Tennis Volume 7: Roger That!

[ljkeane]

17 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

We've all see male tennis players behave worse than that and get a pass

Have we? Perhaps you could provide some actual examples because I can’t recall seeing any players do anything as bad as calling the umpire a liar and a thief.

That’s about as bad as I’ve seen any player in any sport talking to an official. In most sports that’d get you sent off.

[BigFatCoward]

23 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

 

At the end of the day, when you're a ref, you should try avoiding being the story at all costs, and he failed to do that, and it did a disservice to both players. 

She made him the story, by not letting it go when it was clear she was losing the plot, and by basically being a twat. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Have we? Perhaps you could provide some actual examples because I can’t recall seeing any players do anything as bad as calling the umpire a liar and a thief.

That’s about as bad as I’ve seen any player in any sport talking to an official. In most sports that’d get you sent off.

I've seen dudes blow up at officials and not get hit with a violation. And again, you have to consider the circumstances as a whole. If there weren't any previous violations, I wouldn't care. But considering he hit her with a pretty iffy one earlier, it's a bad look IMO. It basically killed what could of been an exciting match that was just starting to heat up.

ETA: cough, basketball, cough...

10 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

She made him the story, by not letting it go when it was clear she was losing the plot, and by basically being a twat. 

Again, put yourself in her shoes. She's getting outplayed, then the ref accuses her of cheating. She wants an apology and he says no and dismisses her. He escalated the situation when he should have tried to defuse it, and it cascaded from there. Look, I'm not saying Serena was some holy innocent victim here. She wasn't. But the ref didn't do the right thing either. And then you have to factor in her history, both recent and over the years. She has felt for a long time that she gets mistreated by refs, I think she has some case here, and tennis just did something to her that was completely sexist, and frankly, a little racist. I can understand why she blew up while also recognizing that she could of handle herself in a different fashion at some points in the match.

Mainly I'm just mad we got cheated out of a possible come back and an epic third set. Nothing that happened during the woman's championship was good for tennis outside of the fact that there looks to be a new budding young star. 

[john]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

1. There is such thing as sign language. A lot can be said with gestures.

2. She claimed there is no coaching. Her coach said there was. She claimed they don't have code, which coach's admission simply negated.

3. No one sane would admit to breaking the rules.

It’s a pretty broad power for the ref to be expected interpret a whole new language in the moment.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

they can be particularly negative towards African Americans and women.

And Osaka is a white male? I really don't see how this pertains to this discussion.

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

She wanted to beat Serena because she was better than her, not because of what went down.

She has beaten Serena because she was better than her. Anyone who has watched that match can't deny it. Osaka won fair and square. And Serena destroyed a night that should have been the most beautiful for Osaka. It is Kanye West situation all over again.

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

We've all see male tennis players behave worse than that and get a pass, and not in a moment as important as deep into the second set of the CHAMPIONSHIP. 

Examples, please... In the last 10 years who said anything like that to the umpire and went without warning?

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Let me re-clarify, they wouldn't be hit with those calls in that situation, or at least I think it's far less likely. The ref basically gift wrapped a championship to Osaka, and I don't think he would have done that to one of the elite male players. If you have examples of times he did, I'm all ears.

1. Ramos gave Murray a warning when Murray said it was "stupid umpiring"

2. Ramos gave Nadal a warning when he caught him getting signals from his box.

3. Ramos gave Djokovic a warning when he smashed a racket

So, no, you can't argue that he would not have punished male tennis players, when he has done so. Serena wasn't the first one.

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I'm fine with a violation for harassment, but in that situation you should be inclined to let it slide and administer a warning letting her know that this ends now or else. You could argue the same with her smashing her racket. The coaching violation was lame. You do that in the early rounds to send a message, and you do it when said coaching is far more blatant.  

His hands are tied here. The moment a player smashes a racket, he gets violation. The moment verbal abuse starts, player gets violation. This is not up to umpire to decide, these are rather strict rules and all the umpires respect them. Serena went from "frying pan into a fire", yes, but she broke the rules and she paid like any other player would. Male or female.

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

At the end of the day, when you're a ref, you should try avoiding being the story at all costs, and he failed to do that, and it did a disservice to both players. 

And who made him a story? He? No, it was Serena. Serena who knew he cant say a word. Serena who very well understands that Ramos cant utter a word in defense of his actions. Media playground is hers and like a bully, she used it.

46 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

I've seen dudes blow up at officials and not get hit with a violation

Now, don't give us 10 examples, give us one. When someone said something to the umpire of this level and went without punishment. I am sorry, but if you are going to continue debating this, you will have to at least give some examples.

A man's career and his life work has been tainted by a bully. Because Serena was a popular, mean girl, bully who couldn't have controlled herself. And then in moment of absurdness, she starts rambling about sexism. 

And now, it's also racism... Give me a break.

49 minutes ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Again, put yourself in her shoes. She's getting outplayed, then the ref accuses her of cheating. She wants an apology and he says no and dismisses her. He escalated the situation when he should have tried to defuse it, and it cascaded from there. Look, I'm not saying Serena was some holy innocent victim here. She wasn't. But the ref didn't do the right thing either. And then you have to factor in her history, both recent and over the years. She has felt for a long time that she gets mistreated by refs, I think she has some case here, and tennis just did something to her that was completely sexist, and frankly, a little racist. I can understand why she blew up while also recognizing that she could of handle herself in a different fashion at some points in the match.

So, you think Ramos should have apologized for her lying to him. Because she DID say she doesn't have a code with her coach and HER COACH said he was coaching.

What apology are we waiting here?

[Mladen]

Just now, john said:

It’s a pretty broad power for the ref to be expected interpret a whole new language in the moment.

Serena said she and her coach don't have a "code".

Her coach said that he was coaching.

So, the argument here is what? No, seriously, what is the argument here? That Ramos should have not punished her for something we all know happened? I am truly interested in understanding how this was supposed to go.

Serena was getting coaching --- Ramos issues a first warning

Serena smashes a racket --- Ramos gives her a point penalty.

Serena calls him a "thief" --- Ramos gives her a game penalty

The way I see it is that Serena broke the rules and Serena paid for it. What was Ramos supposed to do? Nothing? To allow much richer and more famous player to get her way because she can scream? Serena was a bully on the court and she got what she deserved.

[john]

Well, Ramos could have ignored the coaching violation and been lenient on the verbal abuse violation.  Then Williams would’ve got one warning for racquet abuse and that would’ve been all.

Not saying he should have done that, he can do whatever he wants.  But it would’ve been a better game of tennis and he wouldn’t have been booed so much he had to run away.

[Mladen]

Just now, john said:

Well, Ramos could have ignored the coaching violation and been lenient on the verbal abuse violation.  Then Williams would’ve got one warning for racquet abuse and that would’ve been all.

That is true. He could have also told Osaka not to go out on court and proclaim Serena a winner. This cuts both ways. Everyone who ever played a match Ramos umpired know how rigidly he interprets the rules. Serena was no exception that night. 

Not to mention that she lied to him. She was basically caught on camera lying, telling him that she was never coached, that there is no "code", but apparently there was a code, and her coach was indeed coaching her. So, not only that she violated the coaching rule (which is something that can be changed in the future), she lied to him about it.

8 minutes ago, john said:

Not saying he should have done that, he can do whatever he wants.  But it would’ve been a better game of tennis and he wouldn’t have been booed so much he had to run away.

I really hate bullied and Serena and New York crowd was one giant bully. These umpires, they are supposed to umpire the players who are richer than they are, more prominent than they are. Between Serena and Ramos, he was the one downtrodden. He was facing someone who believed the title was hers and she was ready to get it, by any means necessary. Ramos, unfortunately for her, is not the one to be afraid of the big names. 

It would have been much better game of tennis had Serena not acted the way she did. His hands were tied by the guidebook. And honestly, instead of praising this man's courage to clash with any player, regardless of money and stardom, we are supposed to defend a bully? 

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Agreed, or at least to Osaka. You guys keep saying Serena ruined her moment. Well so did the ref. She wanted to beat Serena because she was better than her, not because of what went down.

He was also overeager in enforcing them. The coaching violation was particularly lame.  

Dude that could have gotten so much worse if Serena hadn't told them to knock it off, and we don't know what was said in private. I think it was eminently clear that she bore no ill will to Osaka.

We've all see male tennis players behave worse than that and get a pass, and not in a moment as important as deep into the second set of the CHAMPIONSHIP. 

So we're still using BS terms like "model minority" in 2018? Wonderful.....

And circling back to the beginning, you and others have used some terminology that would imply some unconscious biases. We all have them, and would do best to try and make them conscious for ourselves so we can be rid of them. 

At the end of the day, when you're a ref, you should try avoiding being the story at all costs, and he failed to do that, and it did a disservice to both players. 

Coaching was just a warning. All she had to do was act like a grown up afterwards. He took a lot of abuse before taking the game from her, you could definitely argue she should have been penalised before that moment. Note that she gave him shit, played some tennis, gave him more shit, played again, gave him MORE shit... it's shocking how many people think that level of dissent is acceptable, in any sport. 

Serena is not an idiot, she knew exactly what she was doing in riling up the crowd. It's a testament to Osaka's mental strength that her game didn't seem affected.

A strong official always makes the same calls, no matter what the level. You should never let the occasion or the personalities change your judgement. 

Seriously? I was using the phrase "model minority" in quotations, look at context. I'm saying other people want to stick black women in a simple category for their own purposes, instead of viewing them as complex individuals, which is how white men get treated. 

Well think about this then. If a white male player had said to a black female umpire "You are never going to be on my court again", what would your reaction be? Unconscious biases can go both ways. As you say, we can all have biases, but the facts are pretty strong here. 

That's the worst argument yet. The job of an official is to implement the rules fairly and consistently. If that makes them "the story", then that's just how it goes. We get this all the time in football (soccer). There's this ridiculous idea that you can't send a player off early in the game, or you're attention seeking or "ruining the game". Even when pundits agree it's a red card offence, the narrative is often that the referee is on some mad ego trip rather than, y'know, doing his job. 

 

Anyway, I really hope we see a lot more of Osaka, I've been following her for a while and she really looks like a top player. It's really frustrating how female players have tended to come and go at the top of the game in recent years, without building sustained rivalries. Serena is one of the oldest players on the tour- in the top 100, only Venus is higher. Maybe, with time, this match will be seen more as a "passing of the torch" moment. 

[Jeor]

For those defending Serena, firstly in tennis the official is called an umpire, not a referee. The match referee is the tournament official in charge of the smooth running of the tournament as a whole, while the umpire is the person in charge of the match itself.

I think we can all agree that the confrontations ruined the game and ruined things for Osaka. I guess the main point of difference is that some think it's the umpire's fault that this happened, while others (myself included) think it's Serena's fault. The Navratilova article I think is pretty balanced. It doesn't go quite far enough for mine but that's fine.

On other on-court business, I was hoping Delpo would be able to put on a good show but unfortunately Djokovic is the exact type of player he can't muscle out of the game. Against anyone else Delpo's firepower would have been overwhelming but he comes up against the best defender in tennis, those stats on how Djokovic returned 37/40 serves in play (or something like that) in the first set were amazing.

[Which Tyler]

14 hours ago, David Selig said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html - finally an article in a major US media which criticises Serena's actions and offers a rational take on the whole incident, written by the great Martina Navratilova. 

I found another, though not from the US; a good, balanced article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45477131

9 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Have we? Perhaps you could provide some actual examples because I can’t recall seeing any players do anything as bad as calling the umpire a liar and a thief.

That’s about as bad as I’ve seen any player in any sport talking to an official. In most sports that’d get you sent off.

Not just sent off - I suspect we're both thinking of a very similar scenario in our chosen sport, where the England Captain calls the ref a cheat and gets not just a red card, but an 11 week ban, covering the 2nd most prestigious event in his sport: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/22674429

 

Sports have rules (or sometimes "laws") the ref or the umpire is there to enforce them. I don't recall any previous occassions where players have been given violations for coaching - but it does seem to happen all the time, it's just a minor thing that I never think about - an accepted risk - like a squint feed in rugby or stealing extra metres at a line throw in football. Certainly nothing sexist or racist if the umpire happens to both catch you and chose to admonish you - keep your calm, and don't escalate. Players get pinged for racquet abuse all the bloody time - second offence is an escalation. Players talk to the umpire, and remonstrate with them all the time; and get code violations for bad language all the time - I've never heard any player call the umpire a cheat of a thief though; and the only (top level) sporting example I CAN think of for that is linked above - sent off and banned for 11 weeks. IMO she was lucky to only be docked a game for that behaviour (not the previous, but abuse of the officials is absolutely unacceptable).

For those 2-3 posters claiming you HAVE seen such abuse of an umpire without sanction - please, put up or shut up - you know where google is, it shouldn't be too hard if it happens "all the time" - we're not talking about disagreements, we're not even talking about swearing; we're talking about prima dona accusations of cheating, and theft.

For those saying the umpire should have apologised - why? he was dead right on each and every one of those 3 calls - why shouldhe apologise for doing his job? Are the cops supposed to apologise for catching you speeding? no - that's just bullshit victim menality and narcisism.

[lessthanluke]

10 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Have we? Perhaps you could provide some actual examples because I can’t recall seeing any players do anything as bad as calling the umpire a liar and a thief.

That’s about as bad as I’ve seen any player in any sport talking to an official. In most sports that’d get you sent off.

I think we shall be waiting a long time for this example.

[Calibandar]

Yup. I think this is just a case of an American defending his countrywoman against the evil "rest of the world".

Which seems to be sort of in tune with how the media is portraying it. Rest of the world- Serena's behavior is ridiculous, zero merit to her argument. American media ( and stadium crowd) - what an outrage, black woman was disadvantaged. 

Most people seem to agree she has only herself to thank for this. It happens. I think the thing that has stood out the most to me is how divisive the reactions have been in the media. I would have thought this sort of behaviour from the player would have been heavily frowned upon, but it turns out that who that player is actually has a great deal to do with the verdict on the matter is, for some.

I think we can safely say that if for instance Djokovic or Murray had let himself go like this, they would have been scolded and scoffed at and there would be no "two sides" to it. It would have been scandalous the way they treated the poor umpire.

[Mladen]

Whoever says that this is going to become a reference point for sexism in tennis was completely right. And the saddest thing is that women in tennis, and many sports alike, do face sexism, but if this becomes a reference point, then the problem will truly never be resolved.

What is even worse is who sided with Serena. American tennis association and WTA choose her side, not because it is rught thing to do, because it is not, but because Serena is a powerhouse who brings money. Attacking umpires on this level for the sake of money and popularity, that just speaks how awful is today's sports. 

And they are all doing this, knowing that Ramos can't say a word to the press. So, not only that is uneven playground, but they are using it to slander his name without even thinking it through.

So, no, this wasn't sexism... This is bullying. And no, not any male powerhouse such as Serena did what she did. Not Djokovic or Murray, not Nadal and certainly not Federer. So, it is not a story of men v women (as someone said, there was 2,5 times more violations for men than for women on this year's US OPEN), it is a story of one bully not getting what she wants.

[David Selig]

Serena being American certainly explains some of the defending from the US media, but her being a black woman is a much bigger reason IMO.  Mainstream US media loves to stoke the outrage of the progressives, be "on the right side of history", and get some sweet clicks in the process. If it was a male US tennis player acting this way on the court he wouldn't have been defended much and if he had said that female players get away with this stuff all the time and he's just fighting for men's rights and equality he would have been crucified by the US media.

10 hours ago, SpaceForce Tywin et al. said:

Again, put yourself in her shoes. She's getting outplayed, then the ref accuses her of cheating. She wants an apology and he says no and dismisses her. He escalated the situation when he should have tried to defuse it, and it cascaded from there.

This is some really bizarre logic. The umpire correctly enforced the rules. Even Serena's coach himself admitted he was coaching from the stands and signalling to Serena. Why the hell would the umpire apologise for correctly enforcing the rules of the game?

[john]

We don’t know whether the rule was correctly enforced.  Mouratoglou says he coached, Williams says she never got any coaching.  It’s an interpretation Ramos is entitled to make but it’s purely subjective.  That’s why it’s a silly rule, you don’t need it.

[David Selig]

Any communication attempt between the coach and player is forbidden, whether the player sees it doesn't matter. And let's not kid ourselves, if they hadn't established a system for such signals, the coach wouldn't be doing it.

BTW, data cited by the NY Times shows that "Overall at the event (US Open 2018), 86 code violations of all sorts were given to men, compared with 22 for women". The patriarchal conspiracy is working very poorly, it seems, male players get called for way more violations even taking into account their matches are longer.

[Mladen]

23 minutes ago, john said:

We don’t know whether the rule was correctly enforced.  Mouratoglou says he coached, Williams says she never got any coaching.  It’s an interpretation Ramos is entitled to make but it’s purely subjective.  That’s why it’s a silly rule, you don’t need it.

Oh, no, it is not subjective. Serena claimed that the code doesn't exist and that she has never been coached. Given the fact thather coach was caught red-handed, the logic dictates that she lied.

It may be a silly rule, but it is a rule for reason. Outside factors should not influence a tennis match. That is why they silence the audience, why they are alone on the playfield. The match is between two individuals, not their coaches and whoever sits in their boxes.

 

 

[David Selig]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/art...rst-at-us-open-final-fwgv97swz  - tennis umpires are seriously considering boycotting Serena's matches from now on unless she apologises and WTA shows more support for them. I hope they organise and go through with this. 

[john]

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Any communication attempt between the coach and player is forbidden, whether the player sees it doesn't matter. And let's not kid ourselves, if they hadn't established a system for such signals, the coach wouldn't be doing it.

Untrue. The word attempt is not used in the rulebook.  There might well have been coaching going on, all I’m saying is that Ramos can’t fairly adjudicate on that.

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Oh, no, it is not subjective. Serena claimed that the code doesn't exist and that she has never been coached. Given the fact thather coach was caught red-handed, the logic dictates that she lied.

It may be a silly rule, but it is a rule for reason. Outside factors should not influence a tennis match. That is why they silence the audience, why they are alone on the playfield. The match is between two individuals, not their coaches and whoever sits in their boxes.

He wasn’t caught red handed.  He just said he did it. There were no images showing him gesturing with Serena in direct line of sight or anything like that.

And in game coaching happens in all tennis matches outside of slams, so the aversion to outside influences can’t be that important.