Gun Control: The Tree Of Liberty Must Be Refreshed From Time To Time With The Blood Of Children And Innocents

[Guy Kilmore]

23 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Id say the average person in America, if not able to legally purchase, could easily get their hands on a gun. And, please stop. I don't run with criminals. I have like 2 really good, upstanding citizens as friends. But, if I needed one, or wanted (I don't) it would not be hard to find one. And, I'm sure that's the case with most Americans. We all know someone with multiple guns, and they know people with even more guns. Money makes the world go round.

How does this argument make any sense?  You are saying that someone can easily get something illegally that is widely available legally? 

And you keep saying "most" Americans.  Prove it.

Right now, more Americans want some kind of gun control than don't, and while 43% of American Households have a gun, only 28% of Americans own a gun.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/186236/americans-desire-stricter-gun-laws-sharply.aspx

And, just noticing you keep saying if you make something illegal, people will keep doing illegal things, how long have you been for Anarchy?  I mean, I know some people who have a gun, but I know far more people who speed, so by your logic, we shouldn't have speed limits.

[Esmenet]

8 minutes ago, Guy Kilmore said:

How does this argument make any sense?  You are saying that someone can easily get something illegally that is widely available legally?  No duh?

And you keep saying "most" Americans.  Prove it.

Right now, more Americans want some kind of gun control than don't, and while 43% of American Households have a gun, only 28% of Americans own a gun.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/186236/americans-desire-stricter-gun-laws-sharply.aspx

And, just noticing you keep saying if you make something illegal, people will keep doing illegal things, how long have you been for Anarchy?

Well, are you American? Do you know anyone who owns multiple guns? If not, take a poll. I'd say it's nearly 100%. All kinds of things are illegal and people keep doing them, what planet do you live on? We have jails and prisons overflowing as proof to that statement. Look, I'm just approaching this with common sense. Just because its illegal does not stop a people from doing those illegal things. Thats just wishful thinking onthe anti-gun side of the debate.

ETA: But, most people do know someone with guns, multiple people for that matter. You dont think its a valid argument, because you dont like the reality of it. It doesnt jive with your political stance. 

[Esmenet]

I'm all for stricter gun laws myself, ive stated that multiple times. So, your link is senseless. I know most people, left or right would like to see them. Thats not the argument here. 

[Guy Kilmore]

22 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Well, are you American? Do you know anyone who owns multiple guns? If not, take a poll. I'd say it's nearly 100%. All kinds of things are illegal and people keep doing them, what planet do you live on? We have jails and prisons overflowing as proof to that statement. Look, I'm just approaching this with common sense. Just because its illegal does not stop a people from doing those illegal things. Thats just wishful thinking onthe anti-gun side of the debate.

ETA: But, most people do know someone with guns, multiple people for that matter. You dont think its a valid argument, because you dont like the reality of it. It doesnt jive with your political stance. 

I am an American.  I have stated no preference to my policy stance.  I just provided summary statistics as to what Most American think and feel

Yes, prisons are overflowing, are you saying because there are laws?  Is that your argument?  Are you saying people do legal things at the same rate as illegal things?  If you are stating that, prove it, your "common sense" should be supported by easily observed facts.

Your "common sense" seems really flawed that I dispute the commonality or sensibility of it.

 

[Guy Kilmore]

21 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

I'm all for stricter gun laws myself, ive stated that multiple times. So, your link is senseless. I know most people, left or right would like to see them. Thats not the argument here. 

Then what are you arguing about?  Who are you arguing with?  I'm hard pressed to find someone who said that there needed to be 100% ban on all firearms?  Or are you just setting up a strawman to tilt against?  

You also said MOST Americans could get a gun illegally, I am demonstrating that MOST Americans when presented with LEGAL gun ownership opt to NOT own a gun.  So why would they suddenly want an illegal firearm?

[DanteGabriel]

Lol, "I am for stricter gun laws but let me move some goalposts and use 'common sense' to argue why they don't work. In my common-sense-based argument I'll throw out some self contradictory personal anecdotes about people who don't exist to support my claim that the gun laws I support wouldn't stop people from getting guns."

I marked this numpty within three posts.

[Week]

Trolling yet again it seems -- it's irrelevant at this point whether it is intentional or not. 

[Esmenet]

Well, if you go back to my post that I replied to Kalbear, what I was trying to do was foster conversation on what would significantly lower gun-related homicides. Because, as I showed, those states/cities with stricter gun laws still have among the highest gun-related murder cases. The whole deal about buying illegal guns if you wanted tonwas a derailment, I had with another poster. And, I'm just answering his questions honestly. I'm not trolling, why would you say that? Someone asked me questions and I gave my opinion about it. Is having a different opinion trolling?

Yet, thats the way to ignore my question. Which no one, not one person has even attempted to answer. If stricter gun laws doesn't stop gun-related murders, what will? But, I'm the one being disingenuous? Instead of throwing out claims of trolling, answer my question. But, no. Trolling is easier, because NO ONE HAS A F'N CLUE WHAT WILL STOP THEM! I looked up and provided evidence that gun-related murders are on the rise. No one seems to want to address it though. You just call me a racist and a troll. 

[Guy Kilmore]

I am just so tired.  I work with youth and I am in and out of schools constantly.  This week, I had three kids, ages 12, 15 and 16 tell me there plans on what they would do if there was a shooter, how they would protect themselves, those they love and hopefully live.  How they are trying to identify kids who are at risk and find some healthy way of dealing with them.  And they are asking me it is enough?

And the adults in America, right now are fucking failing them.  Failing them so god damn hard.  They are finding reasons in their "clear eyed common sense" why something just can't be done, it can't change.  

Too many people in prison, people will just keep breaking the laws, then lets talk about prison reform, that is NOT an excuse.

It is mental health, guns are just a tool, then lets stop cutting funds for mental health treatment like we JUST DID, for those MOST at risk. (Medical Assistance is no longer providing funding to children residential treatment centers.)  Lets talk about what we need to invest in our medical systems and education to do it.  There are NOT enough providers to address the mental health concerns that exist today.

There isn't enough information to make an informed decision.  Then lets allow the CDC to do actual research on gun violence, lets find out the information, lets do something

There is too much money, Corporate greed.  Then lets become educated consumers and inform ourselves.

While we are doing all these fucking things, lets look and see if we can do something with guns and make our kids just a little bit safer.  Make it a little bit tougher to mow down 50 people.  You know, other places in the world have figured it out.  I always thought Americans prided themselves on being able to take the best of what people brought to the country and making it better.  What a joke.

So when you just decide to sit on your hands, you are fucking failing your kids.

I am tired of failing our youth, so very tired of it.  And I know they are getting sick of it.

[Guy Kilmore]

1 minute ago, Esmenet said:

Well, if you go back to my post that I replied to Kalbear, what I was trying to do was foster conversation on what would significantly lower gun-related homicides. Because, as I showed, those states/cities with stricter gun laws still have among the highest gun-related murder cases. The whole deal about buying illegal guns if you wanted tonwas a derailment, I had with another poster. And, I'm just answering his questions honestly. I'm not trolling, why would you say that? Someone asked me questions and I gave my opinion about it. Is having a different opinion trolling?

Yet, thats the way to ignore my question. Which no one, not one person has even attempted to answer. If stricter gun laws doesn't stop gun-related murders, what will? But, I'm the one being disingenuous? Instead of throwing out claims of trolling, answer my question. But, no. Trolling is easier, because NO ONE HAS A F'N CLUE WHAT WILL STOP THEM! I looked up and provided evidence that gun-related murders are on the rise. No one seems to want to address it though. You just call me a racist and a troll. 

Great, so get on your senator and representative, lets get the CDC researching gun violence.  Lets look to see what other Western Developed nations have done to curb gun violence in their countries.

The last isn't true, other places have curbed gun violence, what have they done?  We do have clues, just people don't have the will for whatever reason.

Stop failing your kids.

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Esmenet said:

I'm not referring to school/mass shootings, never have in any of my posts. Yes, the majority of inner city people are of color. How does that make me racist? People are too quick to throw that word around. I imagine you believe in white privilege, no? Well, that makes rhe case that by just being white, you are at an advantage. I'm talking about murder by gun rates in inner cities. Would it be false that the majority of those are committed by non whites? Its why I think giving those in the inner city slums, where these murders occur, and are overwhelmingly African-American, bwtter education, healthcare and legalizing marijuana would benefit this portion of society. Its not a racist comment, it's fact.

You are still confusing the numbers of people of all colors killed by guns, and particularly black people killed by gun, killed by white people with guns.

Yes, all those social values of education should be available to all, but are not.  Yet guns are available to all (though people of color are still not supposed to have them -- see policing black bodies by white people in public spaces) and it is black people who are killed at a far higher number by white people than black people are killed by other black people.  And more white people kill white people than black people kill white people.  So what are you making of that?

You are still placing the blame of violence generally and gun violence particularly on black people, and entirely ignoring the role of white people with guns in gun violence.

[Esmenet]

@Guy Kilmore, I suggested alot of what your sarcastically saying to me. We need to provide better healthcare, jobs and education in the areas where these murders are most prevalent. I already posted these things. I understand what dumbass Trump did. I know how it put us further back a few decades. But, everyone ignored that. I vote and am involved in my community in many ways. This is all things that need addressed, I agree, I already posted that. Trump has refunded education, healthcare and hasnt added any meaningful jobs. I was trying to have this conversation and I guess I wasn't taking seriously. We have protocols at my kids school to prevent school shootings. Our schools are fenced in. You cannot just walk into any of our schools, we have officers at each of them. I just simply stated that by making something illegal, doesnt mean people still wont do those illegal things. Is that being a troll? Or, a fact of life? 

[Esmenet]

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You are still confusing the numbers of people of all colors killed by guns, and particularly black people killed by gun, killed by white people with guns.

 

No, I'm not. Your confusing what I'm saying. I'm talking about Big cities, and the poorer areas where most the gun-related murder rates are the highest. Thats all I was discussing. Your conveying what you think of me into your posts. I know people of every color kill those of other colors. But, thats not what my post was about. But, go ahead and make it whatever makes you feel good.

[Guy Kilmore]

8 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

@Guy Kilmore, I suggested alot of what your sarcastically saying to me. We need to provide better healthcare, jobs and education in the areas where these murders are most prevalent. I already posted these things. I understand what dumbass Trump did. I know how it put us further back a few decades. But, everyone ignored that. I vote and am involved in my community in many ways. This is all things that need addressed, I agree, I already posted that. Trump has refunded education, healthcare and hasnt added any meaningful jobs. I was trying to have this conversation and I guess I wasn't taking seriously. We have protocols at my kids school to prevent school shootings. Our schools are fenced in. You cannot just walk into any of our schools, we have officers at each of them. I just simply stated that by making something illegal, doesnt mean people still wont do those illegal things. Is that being a troll? Or, a fact of life? 

See, I am not being sarcastic.  I am being serious, more so than I have EVER been in this board in a long while.  How many homicidal/suicidal kids have you spoken with?  I do so on a regular basis.  How many schools do you interact with on a daily basis?  What happens with those school plans when the kids no longer trust the adults?

I heard your argument and you dismissed NUMBERS, actual FACTS.  Only 20 odd percent of Americans own a gun.  What are you trying to say, by making something illegal, that number go up?  That number will stay the same, that number will go down?  What proof do you have of that change in the number? 

To get back to the sarcasm projection, the fact that you are taking what I am saying as "sarcastic" already bespeaks of the emotional blinders you need to put up to distance yourself from what I said.  Because right now, the argument you are making makes you appear like you are choosing to FAIL America's youth and your kids. 

I can't do that anymore.

 

[Esmenet]

1 minute ago, Guy Kilmore said:

See, I am not being sarcastic.  I am being serious, more so than I have EVER been in this board in a long while.  How many homicidal/suicidal kids have you spoken with?  I do so on a regular basis.  How many schools do you interact with on a daily basis?  What happens with those school plans when the kids no longer trust the adults?

I heard your argument and you dismissed NUMBERS, actual FACTS.  Only 20 odd percent of Americans own a gun.  What are you trying to say, by making something illegal, that number go up?  That number will stay the same, that number will go down?  What proof do you have of that change in the number?

To get back, the fact that you are taking what I am saying as "sarcastic" already bespeaks of the emotional blinders you need to put up to distance yourself from what I said.  Because right now, the argument you are making makes you appear like you are choosing to FAIL America's youth and your kids.  I can't do that anymore.

 

No, I dont speak to suicidal kids. If that opportunity presented itself, I definitely would. I commend you for your efforts.

I said 40% because I couldn't remember the exact % from the article. Sorry. No, I do not think that number will go up. What I was saying is that legal or not, criminals will be able to get guns, thats it.

And, excuse me for thinking you was being sarcastic, because what you suggested, was exactly what I suggested in an earlier post.

[Esmenet]

Also, how am I appearing to fail America's kids? I dont get that.

[lessthanluke]

2 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

No, I dont speak to suicidal kids. If that opportunity presented itself, I definitely would. I commend you for your efforts.

I said 40% because I couldn't remember the exact % from the article. Sorry. No, I do not think that number will go up. What I was saying is that legal or not, criminals will be able to get guns, thats it.

And, excuse me for thinking you was being sarcastic, because what you suggested, was exactly what I suggested in an earlier post.

A lot of the people who commit these mass shootings aren't criminals before the shooting occurs. 

[Kalbear]

36 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Well, if you go back to my post that I replied to Kalbear, what I was trying to do was foster conversation on what would significantly lower gun-related homicides. Because, as I showed, those states/cities with stricter gun laws still have among the highest gun-related murder cases. The whole deal about buying illegal guns if you wanted tonwas a derailment, I had with another poster. And, I'm just answering his questions honestly. I'm not trolling, why would you say that? Someone asked me questions and I gave my opinion about it. Is having a different opinion trolling?

We have a whole lot of evidence that gun-related homicides and suicides drop with more strict gun regulations, both in US states and abroad. They do not ever equal zero, but they are significantly reduced. That's the general statement.

Now, if you're trying to solve a specific problem like Chicago's murder rate, that may require different solutions than simply restriction of gun violence - because there the gun violence is related so heavily to gang violence, and that requires potentially different solutions than simply restriction of guns. But as much of a murder rate as Chicago has, the rest of the US is WAY WAY WORSE. And that ignores the 20k people that kill themselves annually via suicide, and it ignores the non-murder deaths that guns account for. 

36 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Yet, thats the way to ignore my question. Which no one, not one person has even attempted to answer. If stricter gun laws doesn't stop gun-related murders, what will?

But...they do in most cases. That's why people are ignoring this argument - because it's based on fallacious reasoning. 

36 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

But, I'm the one being disingenuous? Instead of throwing out claims of trolling, answer my question. But, no. Trolling is easier, because NO ONE HAS A F'N CLUE WHAT WILL STOP THEM! I looked up and provided evidence that gun-related murders are on the rise. No one seems to want to address it though. You just call me a racist and a troll. 

That's because you keep stating something that isn't true as if it were true. 

[Esmenet]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That's because you keep stating something that isn't true as if it were true. 

Which is?

[Week]

Just now, Esmenet said:

Which is?

Do you understand that strict gun laws in one state are undermined by weak guns laws in another state? How many times has that been explained to you? You still blame inner city Chicago for it's violence while 60% of the guns are from out of state and 20%+ are specifically from Indiana. -- This is also seen at the border of the US and Mexico were a State with lax gun laws (the US) allows a flow of guns (including automatic weapons) which are more difficult to procure in Mexico. Note, Mexican drug cartels would rather 'legally' purchase firearms in the US with straw buyers than buy weapons illegally in Mexico. 

Consistency of background checks and more restrictive gun laws across states will absolutely cause a reduction in gun violence -- assault, suicide, etc.