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Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!


Mladen

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52 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

How do you prove subtle racism and sexism?  That’s what women and minorities have been complaining about for ages. It’s rarely overt these days, and subjective in the moment. Not all racists wear white hoods and not all sexists are telling women to go make them a sandwich in the kitchen while they’re barefoot and pregnant. Serena can absolutely feel she was the victim of sexism and the official can absolutely feel that he was treating her fairly. The point is that you shouldn’t immediately dismiss Serena’s opinion because you disagree and/or it makes you uncomfortable.

I don't need to prove racism or sexism since I'm not the one claiming I'm a victim of racism and sexism.

Well, FEELING the certain way does not mean that one is correct in assuming their view of the situation is correct. I mean, white supremacists do FEEL that this or that minority is ruining their countries, their "traditional values" and all that kind of bullshit. Doesn't make that true, does it?

8 minutes ago, Risto said:

At some point, this became ridiculous. No, seriously, you have failed to provide any legitimate argument for your views, refused to give answers, subjected others to accusations of racism and sexism and continuously argued despite what has been said. I am sorry, but this level of intellectual dishonesty, even for Internet debate, is a bit too much.

This reminds me of a certain world class athlete who didn't get her own way in a high-profile sport event that happened recently...

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36 minutes ago, Risto said:

At some point, this became ridiculous. No, seriously, you have failed to provide any legitimate argument for your views, refused to give answers, subjected others to accusations of racism and sexism and continuously argued despite what has been said. I am sorry, but this level of intellectual dishonesty, even for Internet debate, is a bit too much.

Can you give us any example? No, you can't. You know you are unable to do it, I know you are unable to do it. We all know that. You argue with people who follow tennis for years and yet all you were able to say "I see dudes freaking out all the times". I and many others posted videos of players who said far less than Serena that night and got the same sanction. Yes, for them it was first, so it is just a warning, for Serena it was third and it was a game penalty. So, unlike you, we have given time and time again, factual proof that validate our point of view. You haven't even worse you behave like it is so obvious that you don't even have to.

If you are on the beach and someone asked you to show sand, then you grab some into your hand and show it. That is what you seem to be unable to do in this debate and why this debate became pointless long time ago.

Constructive debate can be held about what happened on Saturday night, even about sexism in tennis and sexism and racism Williams has endured over the past years. Unfortunately, I believe you are not the right person to have that debate with. 

Finally, that is all I have to say on the subject... Moving on...

The lolz are real. No seriously, who did I call racist or sexist? And you call me intellectually dishonest…..

I have said you’ve showed male privilege, and it was because of this:

On 9/11/2018 at 9:46 AM, Risto said:

Male privilege? I am sorry, but you will have to find some other target here... I proud myself to be a feminist. Serena was not on side of women that night, she argued sexism for her own selfish reasons.

What I have said is that you need to understand how these things work on a spectrum, and that you should do a better job of trying to understand how someone can perceive an action to have racist and/or sexist undertones. That person could be wrong, but the outright rejection of them is not a healthy way to discuss hot button topics like this, so don’t tell me I’m not the person to discuss this with. You completely rejected it, repeatedly called Serena a bully, among other things, called the official courageous and I believe it was you who also said she did it for the purposes of gamesmanship (and apologies if that was not you, but someone said it).

As far as examples go, one needs only use Google to find a ton of examples of the ramifications of a tennis meltdown. Do players typically get punished? Yup. Does it cost them a point, a game and even get them tossed? Yup. What I can’t find is an example of it happen to a male in a championship that is comparable to what happened on Saturday. As you love to say, you know more about the sport than I, so tell me when it’s happened. I’ve asked several times and said I’ll change my mind if you can show me that it’s happened to marquee male players.

Serena felt that she experienced sexism. She probably didn’t. But treating it with heavy hands as you have done is not the way to go man.

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52 minutes ago, baxus said:

I don't need to prove racism or sexism since I'm not the one claiming I'm a victim of racism and sexism.

Well, FEELING the certain way does not mean that one is correct in assuming their view of the situation is correct. I mean, white supremacists do FEEL that this or that minority is ruining their countries, their "traditional values" and all that kind of bullshit. Doesn't make that true, does it?

And I’ve said as much. She is probably wrong, but that’s how she felt. Honestly, I came here a few days after the match to ask if what happened on Saturday has happened before in a final, where a match descends into utter chaos at a time like that.  But after I read several comments worth of people completely rejecting Serena’s feelings, seeming to not at all give her at least some measure of the benefit of doubt, I had to point out the giant blind spot going on in here. This is literally my first comment:

On 9/10/2018 at 10:26 AM, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

It’s almost like none of you can empathize with the systemic sexism and racism the Williams sisters have experienced, and how Serena would see it through that lens in the moment. Yes she was behaving poorly, but the ref could have easily defused the situation and there was no need to give her a point penalty, especially in that moment. The most telling thing about the situation was that he didn’t come out during the trophy ceremony. He knee he messed up, and that crowd would have torn him to pieces for what he did.

Also, stop saying Serena stole Osaka’s moment. No one did more than her to defuse the situation after the fact. I know I wouldn’t have the ability to do what she did to calm the crowd down in the heat of the moment.

Look, right there I said she lost her mind, but I also said consider what triggered it. The complete and absolute dismissals indicated that people were not at least considering how see saw it. You can do so and then say she was wrong, but at least afford her that. It didn’t seem like anyone was doing so.

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46 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

As far as examples go, one needs only use Google to find a ton of examples of the ramifications of a tennis meltdown. Do players typically get punished? Yup. Does it cost them a point, a game and even get them tossed? Yup. What I can’t find is an example of it happen to a male in a championship that is comparable to what happened on Saturday. As you love to say, you know more about the sport than I, so tell me when it’s happened. I’ve asked several times and said I’ll change my mind if you can show me that it’s happened to marquee male players.

I'm sorry, how do you prove a negative again? In the first place, you have to prove that the marquee male players have actually done something similar to Serena and you can get your proof of whether the rules were applied to them or not. 

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19 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

But she was given a warning because of another person's actions, and most commentators I've seen have said they would not have done so. The point is that the transgression needs to be blatant to punish someone in a moment like that, 

Except this is completely false. Players get warnings for their coaches actions a lot. It's not a rare thing. Yes it's the coaches fault and not Serena's but her taking the punishment is completely normal. 

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5 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

Except this is completely false. Players get warnings for their coaches actions a lot. It's not a rare thing. Yes it's the coaches fault and not Serena's but her taking the punishment is completely normal. 

I get that, I just can’t recall seeing it in that kind of moment, though I’m sure it has happened before. And that gets to the root of providing examples. I have read several articles and watch some videos of famous blow ups and I’m just not finding anything that works as a fair comparison, for better or worse. What I am consistently seeing though is articles that claim that male players in the past have been given a pass for similar or worse behavior. That’s really all I have to go on given that I’m not a hardcore tennis purists. Furthermore, I’m wondering if the difference in opinion is cultural. The two biggest sports here are football and basketball, and you could call a penalty or foul on every play in those sports if you wanted to, hence the refs have discretion on how they want to enforce them. I think Ramos should have done that too, hence why I think it was wrong to give Serena a code violation in that moment, even if by the strict letter of the law he could have. But hey, don’t take my opinion, take Novak’s:

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“I have my personal opinion that maybe the chair umpire should not have pushed Serena to the limit, especially in a Grand Slam final,” he said. “Just maybe changed — not maybe, but he did change the course of the match. It was, in my opinion, maybe unnecessary. We all go through our emotions, especially when you’re fighting for a Grand Slam trophy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/09/10/he-did-change-the-course-of-the-match-novak-djokovic-sides-with-serena-williams-in-u-s-open-incident/?utm_term=.91eb9ca50723

Now it’s open to interpretation if he was talking about the coaching code violation, the last one that cost Serena a game or just the overall performance, and Novak did also say you have to empathize with the situation Ramos was in, but he did think he was wrong. And what I’ve been arguing, in part, is why is it so hard to see that Ramos also messed up?

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“I love Serena,” Djokovic said. “I really felt for her yesterday. It was a tough thing for a chair umpire to deal with as well. We have to empathise with him.

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“But I have my personal opinion that maybe the chair umpire should not have pushed Serena to the limit, especially in a Grand Slam final.

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“I don't see things as Mr Simon does,” he said. “I think men and women are treated in this way or the other way depending on the situation. It's hard to generalise things.”

/edited

I will just leave the quotes...

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So, Katrina Adams is also one of those backpedaling her support for Williams: (source: ESPN)

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USTA president and CEO Katrina Adams, who defended Williams, was overheard apologizing to Ramos on the sidelines of Thursday's draw ceremony.

Ramos wouldn't go into details over his discussion with Adams, who initiated the conversation.

"You know I cannot talk about that," Ramos said.

 

 

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So I really don't have any interest in continuing this conversation. You can feel how you'd like to feel. But just as a sign of good faith, here is a video of Fed talking back to the official, telling he doesn't know the rules, swearing at him and maybe I misheard him, but it sounded like he called him incompetent at the end. He is no where near as demonstrative as Serena was, but what he was saying is certainly in the same ball park if not worse. He did not receive a warning or a code violation, as far as I can tell. 

And I want to reiterate, I think it's unlikely that Ramos was being sexist, and if he was, it was at the extreme margins, and that Serena was losing it and behaved poorly. However, there is a wealth of research that looks into how women are treated when they're demonstrating anger and rage, and how it is looked upon worse than when a man does it. Here's a short podcast you can listen to if you'd like that was done in the wake of the match.

That's really all I have left to say about the topic.

 

 

On a side note, I saw a funny stat the other day. After the 2008 U.S. Open, the top three ATP players in the world were 1. Nadal, 2, Federer, and 3. Djokovic. After the 2018 U.S. Open, the top three ATP players in the world were 1. Nadal, 2. Federer, and 3. Djokovic. If that's correct IDK if it's good or bad for the sport, but it sure is funny. 

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53 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

But just as a sign of good faith, here is a video of Fed talking back to the official, telling he doesn't know the rules, swearing at him and maybe I misheard him, but it sounded like he called him incompetent at the end. He is no where near as demonstrative as Serena was, but what he was saying is certainly in the same ball park if not worse. He did not receive a warning or a code violation, as far as I can tell. 

Dear Lord and Heavens... You compare that with Serena's outburst? You compare Federer's mildly heated debate with Serena's rather hysterical outburst? Those two are not even in the same solar system. 

It is absolutely dishonest to claim that what Federer did in that video (with, btw, another judge) is worse than what Serena did. It just misses the ballpark and completely disregards what happens on both court.

Honestly, time and time again, this debate has gone from terrible to downright bizarre. Yes, now we are supposed to believe that this said in barely audible voice:

 

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Don't you have any rules for this? I wasn't allowed to challenge after two seconds. The guy takes, like, 10. You can't allow that stuff to happen."

"Don't tell me to be quiet, OK? When I want to talk, I talk. I don't give a s*** what he said."

 

is somehow worse than:

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"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you’re sorry.”

which was said in such loud and threatening voice that she used her finger to point at an umpire and was loud enough to be heard from microphones meters away.

 

But, that is the gist of this debate. We can't find anything to support our claim, so we are going to say that Ramos is sexist, which he isn't and the argument everyone who originally supported Serena somehow backpedaled and to compare someone like Federer, who has overall pristine career and claim that his annoyed, borderline quiet claim is somehow the same.

But, I do agree it is better to leave it here... 

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1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

On a side note, I saw a funny stat the other day. After the 2008 U.S. Open, the top three ATP players in the world were 1. Nadal, 2, Federer, and 3. Djokovic. After the 2018 U.S. Open, the top three ATP players in the world were 1. Nadal, 2. Federer, and 3. Djokovic. If that's correct IDK if it's good or bad for the sport, but it sure is funny. 

I think it's pretty unanimous amongst fans that it has been good for the sport overall. Maybe the absolute level of domination, which is only really understood when you look at how the Big Four have dominated the ATP tour in total (which also explains why more people talk about the Big Four than Big Three), has been a bit stifling at times, but the rivalries are all truly memorable and we've had so many classic matches. 

Compare that to the women's game. We've had Serena dominating, and players frustratingly struggle to sustain top level form. Sharapova famously has a ridiculously bad head to head record, considering she's a five time slam winner. Justine Henin's retirement was the biggest hit to the women's game. She was a real match for Serena- their head to head is 8-6 to Serena, but 4-3 to Henin in slams. She's actually only a few months older than Serena, but a chronic elbow injury finished her off a long time ago. 

It's funny, because traditionally women's tennis has been the one dominated by a few rivals, and men's has had more different winners. I really think rivalries like Evert v Martina and Graff v Seles did a lot to promote the women's game.  

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10 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I think it's pretty unanimous amongst fans that it has been good for the sport overall. Maybe the absolute level of domination, which is only really understood when you look at how the Big Four have dominated the ATP tour in total (which also explains why more people talk about the Big Four than Big Three), has been a bit stifling at times, but the rivalries are all truly memorable and we've had so many classic matches. 

I don't see it as a positive. It's really not good for the sport IMO when the current youngest slam winner will be 30 in two weeks and that anyone younger even winning a Masters is so rare.

Anyway, a bit more factual info in regards to the Serena situation - Ramos apparently received an apology from the USTA president and the article has some interesting data regarding violations given by umpires during the last 20 years in Grand Slams: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/ramos-returns-to-chair-after-serena-dramas-as-stats-back-him-up-20180914-p503ot.html

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In a TV interview the day after the final, Adams told the ESPN tennis panel that "there's no equality". But her claims were soon undermined by statistics showing there were 86 code violations handed out to male players at the US Open and only 22 to women.

Now, a more detailed analysis of the past 20 years of grand slam events has revealed a long-term split of 1,534 to 526.

Different offences have a different gender balance. Take racquet abuse, which constituted the second of Williams' three offences.

Men are responsible for more than 86 per cent of these code violations, as well as just under 80 per cent of verbal-abuse violations.

The odd one out here is coaching.

This kicked the whole controversy off, when Patrick Mouratoglou signalled that Williams should move to the net more often. In this area, women are almost twice as likely as men to be censured.

Some have overbearing father-coaches, such as Carolina Garcia's father Louis-Paul, who kept signalling to her during last year's Wimbledon.

Others may be conditioned to look for mid-match support by the on-court coaching rule used at Women's Tennis Association tournaments, which allows a coach to visit his or her player at one changeover per set.

Our statistics do not differentiate between tournaments before and after 2009, the year when on-court coaching was introduced on the WTA tour.

Now, someone would probably try to spin the coaching violation part as unfair to female players and ignore the rest, but from what I've watched, there are just more coaches who ignore the rules on that in the women's game. It was so widespread that WTA decided to allow coaching during change of ends, while ATP has never considered such a possibility as far as I know.

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So male coaches or family members feel the need to illegally coach female players more than they do male players. That’s an interesting display of sexism right there, although nothing to do with the umpire of course.

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28 minutes ago, john said:

So male coaches or family members feel the need to illegally coach female players more than they do male players. That’s an interesting display of sexism right there, although nothing to do with the umpire of course.

A lot of that is probably due to age difference, female players become pros and start playing at the very top level at a much earlier age on average than male players. 

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2 hours ago, David Selig said:

I don't see it as a positive. It's really not good for the sport IMO when the current youngest slam winner will be 30 in two weeks and that anyone younger even winning a Masters is so rare.

Anyway, a bit more factual info in regards to the Serena situation - Ramos apparently received an apology from the USTA president and the article has some interesting data regarding violations given by umpires during the last 20 years in Grand Slams: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/ramos-returns-to-chair-after-serena-dramas-as-stats-back-him-up-20180914-p503ot.html

Now, someone would probably try to spin the coaching violation part as unfair to female players and ignore the rest, but from what I've watched, there are just more coaches who ignore the rules on that in the women's game. It was so widespread that WTA decided to allow coaching during change of ends, while ATP has never considered such a possibility as far as I know.

Yeah, at this point it isn't looking good. Not only are all the star players over thirty, but the next lot aren't young- Del Potro is 29, Anderson is 32, Cilic is 29, Tsonga is 33... I think when Roger retires there's going to be a huge wave of retirement in a couple of years, and I bet the bean counters are worried about falling attendances, both in person and on tv. 

I mean, there is sexism in tennis. Like all the scrutiny of Murray having a female coach, Mauresmo. That doesn't mean every time a woman is penalised, it's due to sexism. This is like the OJ case, a lot of the argument was whether he was innocent and the police were racist, or he's guilty and the police aren't racist. Of course, there was a lot of racism in policing, but that doesn't stop black people committing murders. 

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17 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Yeah, at this point it isn't looking good. Not only are all the star players over thirty, but the next lot aren't young- Del Potro is 29, Anderson is 32, Cilic is 29, Tsonga is 33... I think when Roger retires there's going to be a huge wave of retirement in a couple of years, and I bet the bean counters are worried about falling attendances, both in person and on tv.

Tennis administrators have got to be worried about the impending wave of retirements, not just the top four but the other regular fan favourites and recognisable names are all the same age (as mentioned, Tsonga, Del Potro, Cilic, etc).

Some of the next generation are thoroughly unlikeable like Kyrgios. There are potential superstars in Thiem, Zverev, Edmund, Chung and Coric - who are the current members of the top 30 who are about the right age (25 or under). But the truth is, the average tennis fan only really follows the Grand Slams, so these guys need to be consistently reaching the semis to get name-recognition and none of them are really doing it yet.

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  • 4 months later...

Novak still on track. I don’t think Roger will win another major. So every one Djokovic wins now closes that gap. If he could do two this year, two next year and one each in years three and four he could equal Federer in 4 years time. Not impossible.

But if I had to bet right now, I would say he will end on 18 majors.

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