been punished like that.

Presumably because no man has ever been sanctioned for racquet abuse (except all of them). I don't recall any player (or coach) being busted for coaching before, but I'm pretty sure you don't get away with it due to gender or a someone else's belief that cheating is okay. I certainly don't recall any player being that disrespectful to the umpire (McEnroe would call them blind, but not cheats or thieves). Yes, everyone chunters away and outs their point across to the umpire,but there's a hell of a difference there IMO.

This should be the best day of Osaka's life so far; and we should be mostly talking about her; but it's all being ruined by a petulant child who's being encouraged in her petulance by her adults (WTA).

 

If you want a discussion about sexism in tennis, have a look at the doubles winners being rushed off court without their interviews in order to get the men out on time; not a diva temper tantrum.

This is getting really embarrassing, such a shame to see legends like Billie Jean and Evert spinelessly backing Serena. 

Saying "coaching should be allowed" is completely irrelevant. That's an opinion on a rule change, the umpire's job is to enforce the rules, not the ones he personally thinks are right. I referee football, I can't just say "yes, that's usually a foul, but I don't think it should be, so I'm not giving it". 

Serena's argument makes no sense. She keeps going on about being accused of "cheating", but she isn't. Her coach is being accused of coaching, which he has confessed to. 

It's disgraceful that people in the game are saying she should be allowed to speak to a match official like that. Abuse of officials is a problem in tennis for men and women. That umpire should be praised for standing up to a "big name" player- he's previously had run ins with Nadal, Djokovic and Murray. We need strong umpires like this. 

This is the crux of the issue. There is sexism and racism in women's tennis, so people automatically feel they have to side with Serena, it's real identity politics stuff. This is turn will be used against women in tennis. I guarantee next time there is real discrimination against Serena or someone else people will say "oh yeah, sexism in tennis, like when Serena got fined for breaking the rules". This is the same divisive pattern we see in other parts of society.  

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

I don't recall any player (or coach) being busted for coaching before

She only got a warning for the coaching by Muratoglu, which is rare, but hardly unique. Everyone would have forgotten this by now if not for her meltdown later on

[Which Tyler]

Yeah - it reads to me (I haven't had a chance to actually watch it all yet) that each violation was an escalation from the previous - so a warning for coaching, then a violation for racquet abuse (which may or may not have been a warning if she hadn't already received a warning), and then no shit being taken for blatant disrespect.

You're probably right, that I don't recall previous coaching violations as they're mentioned and forgotten, rather than that they don't happen.

[Ran]

Nadal has said that Ramos has previously called him out on coaching, and Ramos also called out Venus Williams for it in the 2016 French Open (her response, and the response of the U.S. media, was pretty much the same strident denial from Serena Williams and the U.S. media now). All the profiles I'm seeing say Ramos is extremely experienced, highly regarded, and a stickler for rules. 

[David Selig]

It's happened to Nadal several times IIRC, he was even fined at Wimbledon once for receiving coaching - http://en.espn.co.uk/tennis/sport/story/31805.html

But frankly, that rule is very inconsistently enforced, and I totally understand why Serena was shocked that she was called for it during a GS final, but that's no excuse for her overreaction. And there was nothing sexist in its enforcement, female players get away with being coached blatantly from the stands even more often than the men in my experience. Justine Henin's coach was infamous for blatantly signalling to her on almost every point yet she very rarely received even unofficial warnings. It's a rule that either has to go or has to be enforced more strictly. Ramos is just stricter than most umpires, which is a good thing in my book. Rules are rules, maybe this debacle will force the ITF to rethink its position on the no-coaching rule.

 

[Mladen]

While I can ignore the media, the way so many professionals reacted on this is pure gold. From Andy Roddick and Azarenka to Mladenovic, I am dumbfounded how they can even think this way let alone publicly say it.

She was coached. Her coach said that. End of story. Strike one. She smashed her racket. Strike two. She called a umpire "a thief", strike three. It seems there is no real discussion here. But, we live in a crazy world where this gets its own SJW version. And it was truly repugnant from Serena to draw Ramos into sexism debate. And as has been noted several times, there was no sexism in this game.

All of that said, this seems a debate tennis experts are having for years. Some like Djokovic and Nadal are for changing the rule regarding the coaching. Federer, on the other hand, IIRC, is against it. Federer's argumentation was that tennis is the game of two, where player makes all the decisions by himself/herself. Any other factor in that would ruin tennis. Federer, as winner of all those Fair Play Awards, understand that rules for Big Three and those at n.50 or n.100 are not the same and I understand that "only the two of us" stance to be something many players would appreciate. 

More disturbingly for me was Serena's warning to Ramos that he will never officiate a match of hers. This is such a strong statement and not one that should be forgotten. What is the point of sport if one player, regardless of his reputation and success, can so blatantly claim something like that. More than that, fully understanding that he can't respond to her, knowingly that, unlike her, Ramos can't make press releases or statements, she attacked him for something she brought on herself. It was such a sad day for tennis and it just showed many, many issues the sport is facing. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It’s almost like none of you can empathize with the systemic sexism and racism the Williams sisters have experienced, and how Serena would see it through that lens in the moment. Yes she was behaving poorly, but the ref could have easily defused the situation and there was no need to give her a point penalty, especially in that moment. The most telling thing about the situation was that he didn’t come out during the trophy ceremony. He knee he messed up, and that crowd would have torn him to pieces for what he did.

Also, stop saying Serena stole Osaka’s moment. No one did more than her to defuse the situation after the fact. I know I wouldn’t have the ability to do what she did to calm the crowd down in the heat of the moment.

[Dolorous Gabe]

40 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

It’s almost like none of you can empathize with the systemic sexism and racism the Williams sisters have experienced, and how Serena would see it through that lens in the moment. Yes she was behaving poorly, but the ref could have easily defused the situation and there was no need to give her a point penalty, especially in that moment. The most telling thing about the situation was that he didn’t come out during the trophy ceremony. He knee he messed up, and that crowd would have torn him to pieces for what he did.

Also, stop saying Serena stole Osaka’s moment. No one did more than her to defuse the situation after the fact. I know I wouldn’t have the ability to do what she did to calm the crowd down in the heat of the moment.

I think you're seeing this through the distorted lens of your own fandom. All umpires are different and all the players will be aware of that. Strict or lenient, neither application of the rules is wrong as such. You can argue an umpire should use common sense in judging a situation but frankly Serena only has herself to blame.

The crowd would have torn him to pieces wrongly and his absence was clearly for Osaka's sake.

Calming the crowd was akin to cleaning up her own mess once she realised there were unpleasant consequences to it. And again, it becomes all about her.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

I think you're seeing this through the distorted lens of your own fandom. All umpires are different and all the players will be aware of that. Strict or lenient, neither application of the rules is wrong as such. You can argue an umpire should use common sense in judging a situation but frankly Serena only has herself to blame.

The crowd would have torn him to pieces wrongly and his absence was clearly for Osaka's sake.

Calming the crowd was akin to cleaning up her own mess once she realised there were unpleasant consequences to it. And again, it becomes all about her.

I can get that being a fan of hers can make me biased, but that would not have happened in a men’s match nor would it happen to any other super star in that type of moment. Serena is literally the only superstar I can think of who only doesn’t get superstar treatment, she actually gets treat worse than her peers. To bring it to your country, Murray has done things way worse than that a thousand times and he rarely gets punished for it. Serena gets punished for damn near everything. And you can’t ignore that she’s a black woman in a sport that’s never really valued its female athletes and has not done a ton until recently to promote diversity. The Williams sisters have been treated pretty poorly over the years so you can understand why Serena viewed it the way she did in a heated moment.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

It’s almost like none of you can empathize with the systemic sexism and racism the Williams sisters have experienced, and how Serena would see it through that lens in the moment. Yes she was behaving poorly, but the ref could have easily defused the situation and there was no need to give her a point penalty, especially in that moment. The most telling thing about the situation was that he didn’t come out during the trophy ceremony. He knee he messed up, and that crowd would have torn him to pieces for what he did.

Also, stop saying Serena stole Osaka’s moment. No one did more than her to defuse the situation after the fact. I know I wouldn’t have the ability to do what she did to calm the crowd down in the heat of the moment.

I certainly don't think it's an excuse. You're saying you hold black people and women to lower standards? Andy Murray had his primary school shot up as a child, does he ever get special treatment?

In the moment, sure. Tennis is extremely frustrating. Now, in the cold light of day, she should apologise. 

The job of the umpire is to enforce the rules. He took a lot of abuse from her before taking further action. She was on and on at him. Another umpire got criticised for being too lenient with Kyrious in an earlier round, so clearly it's a no win situation. 

Are you serious? She was in tears, and not happy tears. Yes, that was more the crowd's fault, but Serena's bratty behaviour caused that in the first place, and she has offered no apology. This reaction indicates to me people don't really care about black women, they just care about Serena cos I've seen her off the telly. 

 

13 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I can get that being a fan of hers can make me biased, but that would not have happened in a men’s match nor would it happen to any other super star in that type of moment. Serena is literally the only superstar I can think of who only doesn’t get superstar treatment, she actually gets treat worse than her peers. To bring it to your country, Murray has done things way worse than that a thousand times and he rarely gets punished for it. Serena gets punished for damn near everything. And you can’t ignore that she’s a black woman in a sport that’s never really valued its female athletes and has not done a ton until recently to promote diversity. The Williams sisters have been treated pretty poorly over the years so you can understand why Serena viewed it the way she did in a heated moment.

 

Based on what? When has a man given the umpire that level of sustained abuse and gotten away with it? This umpire has had run ins with most of the top male players. 

Murray, like a lot of players, often gives the officials shit, he's always swearing. But you can not show me an example of him giving repeated explicit dissent to the umpire like Serena did. 

It's funny people always talk about "the Williams sisters" as if they're one entity. Serena has always been a hothead on court, Venus is very different, she's extremely dignified in how she goes about things. As you say, they've been treated with the same hostility. Has Venus ever threatened to shove a ball down a lineswomans throat? 

I am still a Serena fan, I honestly am. She has made women's tennis so much more entertaining for as long as I can remember, and it's very impressive that she's still going. But lets admire her for what she actually is, she's not some "model minority" archetype, she's an incredibly driven, competitive person, and that often comes out in negative ways. You can admire the hell out of her while still recognising that's she's very human and very flawed. 

[David Selig]

The umpire of Serena's match, Carlos Ramos did everything by the book, and he is well known for being quite strict when presiding over men's matches too. All this talk how this never happen in a men's match is ridiculous since it happens all the time. In fact, Ramos already has had clashes over his strictness with some of the biggest male stars like Djokovic and Nadal. No, he hasn't done in a GS final, but there hasn't been a case of a male player violating the rules so blatantly and repeatedly in a GS final like Serena did.

Now he is the villain for enforcing the rules which is literally his job. Absolutely ridiculous. And him not coming for the trophy presentation is in no way an admission of guilt, he wanted to defuse the situation and IIRC was asked to do it by the USTA president.

[Mladen]

58 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I can get that being a fan of hers can make me biased, but that would not have happened in a men’s match nor would it happen to any other super star in that type of moment. Serena is literally the only superstar I can think of who only doesn’t get superstar treatment, she actually gets treat worse than her peers. To bring it to your country, Murray has done things way worse than that a thousand times and he rarely gets punished for it. Serena gets punished for damn near everything. And you can’t ignore that she’s a black woman in a sport that’s never really valued its female athletes and has not done a ton until recently to promote diversity. The Williams sisters have been treated pretty poorly over the years so you can understand why Serena viewed it the way she did in a heated moment.

Well, Ramos clashed with Nadal, he clashed with Muuray, Kyrgios, Djokovic. All tennis players know him and how he does his job. They know how strict he is, they know that he is somewhat traditionalist. Serena got the same treatment as any men. When Murray called his decisions "stupid umpiring" he got violation, when Nadal was coached, he got a violation, when Novak broke a racket, he got violation.

So, no, Serena is not the only one. Serena chose to break rules, not once, not twice, but three times. And she was rightfully sanctioned for it. It wasn't sexism, and she is perfectly aware of it, it was her inability to take the consequences of her actions.

Finally, no, Serena chose to view it because it made a victim of her. And she knows Ramos had every right to do what he did.

 

[David Selig]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html - finally an article in a major US media which criticises Serena's actions and offers a rational take on the whole incident, written by the great Martina Navratilova. 

[john]

10 hours ago, David Selig said:

She only got a warning for the coaching by Muratoglu, which is rare, but hardly unique. Everyone would have forgotten this by now if not for her meltdown later on

That’s how it works though.  First violation is a warning, second a point penalty, third a game penalty.  One more and she’d have forfeited the match.

So Ramos didn’t have much choice with the two subsequent violations, although he could’ve been lenient with the verbal abuse call.  The original coaching violation was lame though.

Obviously he’s entitled to enforce it if he wants but it’s a stupid rule, which is probably why umpires don’t generally bother.  How are you going to tell someone is coaching with a gesture?  And the defence that she didn’t see it seems perfectly valid.  It’s supposed to be a communication and if she didn’t see it obviously there’s no communication.

[Mladen]

16 minutes ago, john said:

How are you going to tell someone is coaching with a gesture?  And the defence that she didn’t see it seems perfectly valid.  It’s supposed to be a communication and if she didn’t see it obviously there’s no communication.

1. There is such thing as sign language. A lot can be said with gestures.

2. She claimed there is no coaching. Her coach said there was. She claimed they don't have code, which coach's admission simply negated.

3. No one sane would admit to breaking the rules.

[Calibandar]

On 9/9/2018 at 11:03 PM, baxus said:

Sure, we'd all like to have at least one matchup between Federer, Nadal and Djokovic in every tournament and we'd like it to be another one of their epic clashes we fondly remember, but the truth is that those are going to happen less and less often with Federer aging and Nadal's style of tennis taking a toll on his body. Even Djokovic had disappeared for a year and a half though he seems to be regaining his good form from before.

I know that makes us wanting those clashes even more and it would be great to have as many as possible before the Big Three falls apart but I'm afraid the level of tennis wouldn't be anywhere near what we're used to from three of them.

.

It´s been a tough year for fans wanting to see the big guns clash with each other.

Or maybe two years. 

I was just wondering earlier when Fed went out how we´re constantly being denied the matches that we want.

First it was because of the constant injuries, now pretty much all the top guys including Djoker, Raonic, Stan the Man and Nishikori have returned, after having been out for so long, and now we´re still not getting those matches. Cincinnati final was a flop. When Federer and Nadal seem imminent to play each other this year, once of them goes out. Even in the troubled 2017 we had better clashes.

Which is all odd because Federer is overall still at an extremely high level, so is Nadal, and Djokovic is now clearly back to his best.

On top of that some youngsters are closing in on the top 10 (Zverev, Shapovalov, Kachanvov to name a few). Even Murray is coming back.

I am hoping that in the remaining tournaments this year we will see those clashes. 

BTW speaking of Djokovic, he played some phenomenal tennis last night against Del Potro.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I certainly don't think it's an excuse. You're saying you hold black people and women to lower standards? Andy Murray had his primary school shot up as a child, does he ever get special treatment?

Did you type this out and think you were making a serious, valid point? What I'm talking about is well documented by psychologists, that people have conscious and unconscious biases and that they can be particularly negative towards African Americans and women. Serena has discussed this at length over the years. When looking at this situation, try viewing it through her eyes, not your own. 

Quote

In the moment, sure. Tennis is extremely frustrating. Now, in the cold light of day, she should apologise. 

Agreed, or at least to Osaka. You guys keep saying Serena ruined her moment. Well so did the ref. She wanted to beat Serena because she was better than her, not because of what went down.

Quote

The job of the umpire is to enforce the rules. He took a lot of abuse from her before taking further action. She was on and on at him. Another umpire got criticised for being too lenient with Kyrious in an earlier round, so clearly it's a no win situation. 

He was also overeager in enforcing them. The coaching violation was particularly lame.  

Quote

Are you serious? She was in tears, and not happy tears. Yes, that was more the crowd's fault, but Serena's bratty behaviour caused that in the first place, and she has offered no apology. This reaction indicates to me people don't really care about black women, they just care about Serena cos I've seen her off the telly. 

Dude that could have gotten so much worse if Serena hadn't told them to knock it off, and we don't know what was said in private. I think it was eminently clear that she bore no ill will to Osaka.

Quote

Based on what? When has a man given the umpire that level of sustained abuse and gotten away with it? This umpire has had run ins with most of the top male players. 

We've all see male tennis players behave worse than that and get a pass, and not in a moment as important as deep into the second set of the CHAMPIONSHIP. 

Quote

Murray, like a lot of players, often gives the officials shit, he's always swearing. But you can not show me an example of him giving repeated explicit dissent to the umpire like Serena did. 

I. can't. even...

Quote

It's funny people always talk about "the Williams sisters" as if they're one entity. Serena has always been a hothead on court, Venus is very different, she's extremely dignified in how she goes about things. As you say, they've been treated with the same hostility. Has Venus ever threatened to shove a ball down a lineswomans throat? 

Not to my knowledge, but you already addressed why they get treated as one, because of the discrimination they faced. It took tennis fans a while to be good with their sport being run by two black girls from the hood.

Quote

I am still a Serena fan, I honestly am. She has made women's tennis so much more entertaining for as long as I can remember, and it's very impressive that she's still going. But lets admire her for what she actually is, she's not some "model minority" archetype, she's an incredibly driven, competitive person, and that often comes out in negative ways. You can admire the hell out of her while still recognising that's she's very human and very flawed. 

So we're still using BS terms like "model minority" in 2018? Wonderful.....

And circling back to the beginning, you and others have used some terminology that would imply some unconscious biases. We all have them, and would do best to try and make them conscious for ourselves so we can be rid of them. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, Ramos clashed with Nadal, he clashed with Muuray, Kyrgios, Djokovic. All tennis players know him and how he does his job. They know how strict he is, they know that he is somewhat traditionalist. Serena got the same treatment as any men. When Murray called his decisions "stupid umpiring" he got violation, when Nadal was coached, he got a violation, when Novak broke a racket, he got violation.

So, no, Serena is not the only one. Serena chose to break rules, not once, not twice, but three times. And she was rightfully sanctioned for it. It wasn't sexism, and she is perfectly aware of it, it was her inability to take the consequences of her actions.

Finally, no, Serena chose to view it because it made a victim of her. And she knows Ramos had every right to do what he did.

 

Let me re-clarify, they wouldn't be hit with those calls in that situation, or at least I think it's far less likely. The ref basically gift wrapped a championship to Osaka, and I don't think he would have done that to one of the elite male players. If you have examples of times he did, I'm all ears.

I'm fine with a violation for harassment, but in that situation you should be inclined to let it slide and administer a warning letting her know that this ends now or else. You could argue the same with her smashing her racket. The coaching violation was lame. You do that in the early rounds to send a message, and you do it when said coaching is far more blatant.  

At the end of the day, when you're a ref, you should try avoiding being the story at all costs, and he failed to do that, and it did a disservice to both players.