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Paxter Redwyne

Exceptions from Lannister and Barathon features

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I was trying to find any exceptions from typical Lannister (golden hair, green eyes) and Baratheon (black hair, blue eyes) look. I found Tyrion with his mismatching eyes and mixture of blond and black hair, Daven who have hazel eyes and three daughters and one son having black hair from Lannister-Baratheon marriage some 120 years ago. Meanwhile I haven't found any Baratheons without black hair or blue eyes. Does anyone know any other exceptions?

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Ned and Catelyn's children, minus Arya, could count as exceptions from Starks.

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3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Ned and Catelyn's children, minus Arya, could count as exceptions from Starks.

I know, but I am trying to find exceptions from Baratheons and Lannisters respectively. Basically every Lannister have blond hair and green eyes when it shouldn't be possible considering that both these traits are recessive.

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17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Basically every Lannister have blond hair and green eyes when it shouldn't be possible considering that both these traits are recessive.

I believe this has been brought up with GRRM before, and he has stated that genetics in Planetos doesn't work the same way as on our humble planet. He said that he's writing fantasy, not sci fi, and therefore too much scrutiny into how hair/eye colour, etc. is passed down to children is probably not fruitful. The Baratheon/Lannister features are a plot device to clue the reader in on the twincest. 

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6 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I know, but I am trying to find exceptions from Baratheons and Lannisters respectively. Basically every Lannister have blond hair and green eyes when it shouldn't be possible considering that both these traits are recessive.

Didn't the missing Lannister cousin that squired with Lancel have brown, or sandy brown hair?  Ahhhhhhhhh, I can't think of his name off the top of my head, "Wet Nurse" the one married to the baby.  Tygett?  Something like that.  I don't feel like cheating and looking it up, LOL

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1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Didn't the missing Lannister cousin that squired with Lancel have brown, or sandy brown hair?  Ahhhhhhhhh, I can't think of his name off the top of my head, "Wet Nurse" the one married to the baby.  Tygett?  Something like that.  I don't feel like cheating and looking it up, LOL

It was Tion Frey, brother of Cleos. In theory he is not Lannister. For some reason golden hair tend to magically disappear if character is Lannister in female line instead male. I guess creatively it makes sense because GRRM wanted it happen, heh.

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Rhaenys Targaryen, "the queen who never was", had the typical valyrian features even though her mother was a Baratheon.

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

It was Tion Frey, brother of Cleos. In theory he is not Lannister. For some reason golden hair tend to magically disappear if character is Lannister in female line instead male. I guess creatively it makes sense because GRRM wanted it happen, heh.

Wait, no I meant Tyrek Lannister, the one that squired with Lancel.  Although, according to the Wiki, he is golden haired.  It's Lancel who is first described as sandy haired.  I always took that to mean.....dirty blonde, or light brown.  Granted, neither of these two are the main line, exactly.  Tywin reinforced the Lannister traits with Joanna, I suppose.  Lancel would be the son of Harys Swift's daughter and Kevin, Tyrek was the son of Tygett (I confused father and son by name), a brother to Tywin, and a Marbrand, according to the wiki.  Anyway, I recalled that with Lancel and Tyrek first appearing in the novels, one of them wasn't quite described as golden, turns out, that was Lancel and his sandy hair, whatever color GRRM considers that be, LOL  I've always taken that color, as I said, to be dirty blonde or light brown. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Wait, no I meant Tyrek Lannister, the one that squired with Lancel.  Although, according to the Wiki, he is golden haired.  It's Lancel who is first described as sandy haired.  I always took that to mean.....dirty blonde, or light brown.  Granted, neither of these two are the main line, exactly.  Tywin reinforced the Lannister traits with Joanna, I suppose.  Lancel would be the son of Harys Swift's daughter and Kevin, Tyrek was the son of Tygett (I confused father and son by name), a brother to Tywin, and a Marbrand, according to the wiki.  Anyway, I recalled that with Lancel and Tyrek first appearing in the novels, one of them wasn't quite described as golden, turns out, that was Lancel and his sandy hair, whatever color GRRM considers that be, LOL  I've always taken that color, as I said, to be dirty blonde or light brown. 

 

 

It looks like that GRRM uses term "sandy hair" as synonym to light blond hair. So I guess it still counts as "golden" hair. His brother Willem and father Kevan also were described as having blond hair. 

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13 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I was trying to find any exceptions from typical Lannister (golden hair, green eyes) and Baratheon (black hair, blue eyes) look. I found Tyrion with his mismatching eyes and mixture of blond and black hair, Daven who have hazel eyes and three daughters and one son having black hair from Lannister-Baratheon marriage some 120 years ago. Meanwhile I haven't found any Baratheons without black hair or blue eyes. Does anyone know any other exceptions?

Renly had green eyes until A Clash of Kings

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I keep wondering where this Baratheon black hair came from, given that Orys was (allegedly) a Targ bastard in the first place... and the surname for that matter, why not a Waters? I want more info on the origins of House Baratheon.... anyone have any insights???

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I keep wondering where this Baratheon black hair came from, given that Orys was (allegedly) a Targ bastard in the first place... and the surname for that matter, why not a Waters? I want more info on the origins of House Baratheon.... anyone have any insights???

As far as I know, Orys was a friend of Aegon and was rumored to be his half brother.  He became the Lord of Storm's End by marrying the last Durrandon -- Argella.  Orys killed Argellas father in battle.  She vowed to fight him and was betrayed.  She was stripped naked and put in chains.  She then was expected to marry him.  Orys took the sigil and words of his wife's family but kept his name.  It was through her that he was able to secure the Stormlands for his friend Aegon.  Orys was loyal to Aegon and helped him as much as he could.  

I think the Baratheon looks came from Argella and her ancestors, the storm kings.

I found this info in the wiki.  

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On 3/5/2018 at 3:56 AM, goldenmaps said:

As far as I know, Orys was a friend of Aegon and was rumored to be his half brother.  He became the Lord of Storm's End by marrying the last Durrandon -- Argella.  Orys killed Argellas father in battle.  She vowed to fight him and was betrayed.  She was stripped naked and put in chains.  She then was expected to marry him.  Orys took the sigil and words of his wife's family but kept his name.  It was through her that he was able to secure the Stormlands for his friend Aegon.  Orys was loyal to Aegon and helped him as much as he could.  

I think the Baratheon looks came from Argella and her ancestors, the storm kings.

I found this info in the wiki.  

Thanks for the reply - all this is known, for sure, but the question was really how he had a 'House' name if he was indeed a royal bastard - under the normal run of things you'd expect him to be a Waters, so there must be more to the story before the Conquest. I mean, he could have been raised up from humble roots, in like fashion to Davos becoming the first 'Seaworth'; or he could have been a bastard planted into an existing family, but then he wouldn't be counted as the House founder....

It's quite possible the looks came from the Durrandon side, as you say. Worth trawling through the sources to see if there's any mention of Durrandon looks. In a Westerosi context you might expect 'strong seed' in a line descended from Elenei.

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15 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Thanks for the reply - all this is known, for sure, but the question was really how he had a 'House' name if he was indeed a royal bastard - under the normal run of things you'd expect him to be a Waters, so there must be more to the story before the Conquest. I mean, he could have been raised up from humble roots, in like fashion to Davos becoming the first 'Seaworth'; or he could have been a bastard planted into an existing family, but then he wouldn't be counted as the House founder....

It's quite possible the looks came from the Durrandon side, as you say. Worth trawling through the sources to see if there's any mention of Durrandon looks. In a Westerosi context you might expect 'strong seed' in a line descended from Elenei.

Considering that Orys grew up in Essos most likely or maybe Dragonstone, i wouldn't think that he would have the Waters name.  That seemed to only apply to the Crownlands, I believe.  People i think assumed he was a bastard because Orys was close to Aegon.  I believe that they had a very close friendship.  Don't have a clue where the Baratheon name came from.  Maybe it came from his mother.  Maybe it was just a made up name.  But, he does have a name.  Don't know where it came from.

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37 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Thanks for the reply - all this is known, for sure, but the question was really how he had a 'House' name if he was indeed a royal bastard - under the normal run of things you'd expect him to be a Waters, so there must be more to the story before the Conquest. I mean, he could have been raised up from humble roots, in like fashion to Davos becoming the first 'Seaworth'; or he could have been a bastard planted into an existing family, but then he wouldn't be counted as the House founder....

It's quite possible the looks came from the Durrandon side, as you say. Worth trawling through the sources to see if there's any mention of Durrandon looks. In a Westerosi context you might expect 'strong seed' in a line descended from Elenei.

I think that it's plot convenience. If Robert should sit on the Iron Throne, he is supposed to have Targ blood.

So House Baratheon must exist to take over the rule from their distant relatives in case the Targs screw things up, like Aerys did. 

 

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