Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, David Selig said:

Serena being American certainly explains some of the defending from the US media, but her being a black woman is a much bigger reason IMO.  Mainstream US media loves to stoke the outrage of the progressives, be "on the right side of history", and get some sweet clicks in the process. If it was a male US tennis player acting this way on the court he wouldn't have been defended much and if he had said that female players get away with this stuff all the time and he's just fighting for men's rights and equality he would have been crucified by the US media.

This is some really bizarre logic. The umpire correctly enforced the rules. Even Serena's coach himself admitted he was coaching from the stands and signalling to Serena. Why the hell would the umpire apologise for correctly enforcing the rules of the game?

I think the most important thing is that she's rich and famous, the group who always have the most privilege. It would be interesting to see what the reaction of the Serena backers would be if a white male player said to a black female umpire "You will never, be on another court of mine". 

Sadly it's often true in the media that Serena is seen just as her race and gender, many articles on her seem to have little interest in the actual tennis she plays. 

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Oh, no, it is not subjective. Serena claimed that the code doesn't exist and that she has never been coached. Given the fact thather coach was caught red-handed, the logic dictates that she lied.

It may be a silly rule, but it is a rule for reason. Outside factors should not influence a tennis match. That is why they silence the audience, why they are alone on the playfield. The match is between two individuals, not their coaches and whoever sits in their boxes.

It didn't look like he did anything in a "code". As soon as the clip was shown, the commentators said, and I think most of us thought, that he was gesturing for her to move up the court, it's a pretty universal gesture. 

If they did have a half decent code, for example "I touch my cap" or "I scratch my ear", she almost certainly would have gotten away with it. 

The real issue is that she keeps saying the umpire said she cheated, which he didn't. He said her coach tried to coach her, which we all know is true.

[Mladen]

12 minutes ago, john said:

He wasn’t caught red handed.  He just said he did it. There were no images showing him gesturing with Serena in direct line of sight or anything like that.

This is my issue. Ramos sees something and gives Serena a warning. The gesture indeed happened as we have coach admitting that he was well, indeed coaching. He also said that he has always been coaching.

Serena went mad because she believes Ramos accused her of cheating. He negates this calming the situation. During the exchange, Serena attempts to hold moral highground by saying that there is no "code", that she would not cheat etc, etc.

And that is where Serena's moral highground crumbles. She could have said "No, I didn't see it.". She said "there is no code" And had not her coach admitted that he was coaching her, probably most of us would side with her on that one. But, she lied. Even if she hadn't seen the coaching or wasn't aware of it in that particular moment, she was not above coaching. And she was lying about the existence of coded messages between her and her box, as her coach said there was some coaching.

8 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I think the most important thing is that she's rich and famous, the group who always have the most privilege. It would be interesting to see what the reaction of the Serena backers would be if a white male player said to a black female umpire "You will never, be on another court of mine". 

When I heard her words, I was truly outraged. Let we not forget that many players, especially the likes of Serena or Sharapowa or Novak, Federer and Nadal are wealthier and more powerful than any of the umpires. Unfortunately for Serena, a wrong man umpired her match that day. He is an umpire that doesn't take a crap from anyone and that is why Serena's bullying had nothing to do with sexism or racism or whatever issue she had came up with since then.

 

[Mladen]

I was searching on YT to see Ramos officiating matches against male players...

Ramos v Djokovic

Djokovic slanders Ramos in Serbian, knowing Ramos can't understand him and he did something with his racket.

Djokovic gets warning.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Wow, there’s a lot of nonsense to clean up here, and the soft xenophobia was a nice touch.

4 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I think we shall be waiting a long time for this example.

Come on dude. Have you ever seen me argue in bad faith. There are so many examples of men freaking out and it didn’t cost them a game. In the championship. That gave their opponent the match. And I say that as someone who thought Osaka was going to win anyways.  The point is the ref should have never injected himself in the manner in which he did, and is fair to argue that there was bias involved. There is endless amount of data that show this, and all I’ve said is you’ve got to look at it from her perspective too. It’s pretty easy to see how a black woman from the hood would feel mistreated in a rich white man’s sport, especially when it has happened on several occasions, including quite recently.

 

Just look at his:

13 hours ago, Risto said:

I really hate bullied and Serena and New York crowd was one giant bully. These umpires, they are supposed to umpire the players who are richer than they are, more prominent than they are. Between Serena and Ramos, he was the one downtrodden. He was facing someone who believed the title was hers and she was ready to get it, by any means necessary. Ramos, unfortunately for her, is not the one to be afraid of the big names. 

It would have been much better game of tennis had Serena not acted the way she did. His hands were tied by the guidebook. And honestly, instead of praising this man's courage to clash with any player, regardless of money and stardom, we are supposed to defend a bully? 

I mean, WTF is this if not male privilege? 

Oh boohoo, Serena is rich, so therefore she has to take his abuse? Get out of here with this ignorant nonsense. The man is probably paid too, and it doesn’t change the fact that in this moment, he had the POWER,  and he used it when he shouldn’t have.

All I’ve said is if you look at it from her perspective, you would be more understanding. And all most of you have done is refused to do so.

Shocking that women and minorities feel mistreated, and perceive slights being based off of race and gender….

 

 

[lessthanluke]

No you usually do argue in good faith BUT until you show one example of a male player acting like Serena did and getting away with it then your argument here simply has no merit.

 

You keep saying there are so many examples, so just pick one.

I sympathise with Serena, I am also a massive fan but to say that if a man had done the same things as her they wouldn't have been punished is just nonsense.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

When I heard her words, I was truly outraged. Let we not forget that many players, especially the likes of Serena or Sharapowa or Novak, Federer and Nadal are wealthier and more powerful than any of the umpires. Unfortunately for Serena, a wrong man umpired her match that day. He is an umpire that doesn't take a crap from anyone and that is why Serena's bullying had nothing to do with sexism or racism or whatever issue she had came up with since then.

This all comes down to collective v individual identity. If you just see Serena as "a black woman", and the umpire as "a white man", he has the upper hand. 

But if you actually view them as individuals, you can see that she is the rich, famous, powerful one in this situation. Any racial or gender privilege he may have is blown out the water by the fact that she is universally seen as a living legend. And this is obvious to most of us from the language she used-

"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you’re sorry.”

Is that how you'd speak to someone you perceive as an inferior, or a superior? 

It's a sad fact in this world that some people will never see you for the person you are, they will only ever see your skin colour and/or your gender. 

[Mladen]

14 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I mean, WTF is this if not male privilege? 

Male privilege? I am sorry, but you will have to find some other target here... I proud myself to be a feminist. Serena was not on side of women that night, she argued sexism for her own selfish reasons.

16 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Oh boohoo, Serena is rich, so therefore she has to take his abuse? Get out of here with this ignorant nonsense. The man is probably paid too, and it doesn’t change the fact that in this moment, he had the POWER,  and he used it when he shouldn’t have.

The argument you have made, and the one that she made that night, was one that he would never do that to a male player. He did. He sanctioned male players of Serena's caliber without any problems. Unlike her, they didn't attack him. 

Serena promised him that we will never be on "court of hers" If that is not entitlement, if that is not a threat, I don't know what is.

18 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

All I’ve said is if you look at it from her perspective, you would be more understanding. And all most of you have done is refused to do so.

What perspective is that? Was she aware of what kind of umpire he is? Yes, she was. Was  she aware that he will punish players in strict accordance with the rules? Yes, she was. Did she know that breaking a racket is a violation? Of course, she did. Did she know that verbally attacking umpire is also considered a violation? Yes, she was.

She didn't lose a game because Ramos punished her coaching. It was only first strike, then second came and then the third.  Serena could have evaded all of this.

I understand her, I truly do. I do believe it was unfortunate situation. But she was not a victim that night. She said some things that were very hard to swallow. And she was rightfully sanctioned.

 

[baxus]

Serena Williams behaved like a spoilt brat. Whoever tries to claim otherwise has utterly failed to grasp the concept of sportsmanship.

Her fine was laughable, too. How pointless is it to fine someone 1-2% of their winnings in the tournament?

She got off with a slap on her wrist because she's so popular which is sending a completely wrong message. To add insult to injury, her attempts to find excuses in sexism and racism are despicable.

EDIT:

There's no person in the world who ever stepped out on any court/pitch/track/whatever that didn't lose their temper. It happens and is normal. How you react after you get cautioned by the officials makes all the difference.

[mankytoes]

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Come on dude. Have you ever seen me argue in bad faith. There are so many examples of men freaking out and it didn’t cost them a game. In the championship. That gave their opponent the match. And I say that as someone who thought Osaka was going to win anyways.  The point is the ref should have never injected himself in the manner in which he did, and is fair to argue that there was bias involved. There is endless amount of data that show this, and all I’ve said is you’ve got to look at it from her perspective too. It’s pretty easy to see how a black woman from the hood would feel mistreated in a rich white man’s sport, especially when it has happened on several occasions, including quite recently.

To be fair, it isn't just you. We've heard many prominent people claim there is a double standard, and none of them have given a single example. I don't think people are deliberately lying, I think they're echoing each other, but it's pretty funny that people have clearly done some research and realised there isn't a single clear example of a man acting similarly and not being punished, certainly not with this umpire. Or we would definitely be seeing it shared on twitter. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, Risto said:

Male privilege? I am sorry, but you will have to find some other target here... I proud myself to be a feminist. Serena was not on side of women that night, she argued sexism for her own selfish reasons.

I mean......

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The argument you have made, and the one that she made that night, was one that he would never do that to a male player. He did. He sanctioned male players of Serena's caliber without any problems. Unlike her, they didn't attack him. 

Serena promised him that we will never be on "court of hers" If that is not entitlement, if that is not a threat, I don't know what is.

Well actually Nadal did attack him in that exact fashion, and again, there's a huge difference between sanctioning them in a vacuum and costing them a slam. I highly doubt he would have done that to an elite male player. If he has, show me. Furthermore, if it’s ever happened like that, show me. I’m not a tennis purist, but I’ve never seen it outside of times when McEnroe lost his mind, which was his wont.   

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What perspective is that? Was she aware of what kind of umpire he is? Yes, she was. Was  she aware that he will punish players in strict accordance with the rules? Yes, she was. Did she know that breaking a racket is a violation? Of course, she did. Did she know that verbally attacking umpire is also considered a violation? Yes, she was.

She didn't lose a game because Ramos punished her coaching. It was only first strike, then second came and then the third.  Serena could have evaded all of this.

I understand her, I truly do. I do believe it was unfortunate situation. But she was not a victim that night. She said some things that were very hard to swallow. And she was rightfully sanctioned.

Omg. Are you even trying? That of a black woman who has experienced racism and sexism in a sport known for its racism and sexism. So no, clearly you don’t understand what she was feeling. Go look at the bolded from up top. She felt like she was the victim of sexism. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn’t, but you jumped to the worse conclusion that she was using it for her benefit, which is exactly what she’s been fighting against, and what I’ve been trying to explain about unconscious biases.

Be better man.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, baxus said:

There's no person in the world who ever stepped out on any court/pitch/track/whatever that didn't lose their temper. It happens and is normal. How you react after you get cautioned by the officials makes all the difference.

True, but the circumstances matter as well. If had happened in the first step, whatever. I’d still argue it was wrong, but it would have had less of an impact on the game. If the same thing happened in the third round, again, whatever. Would have argued it was wrong, but wouldn’t be dug in on it. If it happened in the championship of a non-slam, I wouldn’t care at all. But it happened in the championship of a slam that could have led to her tying a historic record. You don’t over insert yourself as a ref/ump/official  in that situation unless it’s unavoidable, and in this case it wasn’t. And if you put yourself in her shoes, you can understand how and why she reacted the way she did. She got a BS warning on coaching and it went off the rails from there. I’ve never said she didn’t misbehave. She did. But so did the official, who started all of the chaos, and it’s shocking that you guys are ignoring that.

[john]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

And that is where Serena's moral highground crumbles. She could have said "No, I didn't see it.". She said "there is no code" And had not her coach admitted that he was coaching her, probably most of us would side with her on that one. But, she lied. Even if she hadn't seen the coaching or wasn't aware of it in that particular moment, she was not above coaching. And she was lying about the existence of coded messages between her and her box, as her coach said there was some coaching.

Why do you assume there were some sort of secret signals?  I assumed Mouratoglou just used some sort of general gesture he made up at the time. Nobody has to be lying.

8 minutes ago, baxus said:

There's no person in the world who ever stepped out on any court/pitch/track/whatever that didn't lose their temper. It happens and is normal. How you react after you get cautioned by the officials makes all the difference.

And that’s why officials are usually tolerant when their decisions can be open to interpretation.  It helps keep the game controlled and is better for the spectators.  I’m not saying Ramos did anything wrong but it’s not a style that I prefer.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I mean......

Did she argue it for anything else but her own benefit? No one denies there is sexism in sports, tennis included, but not on that court, not with that umpire, not in that situation.

And just so we are clear, attacking someone who can't defend oneself is in rather poor taste. 

5 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Well actually Nadal did attack him in that exact fashion, and again, there's a huge difference between sanctioning them in a vacuum and costing them a slam.

What did Nadal exactly tell him? No, please quote Nadal and then quote Serena. Or better, provide with the video. I have provided a video in which Ramos gave Novak a warning for things he said in Serbian. So, no, there is no difference in Ramos' playbook. 

7 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I highly doubt he would have done that to an elite male player.

He has done that to Nadal on Roland Garros and he has done that to Novak. Save for Federer, you don't get more elite than those two.

Also, he didn't cost her a slam. You forget that the set Serena lost due to penalty was on Osaka serve and that Osaka already had 4-3. So, Ramos didn't help Osaka. Naomi was kicking Serena's ass all by herself.

12 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Omg. Are you even trying? That of a black woman who has experienced racism and sexism in a sport known for its racism and sexism. So no, clearly you don’t understand what she was feeling. Go look at the bolded from up top. She felt like she was the victim of sexism. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn’t, but you jumped to the worse conclusion that she was using it for her benefit, which is exactly what she’s been fighting against, and what I’ve been trying to explain about unconscious biases.

 Be better man.

Wow, OK... Thanks for advice...

I can understand that position had it be only on court. Had Serena attacked him on court and all of it ended there, I would be "OK, heat of the moment, understandable" But, fully aware that Ramos is not a sexist, she continued that narrative after the match and throughout these past two/three days. So, yes, I do believe Serena knows Ramos is not sexist.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

To be fair, it isn't just you. We've heard many prominent people claim there is a double standard, and none of them have given a single example. I don't think people are deliberately lying, I think they're echoing each other, but it's pretty funny that people have clearly done some research and realised there isn't a single clear example of a man acting similarly and not being punished, certainly not with this umpire. Or we would definitely be seeing it shared on twitter. 

It’s not about not being punished. It’s about it being that extreme, followed by the total and complete dismissal of the fact that she felt it was sexist. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. None of us can really know. But she is saying that’s how she took it, and saying she is doing that for selfish gains is gross when she was clearly weeping and affected by it. None of it needed to happen, and ALL of it ruined Osaka’s coming out party.

[lessthanluke]

20 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

. She did. But so did the official, who started all of the chaos, and it’s shocking that you guys are ignoring that.

I don't think people are ignoring it. They just don't agree with you.

[mankytoes]

3 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

It’s not about not being punished. It’s about it being that extreme, followed by the total and complete dismissal of the fact that she felt it was sexist. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. None of us can really know. But she is saying that’s how she took it, and saying she is doing that for selfish gains is gross when she was clearly weeping and affected by it. None of it needed to happen, and ALL of it ruined Osaka’s coming out party.

Is it fair to say you don't watch a huge amount of tennis? These tactics are pretty much part of the game. Making noise, slowing the game, anything to knock the other player off their stride. Tennis is extremely psychological. Serena is extremely competitive, or she wouldn't still be playing. 

Lets make one thing crystal clear, no one gave the match to Osaka, Osaka won it, despite facing extremely psychologically difficult (whether you think Serena was being cynical at all or not) circumstances. If you watched Serena's semi, she got eight games in a row against a very technically strong Latvian. Serena is never beaten until she's beaten, she comes from behind all the time. A couple of points Osaka actually outpowered Serena, and that is really rare to see. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Did she argue it for anything else but her own benefit? No one denies there is sexism in sports, tennis included, but not on that court, not with that umpire, not in that situation.

And just so we are clear, attacking someone who can't defend oneself is in rather poor taste. 

We don’t know that though, and everything exists on a spectrum. It is quite possible that the man isn’t a sexists while at the same time reacting more harshly to a black woman than he would to a white woman, and more so than he would have done to a man. There is so much data on this issue that suggests it’s at least possible. And that’s what she likely felt. She could be wrong, but it’s also wrong to deny that she has legitimacy to feel that way.

Also, why do you keep saying the official can’t defend himself? He has the power in that situation. And he happily used it.  

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What did Nadal exactly tell him? No, please quote Nadal and then quote Serena. Or better, provide with the video. I have provided a video in which Ramos gave Novak a warning for things he said in Serbian. So, no, there is no difference in Ramos' playbook. 

Is Nadal not the one who said Ramos will never officiate a match of his again?

A quick Google search has all kinds of things. My biggest takeaway is that players don’t like this guy very much, lol.   

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He has done that to Nadal on Roland Garros and he has done that to Novak. Save for Federer, you don't get more elite than those two.

At that point in the match?

Again, timing matters, as I laid out in a different post. If it was 2-2 in the first set, it wouldn’t be as big of a deal.    

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Also, he didn't cost her a slam. You forget that the set Serena lost due to penalty was on Osaka serve and that Osaka already had 4-3. So, Ramos didn't help Osaka. Naomi was kicking Serena's ass all by herself.

He made it 5-3 with Serena down a set. That’s putting a thumb on the scale and you know it.

And for what it’s worth, I do think Osaka would have won anyways. Her path was made a lot easier though.     

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Wow, OK... Thanks for advice...

I can understand that position had it be only on court. Had Serena attacked him on court and all of it ended there, I would be "OK, heat of the moment, understandable" But, fully aware that Ramos is not a sexist, she continued that narrative after the match and throughout these past two/three days. So, yes, I do believe Serena knows Ramos is not sexist

Because that’s how she feels, and castigating the worst aspersions on her because you can’t empathize with that is not cool. She could be wrong, but outright dismissing it is not the play to make if you’re a self-described feminist.

1 hour ago, lessthanluke said:

I don't think people are ignoring it. They just don't agree with you.

How so? Serena sure as hell didn’t. If the official feels the need to be a stickler for the rules, warn her box, not the player.

Again, no spectator has ever watched a sporting event to see the ref ref.

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

Is it fair to say you don't watch a huge amount of tennis? These tactics are pretty much part of the game. Making noise, slowing the game, anything to knock the other player off their stride. Tennis is extremely psychological. Serena is extremely competitive, or she wouldn't still be playing. 

I mainly just watch the slams, but I know it’s a psychological game. If you want to be cynical you can say her response to the first warning was playing to the crowd. But when she was out there balling to the higher ups that came onto the court? Nah, that was authentic, and I’m sure she meant what she said.

And since we’re talking about the psychology of the match, think about the impact that had on her for the final few games.

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Lets make one thing crystal clear, no one gave the match to Osaka, Osaka won it, despite facing extremely psychologically difficult (whether you think Serena was being cynical at all or not) circumstances. If you watched Serena's semi, she got eight games in a row against a very technically strong Latvian. Serena is never beaten until she's beaten, she comes from behind all the time. A couple of points Osaka actually outpowered Serena, and that is really rare to see. 

Again, Ramos put his thumb on the scale, which no official should do, and he didn’t need to. As I’ve said several times now, I still Osaka would have won, but he made that easier.

[mankytoes]

1 minute ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

 

Again, Ramos put his thumb on the scale, which no official should do, and he didn’t need to. 

You've got that analogy backwards. He kept his thumb off the scale, you're saying he should have put his thumb on, because of who Serena is and what the occasion was. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

You've got that analogy backwards. He kept his thumb off the scale, you're saying he should have put his thumb on, because of who Serena is and what the occasion was. 

No. You could make that argument if Ramos’ behavior was similar to other officials, but basically all of the tennis experts I’ve heard from have said it isn’t regardless of how they felt about what he did.

And yes, the player and the occasion do matter. It’s pretty universal across sports.

[Mladen]

5 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Also, why do you keep saying the official can’t defend himself?

Because, unlike the rest of us, he is forbidden to speak. Per ITF rules, umpires can't publicly comment on the matches or make statements. Serena, as anyone else following the sport is aware of this. His name can be slandered here, or anywhere else, without him being able to say a word. Serena has a platform that he doesn't have.

7 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Is Nadal not the one who said Ramos will never officiate a match of his again?

A quick Google search has all kinds of things. My biggest takeaway is that players don’t like this guy very much, lol.  

Nadal's Carlos was Bernandez not Ramos, although Ramos did sanctioned him too.

Why do you say that? Because he has a record, unlike many umpires, with the most powerful names? Yes, that is why everyone in sport respects him. He is not the one to be frightened by the name. And that means something. Especially for those players who do't have the same pedigree. 

11 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Again, timing matters, as I laid out in a different post. If it was 2-2 in the first set, it wouldn’t be as big of a deal.   

You do understand that he didn't give her three violations in the matter of seconds. First, he gave her one violation, than she continued and lost a game, after she smashed the racket, a situation in which the rules are even more clear. Then he informed her about a point penalty, she has a meltdown calling him "thief", which again is a situation Ramos has to act. Serena had the chance to cool down, Serena was asked to understand and not continue with the tantrum. Serena ignored and chose otherwise. Well, what she chose is against the rule.

15 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

He made it 5-3 with Serena down a set. That’s putting a thumb on the scale and you know it.

And for what it’s worth, I do think Osaka would have won anyways. Her path was made a lot easier though.   

Serena already lost 2 games on her serve by that point. The game she lost was on Osaka's serve

And honestly, do you think this is the first time Serena does something like this? To create a situation when things don't go as she wants? Just google that too...

17 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

She could be wrong, but outright dismissing it is not the play to make if you’re a self-described feminist.

There is so much sexism all over the world. There are so many women whose careers and financial status have been damaged due to this. Unfortunately, Serena Williams is one of those women. I understand that. But she made a mistake. OK, it happens. No one is perfect. But, then she equalized her situation with situation of many women, while simultaneously sounding like a rich bully:

"You owe me an apology. You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it, say you’re sorry.”

These are not the words of a woman facing the sexism. These are the words of someone who has considerable amount of money and influence and was dead on to get her way. If we disregard her skin color and gender and just read those words, we can actually see that these are not the words of a victim, but of a bully.

To quote Meryl Streep...

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And this instinct to humiliate, when it's modeled by someone in the public platform, by someone powerful, it filters down into everybody's life, because it kind of gives permission for other people to do the same thing. Disrespect invites disrespect. Violence incites violence. When the powerful use their position to bully others, we all lose.

I am sorry, but from my point of view, Serena was not the victim of sexism that night. She was a bully who used all disposable tools to fight for what she felt is hers.