Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!

[BigFatCoward]

Ha, even Billy Jean King is now backing down on her support of Serena. 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, Risto said:

Because, unlike the rest of us, he is forbidden to speak. Per ITF rules, umpires can't publicly comment on the matches or make statements. Serena, as anyone else following the sport is aware of this. His name can be slandered here, or anywhere else, without him being able to say a word. Serena has a platform that he doesn't have.

He can defend himself in the game though, and he doesn't have to outside of it because his colleagues are doing it for him. Furthermore, they are now talking about unionizing over this. THIS. They have been treated far worse in the past, and this is what does it? I wonder if they'd do this if a white woman talked back like she did? Or any man? Oh wait the answer is no, which in some ways justifies the feelings of sexism and racism.

Quote

Nadal's Carlos was Bernandez not Ramos, although Ramos did sanctioned him too.

Okay good to know. But it goes to show that what she did was not unique. Man, now I need to go Youtube some legendary McEnroe videos.

CHALK WENT UP!!!

Quote

Why do you say that? Because he has a record, unlike many umpires, with the most powerful names? Yes, that is why everyone in sport respects him. He is not the one to be frightened by the name. And that means something. Especially for those players who do't have the same pedigree. 

Nah, just cause all the quotes I from players about him were pretty negative. That's not really common, at least in U.S. sports.

Quote

You do understand that he didn't give her three violations in the matter of seconds. First, he gave her one violation, than she continued and lost a game, after she smashed the racket, a situation in which the rules are even more clear. Then he informed her about a point penalty, she has a meltdown calling him "thief", which again is a situation Ramos has to act. Serena had the chance to cool down, Serena was asked to understand and not continue with the tantrum. Serena ignored and chose otherwise. Well, what she chose is against the rule.

Obviously I know that, but here's the thing, it never should have gotten to this point. The rules on coaching are open to interpretation, and what her coach was doing was minimal, and it sounds like she didn't really see that. The correct thing to do there is warn the box, if any action is taken at all. Smashing the racket is a cut and dried code violation. Ding for that all you like, but it should have been the first event, not the second. And it's important to keep in mind that Serena's temperament would have likely gone in a different direction if not for what she perceived as an accusation of cheating. We might not even get the thief comment if it went down like this instead. And even if we got some similar blow up from her, then you can dock her the point. But a game in the second set of a championship match? That's a bridge too far, and no, it's doesn't matter who was on serve.

And as I said before, you have to keep in mind that Serena has been screwed by the officials before, and specifically a few times at this tournament. That's why she was complaining about it happening again. You cannot ignore that out of hand.

Quote

And honestly, do you think this is the first time Serena does something like this? To create a situation when things don't go as she wants? Just google that too...

Man a lot of great tennis players have done that over years, though I am trying to picture Fed doing that because I can't recall ever seeing it. 

Quote

There is so much sexism all over the world. There are so many women whose careers and financial status have been damaged due to this. Unfortunately, Serena Williams is one of those women. I understand that. But she made a mistake. OK, it happens. No one is perfect. But, then she equalized her situation with situation of many women, while simultaneously sounding like a rich bully:

"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you’re sorry.”

These are not the words of a woman facing the sexism. These are the words of someone who has considerable amount of money and influence and was dead on to get her way. If we disregard her skin color and gender and just read those words, we can actually see that these are not the words of a victim, but of a bully.

What is with the incessant need to label her as a bully? Men have behaved worse than this, and I don't see them being labeled as such. And that again plays into the sexism angle. I don't think what actually went down was some hardcore sexist act, but sexism and racism could have influenced it, and that is her perception.  As to the attributed quote, I take that more as someone with power who is not going to take it any more. Being rich and having some measure of power doesn't prevent you from experiencing bigotry, otherwise people would call pro-athletes the N word from the stands. 

Quote

I am sorry, but from my point of view, Serena was not the victim of sexism that night. She was a bully who used all disposable tools to fight for what she felt is hers.

And this is what I've been talking about the whole time. Your view point doesn't matter as much as her's does. I think you're more likely right than wrong and if sexism played a role, it's not as large of one as Serena would like to think. But that doesn't really matter, because you're a man and she's a woman and she is more likely to notice something that feels like sexism than you or I are. That's the whole point. And she didn't have the benefit of hindsight to look back and realize she was acting out of control. But it should have never gotten to that point, because the first code violation wasn't necessary and it kick started this whole thing. The coaching did nothing to affect the match, the coach said he's always done this just like nearly every other coach and the rules surrounding it have some vagueness. Either completely ban it and if it's caught, empty the player's box or allow it and have it affect 1% of the game most of the time. Frankly it's kind of a dumb rule, because as far as I can tell, tennis is the only sport I know of where a player has a coach and can't use them. But that's a topic for another time.

[Mladen]

16 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

He can defend himself in the game though, and he doesn't have to outside of it because his colleagues are doing it for him. Furthermore, they are now talking about unionizing over this. THIS. They have been treated far worse in the past, and this is what does it? I wonder if they'd do this if a white woman talked back like she did? Or any man? Oh wait the answer is no, which in some ways justifies the feelings of sexism and racism.

I watch tennis rather regularly and I can tell you, it's been years and years since aggravation of this sort happened by someone as powerful and influential as Serena. The Big Three of ATP Tour - Federer, Nadal and Djokovic had their issues with umpires but they never escalated. Same goes for WTA tour - Azarenka, Clijsters, Sharapowa... We really didn't see something like this happening.

This has nothing to do with sexism or racism. Just like there are male umpires, there are female umpires. There are also numerous POC umpires. This was about some very serious words Serena addressed to an umpire. And again, if you can find something more serious than this incident, please share with us. But also can we keep examples, if any, from this millennium? 

WTA and USTA have both financial and PR benefit of supporting Serena, ITF doesn't benefit from supporting Ramos. They are doing so because they also feel the weight of Serena's threats to Ramos. And if her behavior becomes acceptable, how long before other big name decides that they would choose an umpire? 

25 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

But it goes to show that what she did was not unique. 

You can't even begin to compare what she did and what Nadal did. Nadal said, in loose translation:

"I am going to ask that you never umpire me because I can't work with you" 

Here is a video...

Serena, to quote again, said:

Quote

"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you’re sorry.”

Nadal's reaction and Serena's can't even compare. Nadal didn't even raise a voice to Bernandes, while Serena was literally commanding Ramos to apologize.

30 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Nah, just cause all the quotes I from players about him were pretty negative. That's not really common, at least in U.S. sports.

Please share the quotes. Not the BS regarding this match, but quotes about Ramos...

He is so bad that he is only one of 30 God Badge owners and one of only few to have "Umpire Gold Badge". Furthermore, he has already been asked to officiate match between USA and Croatia, so he has full support and trust of ITF.

41 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

And as I said before, you have to keep in mind that Serena has been screwed by the officials before, and specifically a few times at this tournament. That's why she was complaining about it happening again. You cannot ignore that out of hand.

Yes, I understand that. I also remember that she has threatened an umpire in 2009. The umpiring fiasco happened in 2004. The thing is, while I can understand her anger and frustration, I simply can't support the sexism argument.

43 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

What is with the incessant need to label her as a bully? Men have behaved worse than this, and I don't see them being labeled as such.

And what is with the incessant need to evade answers? How many times have we asked about situations in which men behaved like Serena? And let me tell you how many times we got an answer: 0.

45 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

But that doesn't really matter, because you're a man and she's a woman and she is more likely to notice something that feels like sexism than you or I are. That's the whole point.

Yes, that is true, but also I feel there were many women, both her colleagues and professionals, understanding that, while this was an unfortunate scenario, this was not an act of sexism.

*** 

Just to add on that comment about Billy Jean King

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/sports/2018/09/11/billie-jean-king-serena-us-open-amanpour-sot-vpx.cnn

[Clueless Northman]

If she was playing against a White male, instead of a Japanese woman, the sexist/racist argument would have far more weight. As things are, though, it has, literally, none.

Heck, having an American player protesting and riling up an American crowd because said American is being beaten up by an Asian would look awfully like racism, if reported this way.

 

As for coaching, it's way too difficult to stop it. At this point, they should realize they just have 2 options: either they allow it, or the coach sits far from the court, or even isn't allowed inside the arena, so that there's no way to communicate.

[baxus]

17 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

True, but the circumstances matter as well. If had happened in the first step, whatever. I’d still argue it was wrong, but it would have had less of an impact on the game. If the same thing happened in the third round, again, whatever. Would have argued it was wrong, but wouldn’t be dug in on it. If it happened in the championship of a non-slam, I wouldn’t care at all. But it happened in the championship of a slam that could have led to her tying a historic record. You don’t over insert yourself as a ref/ump/official  in that situation unless it’s unavoidable, and in this case it wasn’t. And if you put yourself in her shoes, you can understand how and why she reacted the way she did. She got a BS warning on coaching and it went off the rails from there. I’ve never said she didn’t misbehave. She did. But so did the official, who started all of the chaos, and it’s shocking that you guys are ignoring that.

Regardless of your take on this, rules should be enforced across the board. There's no reason why one set of rules should apply in GS finals and another set of rules for other matches and there's definitely no separate set of rules for matches where Serena (or whoever, of course) could tie a historic record. If she wants that record, she should stop throwing tantrums and behaving like a spoilt toddler.

Let's not try to treat this as it was a case of umpire going after her and trying to stop her from winning since it obviously wasn't. Umpire did nothing wrong, it was Serena who was at fault. To make matters worse, she tried to hide her despicable behavior behind excuses of sexism and racism and, the worst of all, she ruined the moment for the young athlete who won the biggest match of her career.

Umpire was enforcing RULES. Period. Is coaching against the rules? Yes. Is breaking the racquet against the rules? Yes. Is disrespecting an official and calling him a thief against the rules? Yes. Did the umpire go outside of rules when punishing those infractions? No, he didn't. That's where the whole debate should be over. Whether Serena likes it or not, rules to apply to her as much as other players and she should behave properly. No one says she has to agree with every decision umpire makes but she needs to be respectful, especially when she KNOWS she's breaking the rules and expecting preferential treatment.

And no, it wasn't the umpire who over inserted himself in this case.  It was Serena who over inserted him with the way she behaved and kept escalating the situation. And stop saying it was a BS coaching call. Her coach admitted to it, for God's sake! How much more proof do you need?

It's shocking that you ignore all of THAT.

17 hours ago, john said:

And that’s why officials are usually tolerant when their decisions can be open to interpretation.  It helps keep the game controlled and is better for the spectators.  I’m not saying Ramos did anything wrong but it’s not a style that I prefer.

While officials will often tolerate athlete's tantrums, especially in individual sports, there is no official that will be tolerant to being publicly called a cheat and a thief.

[john]

56 minutes ago, baxus said:

While officials will often tolerate athlete's tantrums, especially in individual sports, there is no official that will be tolerant to being publicly called a cheat and a thief.

True, I don’t blame him.  The leniency should have been in the coaching violation. He still could have ignored the verbal abuse though, it was his choice.

After the game penalty, Serena refused to play on for a few minutes.  Ramos could’ve given another game penalty there but he didn’t.

[mormont]

8 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

If she was playing against a White male, instead of a Japanese woman, the sexist/racist argument would have far more weight. As things are, though, it has, literally, none.

This makes no sense whatsoever: literally, none.

An umpire can't be motivated by sexism or racism if both the players are women of colour? Do racists somehow magically not experience their own racism in these situations? 

The complaint is not that the umpire didn't treat the other player in this match the same way he did Williams. The complaint is that the umpire wouldn't have treated a white male player the same way, in a different match, had the same situation arisen.

Now that may or may not be true, and it may or may not be credible. But you can't use Osaka as a human shield to rubbish the entire accusation. That's just a failure to understand the issues.  

[The hairy bear]

11 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

They have been treated far worse in the past, and this is what does it?

You keep repeating this without anything to support it, even though it has been repeatedly asked to provide a single example of a worse disrespect to an umpire during any match.

In any other sport I can thing of, a similar insult to the referee would cost the player some months. If anything, I'm astounded at how lenient sanction was.

11 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

And this is what I've been talking about the whole time. Your view point doesn't matter as much as her's does.

No. Her point of view matters as much as mine or anyone's. The only opinion that matters more than the rest is the umpire's.

The fact that Serena believes that he is being prejudiced does not give her free rein to insult the umpire. Specially if you base your accusation only on the flimsy excuse that "he was strictly enforcing the rules, as he is know to do in all matches and with all kinds of players".

You keep saying that we should put ourselves in Serena's shoes, but have you tried to put yourself in Ramos'? Are you saying that he should not treat he as he treats absolutely everyone else? That he should ignore her breaking the racket because she has reason to be frustrated? That he should stand her calling him a thieve and a liar because some other people have mistreated her in the past?

Ramos may not be a black woman, but he has a right to his own honor as anyone else. It's terribly unfair to label him a sexist and a racist with absolutely no proof.

[Dolorous Gabe]

11 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Furthermore, they are now talking about unionizing over this. THIS. They have been treated far worse in the past, and this is what does it? I wonder if they'd do this if a white woman talked back like she did? Or any man? Oh wait the answer is no, which in some ways justifies the feelings of sexism and racism.

Okay good to know. But it goes to show that what she did was not unique. Man, now I need to go Youtube some legendary McEnroe videos.

As far as threatening umpires is concerned, I'd say it is fairly unique. No other incident cited so far fits that characteristic.

Oh yeah, except Serena threatening a line judge!

Nadal comes closest but it has been demonstrated that he was careful with his words.

Arguing with officials is quite different from threatening them. Nobody condones the former but the latter is a far weightier violation.

 

I think there might be a reasonable debate to be had about whether an umpire should deliver a warning to the coach for coaching instead of sanctioning the player, with maybe a second coaching violation leading to the coach being sent away from the court.

But honestly, I cannot see any merit in the idea that Serena was wronged here. The umpire followed the rules as they currently stand. He's known to be strict in his enforcement and Serena should know this as knowing such is part of sporting preparation, as is controlling your emotions. As such, destroying her racket was foolish as well as tempestuous. She only has herself to blame for the exchanges that followed and hence for the crowd unrest.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, john said:

True, I don’t blame him.  The leniency should have been in the coaching violation. He still could have ignored the verbal abuse though, it was his choice.

Ok, I'll bite. Why is it exactly that umpire should've been lenient about coaching violation?

Why on Earth would an umpire ignore the verbal abuse? What did Serena actually do to warrant a free pass on that? Being the best woman tennis player in the world doesn't entitle her to that and neither does winning a bunch of trophies.

[john]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

Ok, I'll bite. Why is it exactly that umpire should've been lenient about coaching violation?

Why on Earth would an umpire ignore the verbal abuse? What did Serena actually do to warrant a free pass on that? Being the best woman tennis player in the world doesn't entitle her to that and neither does winning a bunch of trophies.

Because he could. It’s his interpretation of whether coaching happened, he’s not bound by the rulebook on that.  I have more respect for officials that give generous interpretations of events and let the play go on.

The verbal abuse is tougher, she did warrant the sanction but still, the match was kind of spoiled for the spectators because of it. It was Williams’ fault but she doesn’t have the responsibility over the game that he does.  Nobody was going to criticise him if he let it slide in that situation.

[lessthanluke]

11 minutes ago, john said:

.  Nobody was going to criticise him if he let it slide in that situation.

I disagree.

If he didn't punish Williams for her tirade he would definitely have been criticised. 

[David Selig]

13 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

He can defend himself in the game though, and he doesn't have to outside of it because his colleagues are doing it for him. Furthermore, they are now talking about unionizing over this. THIS. They have been treated far worse in the past, and this is what does it? I wonder if they'd do this if a white woman talked back like she did? Or any man? Oh wait the answer is no, which in some ways justifies the feelings of sexism and racism.

The umpires' main concern isn't what Serena did on the court. This kind of stuff happens in the heat of the moment and they know it (though this was one of the most extreme cases I can recall). They are concerned that instead of supporting the umpire who did everything correctly according to the rules, WTA's CEO and USTA president threw Ramos and his fellow umpires under the bus and spoke out in defense of Serena. No official defended McEnroe when he was being a brat on the court back in the day. No official excused Nadal or Djokovic's tantrums by saying the umpire had it coming because he's a biased against them.

 

12 minutes ago, john said:

 Nobody was going to criticise him if he let it slide in that situation. 

Not true. I, and I am certain many other people, would have criticised him for it. This kind of blatant violation of the rules should be punished, and rules should be enforced the same way regardless if it is a Grand Slam final or a first round of a Challenger tournament.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, john said:

Because he could. It’s his interpretation of whether coaching happened, he’s not bound by the rulebook on that.  I have more respect for officials that give generous interpretations of events and let the play go on.

The verbal abuse is tougher, she did warrant the sanction but still, the match was kind of spoiled for the spectators because of it. It was Williams’ fault but she doesn’t have the responsibility over the game that he does.  Nobody was going to criticise him if he let it slide in that situation.

Mate, this is one of the biggest criticisms tennis fans have. The rules don't get enforced, especially with star players. Have you ever watched Nadal break the time limit on almost every service point and the umpire just allow it? It drives people insane. 

If anyone is interested in looking back at the old line judge incident, Serena said-

"I swear to God I'll fucking take the ball and shove it down your fucking throat."

"Afterwards, she was unrepentant: "An apology from me? How many people yell at linespeople? I see it happening all the time. I don't know how many times I have seen that happen. I am a professional. I'm not the beggar, like, 'Please, please, please, let me have another chance,' because it was the rules and I play by the rules."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/sep/13/serena-williams-tirade-us-open

Based on that, I don't think any of us should hold our breath waiting for an apology. Note how she thinks she should be allowed to speak to women.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, john said:

Because he could. It’s his interpretation of whether coaching happened, he’s not bound by the rulebook on that.  I have more respect for officials that give generous interpretations of events and let the play go on.

The verbal abuse is tougher, she did warrant the sanction but still, the match was kind of spoiled for the spectators because of it. It was Williams’ fault but she doesn’t have the responsibility over the game that he does.  Nobody was going to criticise him if he let it slide in that situation.

Well, who you have more respect for is hardly relevant in the big picture, is it? I mean, I have more respect for refs/umpires who don't let star athletes get away with things like this and it's just as poor an argument for proving a point.

I agree that the finals was spoiled for spectators but I definitely wouldn't place the blame for that at the umpire's feet. There's only one person who's responsible for Serena Williams' behavior and it's not some umpire. Even if he was wrong, she could've taken the warning and let it go. Instead, she chose to escalate the situation to the point of flat out ruining the final. As one of the most successful athletes in her sport's history she should've known better.

We don't have access to the parallel universe where umpire let it slide so we don't know how harshly he would've been criticized in that case. What we do know is that he SHOULD've been very heavily criticized for allowing an athlete to behave that way and he'd lose all authority he's built over the years. It's highly likely that sooner rather than later everyone would start behaving that way. Could you imagine this ump officiating Kyrgios' match in that case?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Holy hell, some of these comments are ignorant. I will do my best to respond to each that is valid throughout the day, and yes I have freely admitted I’m a casual fan so it’s harder for me to just pull out specific examples, but I have seen a ton of clips of tennis highlights over the years in which men freak out, both at the ref and in general which have cost them less, which has been the entire point.

Broadly speaking, several of you have cited that the official was enforcing the rule. Can you not also admit that the rule is arbitrary? A cop can sit at a stop sign and watch four people roll through it and decide not to enforce the law against them, but decides to do it to the fifth person who does so, and that the fifth person could be a black woman who sees the four cars ahead of her get a pass while she gets stopped and feel that it’s sexist and/or racist? Because that’s what basically happened here.

Serena’s coach admitted that he was coaching. He also said he’s done it in most matches, and every commentator I’ve seen has said basically every coach does the same thing. Her coach also said this is the first time he’s ever been hit with a code violation for doing so. That means the official, Ramos, was the outlier. So no, this was not a simple enforcement of the rules, it was highly subjective, and it’s what sent the match off of the rails.

I, as a Serena fan, have said several times now that she should not have blown up, and that I’m fine with it costing her a point. But a game? Making it 5-3? In the second set? Down a break? And a set? IN THE FINALS? Get out of here. It’s absurd. If it had happened to Fed, Nadal or Joker, I suspect many of you would be saying something very different, but because, from my experience posting in this thread for three to four years, you all hate her, it’s just a fair application of the rules………

Why is it so hard for most of you to just admit that it was the official, enforcing an arbitrary rule that most others would let slide, and not Serena, that began to send the match off of the rails?

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, lessthanluke said:

I disagree.

If he didn't punish Williams for her tirade he would definitely have been criticised. 

The point is he shouldn’t have dinged her for the coaching code violation, and that because he did, he could have given her a warning rather taking a game and effectively ending the match. Sure Serena could have come back in theory, but she wasn’t at her best and she was sobbing on the sidelines. How do you expect her to be composed considering every thing that was going on?

[lessthanluke]

6 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The point is he shouldn’t have dinged her for the coaching code violation, and that because he did, he could have given her a warning rather taking a game and effectively ending the match. Sure Serena could have come back in theory, but she wasn’t at her best and she was sobbing on the sidelines. How do you expect her to be composed considering every thing that was going on?

I don't really expect her to be composed. I would probably have lost my shit also. I would also expect to be punished for doing that.

[lessthanluke]

14 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The point is he shouldn’t have dinged her for the coaching code violation, and that because he did, he could have given her a warning rather taking a game and effectively ending the match. Sure Serena could have come back in theory, but she wasn’t at her best and she was sobbing on the sidelines. How do you expect her to be composed considering every thing that was going on?

14 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

 

You keep repeating that first sentence as if it's fact. It's your opinion. People get warnings for coaching ALL THE TIME. (I believe it happened two other times just in this one tournament) This is not some one off that has just happened to Serena.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, lessthanluke said:

You keep repeating that first sentence as if it's fact. It's your opinion. People get warnings for coaching ALL THE TIME. This is not some one off that has just happened to Serena.

The coach said he does it in basically every match and he’s never been hit for it. That makes it one massive statistical outlier, especially given the moment.