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Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!


Mladen

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1 hour ago, Gronzag said:

She is the greatest female tennis player ever.

Most dominant female basketball or football player would never be considered the very best in that sport.

First, that's a bit myopic. There are some sports where that's true, but tennis isn't necessarily one of them. Serena has more championships and has meant more to the sport than any of the big three (sorry Andy). It's not absurd to argue that's she's the greatest tennis player as well as possibly the most important player.

Second, you clearly must not have a lot of women in your life that play sports at a high level. They hate being called "female (insert sport) player."

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On the other hand, Serena would highly unlikely to be competitive against any of the top 100 men's players.

I seem to recall she utterly failing to beat a drunk guy with a broken wrist who was something like 200th.

 

There are valid reasons to think she's the greatest tennis player of all time.

There are valid reasons to think that at her peak, there were several hundred better tennis players, and several thousand who have been better than her during her career.

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7 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

On the other hand, Serena would highly unlikely to be competitive against any of the top 100 men's players.

I seem to recall she utterly failing to beat a drunk guy with a broken wrist who was something like 200th.

It was Braasch versus both Williams sisters after they claimed they could beat any male player outside 200. He was ranked 203rd and defeated Serena 6-1 and defeated Venus 6-2.

I have no qualms about declaring Serena Williams the greatest female tennis player of all time. Her record speaks for itself and she's clearly a brilliant player, and can easily lay a claim to having the most powerful game in women's tennis of all time.

Whether I personally like her has nothing to do with whether I respect her as a player. I think she can be a sore loser, she abuses umpires, and there have been numerous incidents over the years to show that this is a character trait and not a couple of minor blowups.

In my experience I have found that the Serena like/dislike tends to be polarised along American/non-American lines. The media coverage tends to be too, so it's probably not that surprising. Of the Osaka debacle last year, pretty much the only commentary defending Serena was from the US. And while race/sex probably does play a role with regards to Serena, consider that Jimmy Connors was a white male who was probably viewed somewhat similarly - Americans loved him to bits but non-Americans thought he was a great player but a brat.

 

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16 minutes ago, Jeor said:

In my experience I have found that the Serena like/dislike tends to be polarised along American/non-American lines. The media coverage tends to be too, so it's probably not that surprising. Of the Osaka debacle last year, pretty much the only commentary defending Serena was from the US. And while race/sex probably does play a role with regards to Serena, consider that Jimmy Connors was a white male who was probably viewed somewhat similarly - Americans loved him to bits but non-Americans thought he was a great player but a brat.

 

Pretty much, although I’d add that a lot of older Americans hate her too. People can point to her being a diva, but really at the heart of it, it’s all about race and high society. I became a member of three country clubs the day I was born, so I know how these types behave, and trust me, it took a long time for many of them to come around to both Williams sisters.   

Also, I really wouldn’t call it the “Osaka debacle.” It’s not like Serena had any negative motives towards her, and she defended her from the crowd after the fact. If you’re a ref/ump/official, you cannot be the story, especially in a final. It’s why I also said I wouldn’t have called that handball in the CL final.

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On 6/4/2019 at 4:49 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Actually there’s a lot to like about her. Who cares if she’s a diva. A lot of the men’s players are too. It just so happens that the top three guys over the last two decades are robots. That’s not in line with the history of the sport. You just hand waved away the greatest tennis player ever. Think about that for a minute and then what makes this player different from all the over all-time greats.  

She's not a diva, she's an asshole.

Do you remember any other tennis player, man or woman, who demanded another player be removed from the press room because they were in a hurry?

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19 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Also, I really wouldn’t call it the “Osaka debacle.” It’s not like Serena had any negative motives towards her, and she defended her from the crowd after the fact. If you’re a ref/ump/official, you cannot be the story, especially in a final. It’s why I also said I wouldn’t have called that handball in the CL final.

I also wouldn't call it "Osaka debacle", It was Serena debacle, when she showed very publicly what a hypocrite she is. And a liar. And a sore loser. And a disrespectful asshole. 

That of course has nothing to do with her talent. But, simply, she is not an athlete I would consider a role model. Even though I assume for many Americans she is. 

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

I also wouldn't call it "Osaka debacle", It was Serena debacle, when she showed very publicly what a hypocrite she is. And a liar. And a sore loser. And a disrespectful asshole. 

That of course has nothing to do with her talent. But, simply, she is not an athlete I would consider a role model. Even though I assume for many Americans she is. 

I’m sorry that you lack the ability to see the world through someone else’s eyes. You proved that very clearly last time we spoke here.

And to claim that she isn’t a role model is among the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard.  

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On 6/4/2019 at 11:50 PM, Tywin et al. said:

First, that's a bit myopic. There are some sports where that's true, but tennis isn't necessarily one of them. Serena has more championships and has meant more to the sport than any of the big three (sorry Andy). It's not absurd to argue that's she's the greatest tennis player as well as possibly the most important player.

Second, you clearly must not have a lot of women in your life that play sports at a high level. They hate being called "female (insert sport) player."

So, if there was a dominant player in a Filipino basketball league who led his team to 7 championships, then you would considered him greater than Jordan? That is your logic. Never mind the quality of the competition.

And she is certainly not more important for tennis than Federer. Men are carrying the sport.

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20 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

So, if there was a dominant player in a Filipino basketball league who led his team to 7 championships, then you would considered him greater than Jordan? That is your logic. Never mind the quality of the competition.

Lol, that’s an awful analogy.  

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And she is certainly not more important for tennis than Federer. Men are carrying the sport.

Federer might not even be the best of his era. Nadal came and ate his lunch, and the Joker might be technically better than both of them. And if we’re going to say that Serena played against inferior talent, let’s not forget that Feds did too for the early stretch of his run.  

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3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m sorry that you lack the ability to see the world through someone else’s eyes. You proved that very clearly last time we spoke here.

And to claim that she isn’t a role model is among the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard.  

As I said, I understand that many people see her as a role model. I don't. I think that she showed who she really is during US 2018 finals.

When people show you who they really are, trust them. Serena showed who she is. And I believe her. 

I am very sorry that goes against the image you have in your head.

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Federer might not even be the best of his era. Nadal came and ate his lunch, and the Joker might be technically better than both of them. And if we’re going to say that Serena played against inferior talent, let’s not forget that Feds did too for the early stretch of his run.  

That still doesn't mean Serena is more important than Federer for tennis. As for that matter, that also counts for Djokovic and Nadal. Simply, Federer influenced the sport like no one has before him. He popularized the sport that the money players earn these days have doubled from the days Federer started. He is a true role model, someone who respects people of all statures. - from archenemies to the ball children on court. He served an example to many of the players who are currently on Tour. And he didn't do that just by winning. Winning makes you Great. Something else makes you Legend. That is a difference between Serena and Roger. And Rafa and Roger. And Novak and Roger. 

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12 minutes ago, Risto said:

That still doesn't mean Serena is more important than Federer for tennis. As for that matter, that also counts for Djokovic and Nadal. Simply, Federer influenced the sport like no one has before him. He popularized the sport that the money players earn these days have doubled from the days Federer started.

In the 16 years since Federer won his first major, the total Wimbledon prize pool increased from 8.8 million pounds to 34 million (2002-2018).  Which sounds really great, except the increase slightly less than the increase seen in the 16 years before that (1986-2002), from 2.1 million pounds to 8.8 million.  So I have trouble attributing the increase in popularity as entirely or even mostly the result of Federer.  Perhaps less reserved champs like Agassi were a little more captivating? 

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6 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

In the 16 years since Federer won his first major, the total Wimbledon prize pool increased from 8.8 million pounds to 34 million (2002-2018).  Which sounds really great, except the increase slightly less than the increase seen in the 16 years before that (1986-2002), from 2.1 million pounds to 8.8 million.  So I have trouble attributing the increase in popularity as entirely or even mostly the result of Federer.  Perhaps less reserved champs like Agassi were a little more captivating? 

I doubt prize money makes up the majority of what top tennis players earn anymore. 

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19 minutes ago, Risto said:

As I said, I understand that many people see her as a role model. I don't. I think that she showed who she really is during US 2018 finals.

When people show you who they really are, trust them. Serena showed who she is. And I believe her. 

I am very sorry that goes against the image you have in your head.

Lol. It doesn’t go against any image I have of her. I said she’s a diva and she can blow up at times. It’s you who holds her to a different standard.

My issue, specifically with you, is that you completely reject trying to have any degree of empathy for her. I asked you to close your eyes, imagine that you’re a black woman who lived in the hood of all hoods in the U.S., and that you came up through a sport that is soaked in racism, sexism and classism, and that given all that, can you imagine that you might blow up in a heated moment when you feel you are being mistreated for the reasons I laid out. You categorically refused to do that, called the official a brave man, and said that Serena is a brat, a jerk, and she should shut her mouth.

Not a good look, dude.

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That still doesn't mean Serena is more important than Federer for tennis. As for that matter, that also counts for Djokovic and Nadal. Simply, Federer influenced the sport like no one has before him. He popularized the sport that the money players earn these days have doubled from the days Federer started. He is a true role model, someone who respects people of all statures. - from archenemies to the ball children on court. He served an example to many of the players who are currently on Tour. And he didn't do that just by winning. Winning makes you Great. Something else makes you Legend. That is a difference between Serena and Roger. And Rafa and Roger. And Novak and Roger. 

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Fed's rise coincided with the Williams Sisters', and the latter is probably more likely to increase the sport's market share.

Also, I will not apologize for liking athletes with personalities.

:P

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20 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I doubt prize money makes up the majority of what top tennis players earn anymore. 

I think Forbes came out with Serena being worth about a quarter of a billion dollars. Her prize money was like $80m. I’m sure it’s the same for all the top players (not amount but proportion).

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43 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Fed's rise coincided with the Williams Sisters', and the latter is probably more likely to increase the sport's market share.

If you truly believe that nonsense, than you are delusional.

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2 hours ago, Gronzag said:

If you truly believe that nonsense, than you are delusional.

I would compare the Williams sisters to Tiger. They opened doors to new audiences that previously had no interest in their respective sports. Federer, OTOH, was just the next great men's player. I'm not sure how much impact he had individually with expanding the game that wouldn't have naturally occurred. If you want to make that argument, I think you also have to include Nadal. Their rivalry had more impact than either of their individual activities. 

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would compare the Williams sisters to Tiger. They opened doors to new audiences that previously had no interest in their respective sports. Federer, OTOH, was just the next great men's player. I'm not sure how much impact he had individually with expanding the game that wouldn't have naturally occurred. If you want to make that argument, I think you also have to include Nadal. Their rivalry had more impact than either of their individual activities. 

I am sorry, but you have no idea how irrelevant the williams sisters are outside of the US. There is no comparison between the effect federer had on tennis and them. And there were several women that had probably bigger impact in their time than them… Look at henin or sharapova for exemple.  

And I am not even talking about how outside of the US people don t like serena's diva atitude… I don t Forget the conspiracies they araised against henin because she was simply the best. It was really sad to watch...

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25 minutes ago, divica said:

I am sorry, but you have no idea how irrelevant the williams sisters are outside of the US. There is no comparison between the effect federer had on tennis and them. And there were several women that had probably bigger impact in their time than them… Look at henin or sharapova for exemple.  

And I am not even talking about how outside of the US people don t like serena's diva atitude… I don t Forget the conspiracies they araised against henin because she was simply the best. It was really sad to watch...

I can't find any hard data on viewership and ratings, but I think it's fair to guess that there's been greater growth in the U.S. than in Europe over the last 25 years, and Williams sisters would play a huge role in that. And that, in turn, brings people to the men's game as well, which leads to greater revenues. 

You're right to say they aren't as relevant outside of the U.S*., though you go to far, but you seem to fail to understand the economic driver the U.S. can be. 


*You could also flip that argument around. The directionality goes both ways. It always blows my mind that Nadal and Novak have like no marketing effect here.

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