Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!

[lessthanluke]

1 minute ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The coach said he does it in basically every match and he’s never been hit for it. That makes it one massive statistical outlier, especially given the moment.

Of course the coach said that.

[Mladen]

It seems that this has now come down to culture and background.

Simply, Americans don't follow tennis. It's simple as that. Djokovic spoke about how loud NYC audience is, which is rather unique for tennis audience. Most Americans would not be able to speak about tennis players which is why the name of McEnroe, who retired in 1992, gets mentioned in this debate. Yes, the argument is valid about Serena because they mention McEnroe who played 30 years ago. Give_me_a_break.

And that is the thing. Serena said a thing and now we have entire USA repeating it like parrots. No one, like absolutely no one questions her words, no one from the public forum is questioning Serena's rather personal attack on the umpire. And even when they do, the thing in American media, it just gets casually mentioned as it somehow doesn't pertain to the debate.

There is no proof that Ramos was sexist that night. There are some very public confrontations he had with Murray, Djokovic, Nadal, all of whom had enough maturity to keep their mouth shut once they got a warning. They never got the chance to let some steam off and then attack him some more, which is what happened on Saturday night. So, Serena, who is not some unknown face of the game after all, she plays the sexism card, while simultaneously not being able to produce (just like many of those who support her claims) any sort of proof that this level of disrespect and abuse went without sanction in men's tennis.

And, as someone said, the biggest issue was that it somehow is allowed for popular players to be force umpires to do as they wanted. Serena wanted to bully Ramos into doing that, but unfortunately for her, he didn't buckle. He was not emotional as the videos show him to be quite calm and composed, he tried to calm her down, he said to her "I understand" when they spoke about coaching. So, she had some time to let the steam off. But then her behavior went truly form terrible to worse and of course, Ramos' hands were tied and he had to react the way he did. 

So, this entire media storm Serena caused is simply due to very limited knowledge of tennis by some American fans paired with WTA's and USTA's benefits that can be attained siding with richer and more popular in this story. Which is why tennis umpires are truly concerned what will happen next? And honestly, I would call for boycott of Serena's matches until WTA sorts this out and makes Serena apologize for rather dishonest comments she made about Carlos Ramos. 

[3CityApache]

28 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Why is it so hard for most of you to just admit that it was the official, enforcing an arbitrary rule that most others would let slide, and not Serena, that began to send the match off of the rails?

Because it's simply not true. An official enforced an arbitrary rule, and probably many others would indeed let it slide. But just not him! He's well known for his attitude to rules, he's been enforcing them many times in many similar situations, involving both men and women. Serena was perfectly aware of it. All this had completely nothing to do with sexism or racism and they both knew it very well. It was just so very unfair for Serena to play that card in that situation.

And I have no idea where you got your assumption she's hated around here from. I have always admired her, for that matter, even if she's not my favourite tennis player.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Of course the coach said that.

Yeah, but the fact that he unequivocally admitted to coaching indicates he’s probably being honest in general. By the strict letter of the law, were there three code violations? Yes. But part of the job of officiating is knowing how and when to enforce them, and Ramos failed at that, and then rather than defusing the situation, he kept making it worse. Just accept, for the love of god, that he was not blameless in this affair.

[lessthanluke]

2 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Yeah, but the fact that he unequivocally admitted to coaching indicates he’s probably being honest in general. By the strict letter of the law, were there three code violations? Yes. But part of the job of officiating is knowing how and when to enforce them, and Ramos failed at that, and then rather than defusing the situation, he kept making it worse. Just accept, for the love of god, that he was not blameless in this affair.

How the hell did he keep making it worse?! 

I'm starting to wonder if we watched the same thing.

He had ZERO choice with the violations for the racquet smash and the abuse,

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Yeah, but the fact that he unequivocally admitted to coaching indicates he’s probably being honest in general. By the strict letter of the law, were there three code violations? Yes. But part of the job of officiating is knowing how and when to enforce them, and Ramos failed at that, and then rather than defusing the situation, he kept making it worse. Just accept, for the love of god, that he was not blameless in this affair.

You mean, sometimes he should enforce rules and sometimes he shouldn't? Because that is the entire argument here. Serena should have been allowed these transgressions because she is Serena and it was GS finals? Well, that is the biggest problem tennis fans have with umpires. Giving "big names" more freedom... Serena was umpired by the book. It was her behavior that needed modulation. 

[David Selig]

41 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Holy hell, some of these comments are ignorant. I will do my best to respond to each that is valid throughout the day, and yes I have freely admitted I’m a casual fan so it’s harder for me to just pull out specific examples, but I have seen a ton of clips of tennis highlights over the years in which men freak out, both at the ref and in general which have cost them less, which has been the entire point.

It is a gradual system. First violation is only an official warning. To lose a game you need to be sanctioned for violations 3 times in one match, which is extremely rare for obvious reasons. That's why all these "Look at Player X going at the ref and being punished less than Serena" are useless and dishonest.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Risto said:

There is no proof that Ramos was sexist that night.

I don't think you understand exactly how sexism and racism work man. Every sexist isn't telling women to make them a sandwich and every racist isn't wearing a white hood. It's all on a spectrum, and a great deal of it is unconscious, 

In a previous post you talked about how there are female and minority officials. Are you unaware of the wealth of data that also shows that woman can be sexist to other women and minorities can hold prejudice views about their own ethnic group?

I doubt that Ramos is what we traditionally call racist or sexist, but that doesn’t mean unconscious biases can’t play a role in a split second decision. There’s an old saying here, it sucks to be a minority and it sucks to be a woman, but it really sucks to be a black woman in America. Serena is seeing the world from that view. That’s why I have repeatedly asked you and others to do the same. Her response might make sense to you if you really honestly tried.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, 3CityApache said:

Because it's simply not true. An official enforced an arbitrary rule, and probably many others would indeed let it slide. But just not him! He's well known for his attitude to rules, he's been enforcing them many times in many similar situations, involving both men and women. Serena was perfectly aware of it. All this had completely nothing to do with sexism or racism and they both knew it very well. It was just so very unfair for Serena to play that card in that situation.

And I have no idea where you got your assumption she's hated around here from. I have always admired her, for that matter, even if she's not my favourite tennis player.

I say that because nearly every time I see her mentioned here it’s with a negative connotation.  

And no you cannot say a role, because they always can. I was on my way to getting a PhD in psychology before I fell in love with politics, and I can’t tell you the number of studies I’ve read and written about the subject. So again, for the thousandth time, sexism and racism doesn’t not have to be obvious to have an impact, and it’s important to consider how a black woman might interrupt the situation.

As far as the officiating goes, yeah, you let things slide given the moment. You can give a red card for an iffy call in the 10^th minute of a meaningless match. You cannot do the same thing in the World Cup Final and expect not to get torn apart for it. That’s why, for example, in basketball you can get your first technical foul for something minor while it takes a lot to get the second and get tossed, even though by the letter of the law all infractions need be treated the same. A ref/ump/official’s job is not to just enforce the rules, but to also weigh them in the moment.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, David Selig said:

It is a gradual system. First violation is only an official warning. To lose a game you need to be sanctioned for violations 3 times in one match, which is extremely rare for obvious reasons. That's why all these "Look at Player X going at the ref and being punished less than Serena" are useless and dishonest.

 

Dude I get that. The key, again, is that the ref has discretion. 

[baxus]

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Broadly speaking, several of you have cited that the official was enforcing the rule. Can you not also admit that the rule is arbitrary? A cop can sit at a stop sign and watch four people roll through it and decide not to enforce the law against them, but decides to do it to the fifth person who does so, and that the fifth person could be a black woman who sees the four cars ahead of her get a pass while she gets stopped and feel that it’s sexist and/or racist? Because that’s what basically happened here.

No, the rule is not arbitrary. It's a god damn rule! It's written in a book, every player and umpire and linesman and 90+% of fans is aware of that rule. It's not something that just came out of the blue and caught everyone by surprise.

Even if we go along with your ridiculous analogy, you better believe that a cop would definitely stop every single person roll past the stop sign if the crossroad in question was covered by cameras from dozens of different angles and the feed broadcast to tens of millions of people and drivers in question got paid millions of dollars to stop at the damn stop sign.

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Serena’s coach admitted that he was coaching. He also said he’s done it in most matches, and every commentator I’ve seen has said basically every coach does the same thing. Her coach also said this is the first time he’s ever been hit with a code violation for doing so. That means the official, Ramos, was the outlier. So no, this was not a simple enforcement of the rules, it was highly subjective, and it’s what sent the match off of the rails.

The fact that he's doing it in every match is irrelevant. How many times was he caught coaching and gotten off the hook?

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I, as a Serena fan, have said several times now that she should not have blown up, and that I’m fine with it costing her a point. But a game? Making it 5-3? In the second set? Down a break? And a set? IN THE FINALS? Get out of here. It’s absurd. If it had happened to Fed, Nadal or Joker, I suspect many of you would be saying something very different, but because, from my experience posting in this thread for three to four years, you all hate her, it’s just a fair application of the rules………

First of all, the rules are the rules. There's no reason why one set of rules applies only at certain results in the finals and another set of rules applies to other matches. Also, the same set of rules applies to Serena as for other players.

What our reactions would be to Fed, Nadal or Djokovic behaving in such fashion is an unknown because NONE OF THEM has ever behaved like she did in this final.

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Why is it so hard for most of you to just admit that it was the official, enforcing an arbitrary rule that most others would let slide, and not Serena, that began to send the match off of the rails?

I can't speak for the rest, but it is hard for me to admit something that's not true. Serena behaved like a whiney brat, refused to stop throwing tantrums and it cost her. Had she behaved as one of the most successful athletes in sport's history we wouldn't be having this conversation.

36 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The point is he shouldn’t have dinged her for the coaching code violation, and that because he did, he could have given her a warning rather taking a game and effectively ending the match. Sure Serena could have come back in theory, but she wasn’t at her best and she was sobbing on the sidelines. How do you expect her to be composed considering every thing that was going on?

As already stated, she was given a warning for coaching. She lost the game for successive infractions.

21 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The coach said he does it in basically every match and he’s never been hit for it. That makes it one massive statistical outlier, especially given the moment.

Once again, the fact he got away with it doesn't mean that this umpire is out to get her. It means that those other umpires need to pay more attention to communication between players and coaches.

[lessthanluke]

54 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Holy hell, some of these comments are ignorant. I will do my best to respond to each that is valid throughout the day, and yes I have freely admitted I’m a casual fan so it’s harder for me to just pull out specific examples, but I have seen a ton of clips of tennis highlights over the years in which men freak out, both at the ref and in general which have cost them less, which has been the entire point.

 

 

It seems like you don't really know how the rules work. Of course it cost them less as it wasn't a 3rd violation.

Serena Williams is literally my favourite tennis player of all time also. So I am not viewing it from an I hate Serena lens which you seem to think a lot are doing.

[Mladen]

5 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I doubt that Ramos is what we traditionally call racist or sexist, but that doesn’t mean unconscious biases can’t play a role in a split second decision. There’s an old saying here, it sucks to be a minority and it sucks to be a woman, but it really sucks to be a black woman in America. Serena is seeing the world from that view. That’s why I have repeatedly asked you and others to do the same. Her response might make sense to you if you really honestly tried.

And we have continuously asked YOU to provide us with evidence that Ramos reacted different to a Caucasian, male or female or to a man. And yet, since you started this debate, you evaded to do it EVERY SINGLE TIME. So, while there are nuances to sexism and racism, while it does suck to be an African American woman, what you and those claiming sexism failed to do is to provide some evidence that Ramos would react differently to a male player, or a Caucasian. 

I understand that she has been pushed around for so long. I understand that she had to work for everything she has and that she has faced sexism in the sport. I also understand the emotional baggage of her 2009 and 2004 conflicts at US Open. 

But, she continued proclaiming herself as "champion of women" and saying "I had a voice so tomorrow someone else would have it too". She portrayed this entire situation as sexist claiming that the reaction would be had there be a male player. Unfortunately for her, that simply, objectively and historically speaking, is not true. So, no, there was no unconscious  bias and it is distasteful to claim it.

[David Selig]

39 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

The coach said he does it in basically every match and he’s never been hit for it. That makes it one massive statistical outlier, especially given the moment. 

And Serena said she never receives any coaching. Is she a liar?

 

13 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

There’s an old saying here, it sucks to be a minority and it sucks to be a woman, but it really sucks to be a black woman in America. Serena is seeing the world from that view.

She was playing against another black woman. In New York with 20,000 crowd cheering her on. She is also by far the biggest star of women's tennis currently. How exactly was she supposed to be the one at a disadvantage in this match? Because the umpire was male? Why would his apparent sexism and racism lead to him "arbitrary" deciding to help one black woman in her match against another?

[baxus]

3 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

As far as the officiating goes, yeah, you let things slide given the moment. You can give a red card for an iffy call in the 10^th minute of a meaningless match. You cannot do the same thing in the World Cup Final and expect not to get torn apart for it. That’s why, for example, in basketball you can get your first technical foul for something minor while it takes a lot to get the second and get tossed, even though by the letter of the law all infractions need be treated the same. A ref/ump/official’s job is not to just enforce the rules, but to also weigh them in the moment.

You pretty much picked the worst possible example for this.

Over only the last 10-15 years, I remember Zidane head-butting Matterazzi in the chest in 2006, getting sent off for it and the incident basically deciding the winner and De Jong doing the kick to the chest in 2010 and not getting the red card for it. Not a single person piled on the ref for sending off Zidane, but everyone gave the ref a hard time for not sending DeJong off.

And hell no - ref shouldn't weigh the rules in the moment. Rules should apply to everyone all the time. Also, giving one team or an athlete a pass for an infraction is directly damaging their opponents.

2 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Dude I get that. The key, again, is that the ref has discretion. 

And ref did nothing wrong choosing to sanction her behavior.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

43 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

How the hell did he keep making it worse?! 

I'm starting to wonder if we watched the same thing.

He had ZERO choice with the violations for the racquet smash and the abuse,

I have no objections to the code violation on the smash. But that should have been the first violation. And yes he had some discretion with the abuse. But it never need to be there because the code violation for coaching is what set her off. Absent that, do we know whether or not she’d smash her racquet? No, but it’s fair to assume she wouldn’t have blown her stack and abused the official, and that’s the whole point.

And as far as watching the match goes, again, see it through her eyes, not your own. That’s all I’ve been arguing. You may not see sexism, but that’s what she felt, and she should be listened to.

42 minutes ago, Risto said:

You mean, sometimes he should enforce rules and sometimes he shouldn't? Because that is the entire argument here. Serena should have been allowed these transgressions because she is Serena and it was GS finals? Well, that is the biggest problem tennis fans have with umpires. Giving "big names" more freedom... Serena was umpired by the book. It was her behavior that needed modulation. 

Dude, that’s not tennis, that’s sports. Stars get star treatment, especially in big moments.

Hell, arguably the most iconic basketball play of all time is Michael Jordan committing an offensive foul to hit a jump shot that won a championship at the buzzer.

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

And as far as watching the match goes, again, see it through her eyes, not your own. That’s all I’ve been arguing. You may not see sexism, but that’s what she felt, and she should be listened to.

You keep repeating this, but I feel that this is ridiculous. You seem to be arguing that if it was not Serena, the officiating would be very appropriate given the exact same actions.

Its one thing to absolve Serena of blame, its quite another to push the blame to the umpire.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, baxus said:

You pretty much picked the worst possible example for this.

Over only the last 10-15 years, I remember Zidane head-butting Matterazzi in the chest in 2006, getting sent off for it and the incident basically deciding the winner and De Jong doing the kick to the chest in 2010 and not getting the red card for it. Not a single person piled on the ref for sending off Zidane, but everyone gave the ref a hard time for not sending DeJong off.

And hell no - ref shouldn't weigh the rules in the moment. Rules should apply to everyone all the time. Also, giving one team or an athlete a pass for an infraction is directly damaging their opponents.

And ref did nothing wrong choosing to sanction her behavior.

Lol, I actually picked it because of Zidane. Everyone in the world outside of France would have given him a red card for what he did. That’s the point. The ref had no choice. That was a straight red, regardless of when and where it happened. The coaching code violation is not the same thing, and again, you have to weight that that was the moment that really set her off. It’s unlikely that she blows up if that didn’t happen.

Also, I’m kind of confused about your other comment regarding cops. They literally pick and choose when and how they want to enforce the law regardless of who is watching them.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

47 minutes ago, Risto said:

And we have continuously asked YOU to provide us with evidence that Ramos reacted different to a Caucasian, male or female or to a man. And yet, since you started this debate, you evaded to do it EVERY SINGLE TIME. So, while there are nuances to sexism and racism, while it does suck to be an African American woman, what you and those claiming sexism failed to do is to provide some evidence that Ramos would react differently to a male player, or a Caucasian. 

I understand that she has been pushed around for so long. I understand that she had to work for everything she has and that she has faced sexism in the sport. I also understand the emotional baggage of her 2009 and 2004 conflicts at US Open. 

But, she continued proclaiming herself as "champion of women" and saying "I had a voice so tomorrow someone else would have it too". She portrayed this entire situation as sexist claiming that the reaction would be had there be a male player. Unfortunately for her, that simply, objectively and historically speaking, is not true. So, no, there was no unconscious  bias and it is distasteful to claim it.

Dude, do you understand how hard it is to prove that an individual has unconscious biases, and furthermore, how hard they are to identify? I’ve merely argued that they exist, they could have impacted the situation and that most importantly, Serena felt she was a victim of sexism. That was initially in response to people arguing that she was claiming it was sexism for a variety of reasons, none of which had to do with her legitimately feeling she was a victim. Do you not get that? It’s quite possible that she wasn’t, as I’ve said numerous times, but her feelings matter a lot more than spectators’ opinions on the subject. Why is this so hard? How many times have I said Serena was wrong? Why can’t you understand that she wasn’t the only one in the wrong, and how her life experience is going to color how she saw what was happening?

[john]

3 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I disagree.

If he didn't punish Williams for her tirade he would definitely have been criticised. 

Fair enough, he would’ve been wrongly criticised then.  Plenty of people in tennis are saying exactly what i’m saying, which is that he should have had a mind on the game and not just on the rule book.  Like I said, I don’t blame him at all and he was absolutely justified BUT it ruined the game.  He made a decision that ruined the game.

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Well, who you have more respect for is hardly relevant in the big picture, is it? I mean, I have more respect for refs/umpires who don't let star athletes get away with things like this and it's just as poor an argument for proving a point.

Who’s proving a point? I’m giving an opinion. And a preference for officials who are not total sticklers for the rules and let a game flow is not exactly an unusual opinion.