Gun Control: The Tree Of Liberty Must Be Refreshed From Time To Time With The Blood Of Children And Innocents

[Altherion]

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

The cognitive dissonance displayed by those who fully support the NRA is likely unrivalled in the field of American politics, perhaps with deference to those who favor any military action abroad or back capitalism axiomatically.

I am pretty sure that for a fairly large fraction of them, it's not cognitive dissonance, but rather an unwillingness to openly provide the real reason for their support...

[Rippounet]

First, apologies for my mistake on the casualty of the latest attack in Paris.

14 hours ago, Altherion said:

I am pretty sure that for a fairly large fraction of them, it's not cognitive dissonance, but rather an unwillingness to openly provide the real reason for their support...

What would that be?

BTW apparently there was an intriguing moment on TV when Bill Maher and others pointed out that with Trump in charge, it's odd for liberals to dismiss the argument that having guns can protect citizens against a tyrannical government.

The entire discussion on guns is surreal and scary. It's like guns are really the symptom of how much distrust and hatred individuals have for their government(s) and each other.

[Errant Bard]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

BTW apparently there was an intriguing on TV when Bill Maher and others pointed out that with Trump in charge, it's odd for liberals to dismiss the argument that having guns can protect citizens against a tyrannical government.

 

That idea of Maher bothers me, because it implies that he thinks that:

1) random joe with a handgun would be able to stand against the government's forces (hahahaha)

2) Liberals push against guns because they want a (liberal) totalitarian state, not because they want less death

3) The gun nuts reflex when they don't like the government is to go for their guns.

Quote

The entire discussion on guns is surreal and scary. It's like guns are really the symptom of how much distrust and hatred individuals have for their government(s) and each other.

 distrust is everywhere, guns or no guns, though.

[Rippounet]

Here's the bit I'm talking about.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/12/killer_mike_maher_defend_gun_rights_not_comfortable_being_unarmed_police_are_not.html

And what Maher himself said:

Quote

MAHER: But when you talk about tyranny... I've been saying for a long time that Donald Trump is bringing fascism to this country. Madeleine Albright wrote an op-ed in the New York Times a few weeks ago saying the same thing. She said fascism is coming. Okay. The shoe's on the other foot now. If you really believe that Donald Trump is an authoritarian leader capable of using force to suppress the opposition I wonder if liberals are going to be rethinking their feelings about guns a little bit.

 

Quote

 distrust is everywhere, guns or no guns, though.

In politicians? Yes. But people being terrified of each other? I dunno.

Anyway I see it as a mere symptom, one among many.
There's also this idea that the current state of affairs on guns in the US was all caused by the emergence of black radicalism, and that the history of racial tensions in the US is the real explanation for the distrust and fear that Americans experience.

[James Arryn]

Brainwave: let’s rephrase the victims of gun violence as the ‘2nd Ammendment tax’. 

[Yukle]

6 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The entire discussion on guns is surreal and scary. It's like guns are really the symptom of how much distrust and hatred individuals have for their government(s) and each other.

I have to agree there. In a society where individuals trust and understand each other, even if guns were allowed, there'd be no need to own them. It probably wouldn't occur to you that you'd "need" one.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

I have to agree there. In a society where individuals trust and understand each other, even if guns were allowed, there'd be no need to own them. It probably wouldn't occur to you that you'd "need" one.

I’ve been over a lot of the world. Canoed to Hudson’s Bay, played SL ball in Florida, hitchhiked across Germany, ran from riot police in Istanbul, marched in protest against the treatment of refugees in Vienna, watched the night lit up like fireworks by bombs falling over the Eastern Med, slept beside a dirt road in Cambodia, walked across England on my own, got windbound on a tiny island in the South Pacific, worked as an escort in Toronto, couchsurfed more places than I can remember, spent a few nights in jail, saw skinhheads throw bottles into huddled refugee families in Budapest, spent years working in bars and cattle call modelling, i’ve been mugged, doped, and ‘detained’ by immigration officers, and a million other adventures and I can honestly say it has never once occurred to me that I ‘needed’ a gun. 

What i’m saying is, I think the thought leads the need, not the other way around. 

[Yukle]

34 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

What i’m saying is, I think the thought leads the need, not the other way around. 

That also makes sense.

In most cases, it feels as though the loonies from the gun-lobby have already decided they want guns no matter what it costs. They simply take whatever argument suits what they've already decided.

I like your cutting words: a "2nd Amendment tax".

[Larry of the Lawn]

36 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

 

What i’m saying is, I think the thought leads the need, not the other way around. 

Yup.  And of course, the constitutional protection means that they don't need a reason to have one.  

[Yukle]

11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Yup.  And of course, the constitutional protection means that they don't need a reason to have one.  

That constitutional protection is also complete bullshit. DC versus Heller was the greatest effort of self-destruction a developed nation has managed to inflict upon itself using its judiciary.

Also, that comment is hyperbole, nobody need point it out. Just that it's a stupid decision.

[Altherion]

11 hours ago, Rippounet said:

What would that be?

They're a deterrent and, if that does not work, insurance. You have to understand that the American government (at all levels) is very good at ignoring laws which people in power find advantageous to ignore. For example, illegal immigration -- a flagrant violation of the law on massive scale (not only on the part of the migrants, but also on that of those who employ them) -- has been happening for decades without any action that made any impact on it. For a less politicized example which involves local rather than federal policy, despite the existence of the Fourth Amendment, there exists a process called civil forfeiture by which law enforcement can seize property and the burden of proof for getting it back is on the person to whom it belongs. Firearms are far from being a perfect deterrent for such behavior, but they help keep things from getting completely out of hand.

[Darth Richard II]

15 minutes ago, Altherion said:

They're a deterrent and, if that does not work, insurance. You have to understand that the American government (at all levels) is very good at ignoring laws which people in power find advantageous to ignore. For example, illegal immigration -- a flagrant violation of the law on massive scale (not only on the part of the migrants, but also on that of those who employ them) -- has been happening for decades without any action that made any impact on it. For a less politicized example which involves local rather than federal policy, despite the existence of the Fourth Amendment, there exists a process called civil forfeiture by which law enforcement can seize property and the burden of proof for getting it back is on the person to whom it belongs. Firearms are far from being a perfect deterrent for such behavior, but they help keep things from getting completely out of hand.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

Firearms are far from being a perfect deterrent for such behavior, but they help keep things from getting completely out of hand.

I'm not entirely sure I follow. To me, firearms seem to be the aspect of society that are out of hand.

[Errant Bard]

5 hours ago, Altherion said:

 Firearms are far from being a perfect deterrent for such behavior, but they help keep things from getting completely out of hand.

Forgive me, but from the outside, it seemed to me the mere potential of a firearm was the reason black kids were shot on sight when they had a phone, a water gun or even nothing in their hands. That is at odds with the idea of deterrence, I would rather classify it as fuel for government violence/brutality/lack of restraint.

Also in the abstract, I can see a case (if it wasn't contradicted by facts) where the possibility to be shot would prevent a local government agent to oppress the defenseless people, but I can't fathom how anyone would think the local government, as in the whole lot of them, if they wanted to oppress you, wouldn't deploy military grade stuff and mow you down, like in St Louis? (or was it Baltimore?)

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 hours ago, Altherion said:

They're a deterrent and, if that does not work, insurance. You have to understand that the American government (at all levels) is very good at ignoring laws which people in power find advantageous to ignore. For example, illegal immigration -- a flagrant violation of the law on massive scale (not only on the part of the migrants, but also on that of those who employ them) -- has been happening for decades without any action that made any impact on it. For a less politicized example which involves local rather than federal policy, despite the existence of the Fourth Amendment, there exists a process called civil forfeiture by which law enforcement can seize property and the burden of proof for getting it back is on the person to whom it belongs. Firearms are far from being a perfect deterrent for such behavior, but they help keep things from getting completely out of hand.

I'm doubting that a cop is going to abandon his nefarious civil forfeiture if he suspects the citizen(s) he's detaining in the process are armed.  See "War on Drugs (the entire)" entry, in particular civil forfeiture's basis an exception to the 4th amendment specifically made to deal with drug crimes.

Immigration contravenes laws for the same reason that people speed in vehicles.  It has to be against the law to prevent a completely porous border (where are the libertarians on this one, impure chumps?), but provides some legal framework to provide for the removal of someone.  Similarly, most drivers speed every single day, and enforcement is usually reserved for the most flagrant violations.  

The only way firearms change police behavior is by giving them an extra excuse to act on racist urges and murder brown people with some legal protection when they get their feelings a'scared.

[DMC]

Multiple deaths reported in a Houston-area high school shooting...

[Fragile Bird]

Local stations are reporting at least 8 dead.

"Multiple fatalities" is such a depressing phrase.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

From the article:

Quote

This is the third school shooting in the past seven days, and the 22nd since the beginning of the year in the United States.

 

[Trebla]

'Murica.

 

[Lykos]

This is not good - strength and power to all that suffer now.

Beirut - Santa Fe

Your days in one
This day undone
(The kind that breaks under)
All day at once
(for me, for you)
I'm just too young
(And what of my heart)
This day was once
(Silence before)
All grace of lost
Can't wait at all
(Can't wait at all)
Temptation won

And what ever comes through the door
I'll see it face to face
All by your place

Sign me up Santa Fe
And call your son
Sign me up Santa Fe
On the cross Santa Fe
And all I want
Sign me up Santa Fe
And call your son

And I and I and I alone want you to know
And I and I and I alone
And I and I and I alone want you to know
And I and I and I alone

Your days in one
This day undone
(The kind that breaks under)
All day at once
(for me, for you)
I'm just too young
(And what of my heart)

Sign me up Santa Fe
And call your son
Sign me up Santa Fe
On the cross Santa Fe
And all I want
Sign me up Santa Fe
And call your son