Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls

[SirArthur]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 I was referring to the origin years of the Wall. I don't recall if it's been reported how many men the Wall had in the beginning, but we can assume by the number of castles along the Wall that there was a large and ever increasing force. I think we can safely assume every castle along the Wall had cells.

We know exactly how many castles were at the Wall when it was build: 1, the Nightfort. For about 4000 years. 

Also the point about the prison cells was more about the Nightfort and that only the deep stone vaults remain from its first form. Of course we do not know if the dungeons are in the deep stone vaults. 

[Melifeather]

I know this is from the show, S4 dvd exactly, but it's the backstory and lore of the wilding:

 

 

[LynnS]

If the Wall was constructed using magic across 400 miles all at once; then perhaps the walls (plural) are magic barriers rather than just ice and stone.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Perhaps the curtain of light is the second wall, which seems to contain or surround the heart of winter.

I'm guessing that the ice Wall contains a similar curtain of magic wards but concealed within the Wall itself.  Otherwise how would it be an effective barrier if it was originally much smaller?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

Was this the sacrifice that built the Wall/curtain of light?   Perhaps the Walls are inner and outer wards?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The three men walked together from the throne room. Outside the snow was swirling round the outer ward, a caged beast howling to be free. "Have you ever felt such cold?" asked Ser Harys.

"The time to speak of the cold," said Grand Maester Pycelle, "is not when we are standing out in it." He made his slow way across the outer ward, back to his chambers.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

What is the caged beast howling alone in the darkness; a death that is worse than death?

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

We know exactly how many castles were at the Wall when it was build: 1, the Nightfort. For about 4000 years. 

Also the point about the prison cells was more about the Nightfort and that only the deep stone vaults remain from its first form. Of course we do not know if the dungeons are in the deep stone vaults. 

Exactly so. We're specifically told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle on the Wall and twice as old as Castle Black. Even then its ambiguous as to how old it is. The Black Gate beneath it is said to be as old as the Wall but as we've discussed before, given its nature it may be older that the castle

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

We know exactly how many castles were at the Wall when it was build: 1, the Nightfort. For about 4000 years. 

Also the point about the prison cells was more about the Nightfort and that only the deep stone vaults remain from its first form. Of course we do not know if the dungeons are in the deep stone vaults. 

If the Wall is 400 miles long they all could not feasibly stay at the Nightfort. Groups of the Nights Watch with officers and their own prisoners of wildlings and giants would need to be stationed all along the Wall to do the building. Wooden, less permanent structures could've been built before the castles while the main work of building the Wall would have had priority.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Was this the sacrifice that built the Wall/curtain of light? 

All things are possible but in the context I would say that its those who couldn't fly and so failed the test.

The fact there are so many, suggests that Bran isn't merely being groomed as a replacement for Bloodraven but is the Prince that was promised thousands of years ago.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so. We're specifically told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle on the Wall and twice as old as Castle Black. Even then its ambiguous as to how old it is. The Black Gate beneath it is said to be as old as the Wall but as we've discussed before, given its nature it may be older that the castle

I propose that the Nightfort was built at the time of the Nights King in the early years of building the Wall. They would have needed a fortress to contain the Nights King and his weirwood in that well.

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Wall is 400 miles long they all could not feasibly stay at the Nightfort. Groups of the Nights Watch with officers and their own prisoners of wildlings and giants would need to be stationed all along the Wall to do the building. Wooden less permanent structures could've been built before the castles while the main work of building the Wall would have had priority.

But, as we've discussed before, if the Wall was raised and warded by magic there was no need for a garrison or builders, hence the lack of castles - until the Nights King was overthrown.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

But, as we've discussed before, if the Wall was raised and warded by magic there was no need for a garrison or builders, hence the lack of castles - until the Nights King was overthrown.

That isn't a theory I ascribe to. The warding wouldn't work on people. The warding is to prevent the people from working magic.

The Wall is a physical barrier to keep the wildlings in, but the magic doesn't keep them from climbing over it.

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I propose that the Nightfort was built at the time of the Nights King in the early years of building the Wall. They would have needed a fortress to contain the Nights King and his weirwood in that well.

As I said, the gate is certainly as old as the Wall, but if it was just a matter of 13 heroes headed by the Nights King watching over that gate then a mighty fortress wasn't required - hence the absence of any castles

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

As I said, the gate is certainly as old as the Wall, but if it was just a matter of 13 heroes headed by the Nights King watching over that gate then a mighty fortress wasn't required - hence the absence of any castles

This isn't a proven fact. What you are asserting as fact is a theory. Logically wells would have been the first structures completed to support the Watch and wildlings along the Wall. 

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

That isn't a theory I ascribe to. The warding wouldn't work on people. The warding is to prevent the people from working magic.

The Wall is a physical barrier to keep the wildlings in, but the magic doesn't keep them from climbing over it.

The Romans managed perfectly well with a 10 foot high wall. This one wasn't built against people and that, as Mormont ruefully admitted, was the problem because the Watch had forgotten that their job wasn't to keep the Wildlings penned up, but something quite different

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

This isn't a proven fact. What you are asserting as fact is a theory. Logically wells would have been the first structures completed to support the Watch and wildlings along the Wall. 

But it aint a water supply, its primarily a Stairway to Hell and the Black Gate

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

All things are possible but in the context I would say that its those who couldn't fly and so failed the test.

The fact there are so many, suggests that Bran isn't merely being groomed as a replacement for Bloodraven but is the Prince that was promised thousands of years ago.

If Bran is the PwiP; then the meaning of the woods witch prophecy is rather strange since Bran doesn't come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

I have thought that the specific wording relates to something else:

- that the prince was promised (a dragon in marriage?)

- from the line of Aerys and Rhaella 

It's Doran Martell who ties up all of Aerys/Rhaella's offspring through marriage contracts, including Dany, although the contract that Oberyn signs with Willen Derry doesn't include her specifically.  So a promise concerning the line of Aerys/Rhaella was made to Sunspear.

Doran's interest in the Citadel is also interesting since Oberyn spent time there and now Sarella on some secret mission.  He is waiting to find out what she can discover.  So he thinks the PwiP has some connection to the Targ/Dorne bloodline.  Something that Rhaegar seems to share since he marries Elia and names Aegon the PwiP.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But it aint a water supply, its primarily a Stairway to Hell and the Black Gate

I'm thinking the original wall was built using salt water; or water drawn up from the seas at east and west.  Salt water seems to be a barrier also and I'm always curious that the drop of water Bran tastes is salty.  How does that happen if the Wall is built with freshwater?

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The Romans managed perfectly well with a 10 foot high wall. This one wasn't built against people and that, as Mormont ruefully admitted, was the problem because the Watch had forgotten that their job wasn't to keep the Wildlings penned up, but something quite different

 

The fact of the matter is that there are people beyond the Wall...a single group collectively called wildlings, or Free Folk as they like to style themselves. They themselves say they are there, because they refused to kneel to a king they didn't select, but one that was forced upon them.

 

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But it aint a water supply, its primarily a Stairway to Hell and the Black Gate

This is just a theory as well (no pun intended) and I am challenging it. It could have become the Black Gate because of the Nights King. It may have been an ordinary well up until the Nights King was overthrown. I theorize that the Nights King was forced down the well and imprisoned there, and the ice magic was sealed and warded there as well. (pun still unintended) The sapling that Bran and company saw growing up through the Nightfort is evidence that this ice magic is returning. The Ironborn lore of the Grey King descending to be with the Drowned God is the story of the Nights King. He descended down the well, and the ice magic - aka Elenei, "daughter" of the marriage between the goddess of the wind/Storm god with the sea god/Drowned God - was sealed with him.

Edited to add: the Other that the Nights King saw beyond the Wall was Elenei - the pale maiden called ice magic.

 

[Black Crow]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If Bran is the PwiP; then the meaning of the woods witch prophecy is rather strange since Bran doesn't come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

We don't know how reliable the woods witch is - after all she comes a long time after the prophecy and was talking to people who wanted to believe.

Either way, whether Bran is the Prince or not, I still maintain that those skewered dreamers who couldn't pass the test, means that Bran was been awaited long before Bloodraven became the dead man in the tree

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

This is just a theory as well (no pun intended) and I am challenging it. It could have become the Black Gate because of the Nights King. It may have been an ordinary well up until the Nights King was overthrown.

 

Nah, the gate is as old as the Wall and water supplies don't need a spiral staircase, just a rope and a bucket

[SirArthur]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The Romans managed perfectly well with a 10 foot high wall. This one wasn't built against people and that, as Mormont ruefully admitted, was the problem because the Watch had forgotten that their job wasn't to keep the Wildlings penned up, but something quite different

Looking at the map right now, I am fairly certain the romans would have build the wall at other locations. Along the Gorge north-east and then gapping the rivers between Craster's Keep and the Antler.

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking the original wall was built using salt water; or water drawn up from the seas at east and west.  Salt water seems to be a barrier also and I'm always curious that the drop of water Bran tastes is salty.  How does that happen if the Wall is built with freshwater?

I thought that it was a salt tear from from the face rather than from the roof - it was warm after all.