Lollys Stokeworth's Rape

[Black Dragons]

Why wasn't she give the The Moon Tea? after they find her after the riot and what is it moon tea? I know is an abortion potion, but when a woman in first weeks should able to take to prevent the pregnancy. That is why Cersi and Shae is total witches in the books, they could suggest about potion to Lolly's mother man. 

[Light a wight tonight]

It probably would have been a good idea, but the whole situation in KL was pretty turbulent right then and nobody really cared much about poor Lollys anyhow. 

Overall, she didn't make out so badly. Bronn willingly marrried her, big tummy and all, and he's the kind of ruthless opportunist that will survive the upcoming chaos where the Stokeworths, who were pretty useless, would have been destroyed.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Because this is what GRRM decided.

[Rufus Snow]

I'd always assumed it was because of the physical trauma caused - it was said there were 'half a hundred' assailants, so it was especially brutal, and she was doubtless severely injured. Taking a herbal 'potion' can be quite unpleasant even for a fully healthy woman. In Lollys' case I think there would be a serious risk of haemorrhaging which could do permanent damage or even be a threat to her life.

[Nevets]

We know very little about moon tea, including its availability, effectiveness, or safety.  It could be that it was unavailable in KL, either normally or because of the disruptions caused by the war; that it wasn't effective; that it was too dangerous to give her, especially if she was injured.  Also, as someone pointed out, George apparently wanted her to get pregnant as a result of the rape.  and George's wishes override all other considerations.

[Lollygag]

Lollys was a virgin in her thirties with no prospects being dim-witted and very overweight. Her mother was desperate to hook her up with someone and was hounding Tyrion obsessively.

Her mom probably considered that this might be her only chance at a grandkid given that for all of the strikes against Lollys, there were now more.

 

[Kandrax]

Remember that Lysa almost died because of moontea, so probably they didn't wanted to risk.

[Light a wight tonight]

27 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Remember that Lysa almost died because of moontea, so probably they didn't wanted to risk.

What Lysa got was probably stronger than moon tea. It's referred to as tansy by Hoster. Moon tea is like a "morning after" preventive dose while tansy actually causes an abortion.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Why wasn't she give the The Moon Tea? after they find her after the riot and what is it moon tea? 

In CoK Tyrion IV     before the riot which left Lollys attacked and missing, Tyrion describes Lollys ---

Somehow she [the mother] had gotten the notion that a dwarf lordling would be the perfect consort for her daughter Lollys, a large, soft, dim-witted girl who rumor said was still a maid at thirty-and-three. "Send her my regrets."     "No taste for stuffed goose?" Bronn grinned evilly./

In these times of political correctness the above is a brassy statement.

During the riot and for the life of me I can’t recall what started the riot --- in CoK Tyrion IX , when most people arrived to safety ----  Lollys as well as Sansa seemed to be considered collateral damage.

Tyrion did not recall dismounting. Ser Mandon was helping the shaken king off his horse when Cersei, Tommen, and Lancel rode through the gates with Ser Meryn and Ser Boros close behind. Boros had blood smeared along his blade, while Meryn's white cloak had been torn from his back. Ser Balon Swann rode in helmetless, his mount lathered and bleeding at the mouth. Horas Redwyne brought in Lady Tanda, half-crazed with fear for her daughter Lollys, who had been knocked from the saddle and left behind./

I dunna know how the abortive substance works in Westeros. And I do not know how long Lollys was missing and subjugated to the multiple abuses upon her body. Do you?  Do you kinda think the Westeros abortive substance is equal to the morning after pill of our modern day practices?

1 hour ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

That is why Cersi and Shae is total witches in the books, they could suggest about potion to Lolly's mother man. 

My opinion is neither Cersei nor Shae care one iota about Lollys' well being.

[chrisdaw]

Openly abortion is likely considered immoral and Lady Tanda may be a true believer.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Why wasn't she give the The Moon Tea? after they find her after the riot and what is it moon tea? I know is an abortion potion, but when a woman in first weeks should able to take to prevent the pregnancy. That is why Cersi and Shae is total witches in the books, they could suggest about potion to Lolly's mother man. 

From what I gather, you need a woods witch to either make the tea or show you how to make it. My guess is that there aren't a lot of woods witches in KL, or near Stokeworth for that matter.

And none of the Stokeworths strike me as all that bright, so they might not even be aware that such things as moon tea and tansy even exist. And like @chrisdaw said, they also appear to be rather devout, so they might have moral objections.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

What Lysa got was probably stronger than moon tea. It's referred to as tansy by Hoster. Moon tea is like a "morning after" preventive dose while tansy actually causes an abortion.

I thought moon tea and tansy were one and the same, with tansy being an ingredient of moon tea.

[Seams]

Lollys plays a symbolic role in the books and her pregnancy is part of that.

The fact that the father is unknown seems important, as is the repeated line that she was raped "half a hundred" times. Also that the rapists were "smallfolk," I suspect. Bronn becoming her husband and treating her kindly and then naming the baby Tyrion is also significant, although I don't yet know exactly why. I think it has something to do with the sympathetic relationship of smallfolk / dwarf - Tyrion Lannister is small in stature and he has a rapport with the mountain clans, sellswords, whores, etc.

I suspect the much-maligned Lollys falls into the category of GRRM's fools - people who say wise things that are not recognized or appreciated by those around them. The reader takes everyone's word for it that Lollys is dimwitted without examining much direct evidence.

Consider this scene:

 

Quote

 

It was another sort of song, a terrible song. Sansa pulled the hood of her cloak up over her ears, and hurried toward Maegor's Holdfast, the castle-within-a-castle where the queen had promised they would all be safe. At the foot of the drawbridge, she came upon Lady Tanda and her two daughters. Falyse had arrived yesterday from Castle Stokeworth with a small troop of soldiers. She was trying to coax her sister onto the bridge, but Lollys clung to her maid, sobbing, "I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to."

"The battle is begun," Lady Tanda said in a brittle voice.

(ACoK, Sansa V)

 

 

Bridge crossing - very symbolic, having to do with transitions and life changes. (I suspect Maegor's Holdfast is the original playing field for the "game" of thrones, so reluctance to enter that inner castle is a sign of someone who does not want to play the game.) "The battle is begun" - very symbolic, probably alluding to the conversation between Catelyn and Brienne:

Quote

 

Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. "As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them."

"Children are a battle of a different sort." Catelyn started across the yard. "A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Carrying a child, bringing it into the world . . . your mother will have told you of the pain . . ."

(ACoK, Catelyn VI)

 

Lollys is being forced into the women's version of war - very violent and putting herself at great risk. Lollys repeating the same words over and over again - making her a symbolic raven (which are also in the fool category).

Another takeaway from the scene on the bridge, though, is that Lollys has a strong will. She has just been physically assaulted by strangers, and now she feels assaulted by her mother, sister and maid. Sansa is the only one who attempts to be kind to her, although she is trying to put a good face on a scary situation and Lollys may see through it. In the end, the force of the sister and maid end up winning and what Lollys wants is ignored yet again.

But maybe her mother and sister tried to get her to take tansy or moon tea, and Lollys put her foot down and refused. Maybe she was able to assert her strong will in that case. Or, as Nevets pointed out, a maester may have recommended against it for medical reasons. (Although childbirth would put her at greater risk, I would think. Maybe the hope was that she would gain some strength over the course of the nine months.)

I'm glad that she ends up with Bronn looking out for her.

[Light a wight tonight]

46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought moon tea and tansy were one and the same, with tansy being an ingredient of moon tea.

Moon tea would be tansy with buffers and stuff to make it milder, IMO. Moon tea is pretty commonly used so it can't be all that hard on the ladyparts the way full-strength tansy seems to be. But we never see too much clinical discussion, do we?

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Moon tea would be tansy with buffers and stuff to make it milder, IMO. Moon tea is pretty commonly used so it can't be all that hard on the ladyparts the way full-strength tansy seems to be. But we never see too much clinical discussion, do we?

Tell that to Lysa Tully.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought moon tea and tansy were one and the same, with tansy being an ingredient of moon tea.

Lol, I think this came up before, not too long ago?

If tansy is one ingredient in moon tea, then they can't very well be one and the same. My impression always was that when used as a conceptive moon tea either has no tansy or a low dose. To turn it into an abortifacient, they need to up the tansy to the point that it becomes what some may call tansy tea.

Lysa lists the ingredients of the moon tea that cause her miscarriage as "tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal", while Lady Smallwood speaks of maidens seeking tansy tea following visits by Tom o Seven. But it's probable that people use the two terms interchangeably.

It's pretty clear that tansy is the abortifacient, however, so I don't see any reason why they would need to give high doses of it if there is nothing to abort yet.

 

 

[Light a wight tonight]

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Lysa Tully.

 

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Lysa Tully.

As I said, Hoster talked about tansy, not moon tea. If moon tea was all that dangerous maesters wouldn't be providing it to young ladies the way they do. Dosage is important. In the real world digitalis is both a deadly poison and a treatment for a heart attack.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

From what I gather, you need a woods witch to either make the tea or show you how to make it. My guess is that there aren't a lot of woods witches in KL, or near Stokeworth for that matter.

And none of the Stokeworths strike me as all that bright, so they might not even be aware that such things as moon tea and tansy even exist. And like @chrisdaw said, they also appear to be rather devout, so they might have moral objections.

Or Pycelle? 

“Why does Margaery send for you?”
“She desires . . . she . . . she . . .”
“Say it!”
He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

Silver is the link for Maesters who've studied medicine. Pycelle has one. Luwin claims he can teach healing. Ballabar is considered a gifted healer. Frenken takes over for Ballabar at Tyrion's request. Colemon administers potions to SR. Granted not all of maesters are there and I'm sure not every maester knows how to make it.

Pycelle would be an obvious candidate, but I'd hazard a WAG of the combination of the Stokeworths not caring/wanting the kid and no one thought to do it.

 

[Angel Eyes]

36 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

 

As I said, Hoster talked about tansy, not moon tea. If moon tea was all that dangerous maesters wouldn't be providing it to young ladies the way they do. Dosage is important. In the real world digitalis is both a deadly poison and a treatment for a heart attack.

That makes Hoster an idiot. Unless he tried to kill his daughter...

[Tianzi]

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

and George's wishes override all other considerations.

Still, if his wishes make the characters act inconsistently, it's worth it to point out a plothole (even a minor one).

But in this case I think the answer is easy - if moon tea is any danger to woman's fertility or life, Lady Tanda would be shutting down any chance for prolonging the line, since Falyse is probably barren. (and Lollys is already in the age which's considered 'too old' for a bride in terms of bearing heirs, as we saw in Cersei's and the Tyrells' case).