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Heresy 206: of Starks and Walls


Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why have an eight hundred foot wall for any purpose?

Is a wall of that height needed for White Walkers?  They appear to be the size of a man.  If they can turn into air I would expect that they could still travel either over or around the physical barrier the Wall creates.  Woukdn’t a magically warded wall be just as effective against the White Walkers if it was much shorter?

As to my own thoughts, No, its not so high as it is to interpose a physical barrier to armies. The Romans managed perfectly well with 10 foot of stone. Overkill doesn't even begin to describe it, No matter how high you build it some fool will always climb it. A 10 foot wall might obviously be easier to climb but its still good enough to hinder armies and force them to go around or to open it while the defenders quite lierally call for the cavalry. Taking it higher than the Roman wall might or might not increase its effectiveness but the law of diminishing returns will soon set in where the cost in men and resources far outweighs the benefits.

No, I've thought for some time and increasing think that the Wall is nothing to do with Bob the Builder or with the Watch but is not only magic but is much much older than we think. As I suggested before it may turn out that it is indeed 8,000 years old, or even older, but predates the First Men let alone the Watch.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I can recall a theory aired by someone on heresy a very time ago, suggesting that it was really a magical barrier to Winter or rather the magic of Ice and that the physical Wall which we see was in effect a glacier piled up against that invisible wall of magic

While I find myself skeptical of the idea, it has a certain appeal in relation to Melisandre characterizing the Wall (or its location) as a "hinge;" what manner of door or gate does Melisandre imagine the 'hinge' is opening and closing? 

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Let's talk about the Stark direwolves. How did the mother penetrate the Wall ? Did she go down through the Gorge ? Did she already live in the North ? Did she find a part of the Wall melted away ? Was she left there by someone else ? And how did that someone penetrate the Wall ? Climbing the Wall with a pregnant direwolf on the back ? I doubt it.

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36 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

 

Responding to both of these, because they both touch upon ideas I consider related to the Wall as well; if one looks at the terrain in Pact terms, the Wall might also be read as an abrupt dividing line between the Haunted Forest (CotF land) and the realms of men.

The humanity that is to be found north of the Wall, particularly those living within the Haunted Forest, appears to be a scattered series of small villages, such as Whitetree--whose massive heart tree might be benevolently read as "old and well-tended," or ominously read as "well fed in sacrifice," depending on one's point of view.

In any case, it may be that for the kingdoms of the First Men, the Wall served as a visual warning: "Your civilization is not welcome here, and if you cross this line, there will be no wards to protect you." 

For the poor saps that were unfortunate enough to find themselves penned in on the wrong side of the Wall, they may have been faced with the choice of either "getting right with the gods" or clearing out of the Haunted Forest to take up residence in places like the Thenns, the Frozen Shore, the Ice Rivers, etc. 

It's funny how the same information can convey two totally different theories. You see a Wall to keep the southron folks out, and I see a Wall to keep northern wildlings in! 

The only way to make sense of the Pact and whether or not the First Men held to it - and keeping in mind that the north was said to prevent every Andal army from crossing the Trident - is to presume the wildlings were still living in the Riverlands and Neck up until Harren the Black chopped all the weirwood forests down. That was only 300 years ago while the Wall was already there and presumably the wildlings were already north of the Wall too.

29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As to my own thoughts, No, its not so high as it is to interpose a physical barrier to armies. The Romans managed perfectly well with 10 foot of stone. Overkill doesn't even begin to describe it, No matter how high you build it some fool will always climb it. A 10 foot wall might obviously be easier to climb but its still good enough to hinder armies and force them to go around or to open it while the defenders quite lierally call for the cavalry. Taking it higher than the Roman wall might or might not increase its effectiveness but the law of diminishing returns will soon set in where the cost in men and resources far outweighs the benefits.

No, I've thought for some time and increasing think that the Wall is nothing to do with Bob the Builder or with the Watch but is not only magic but is much much older than we think. As I suggested before it may turn out that it is indeed 8,000 years old, or even older, but predates the First Men let alone the Watch.

There are glaring facts that the Wall cannot be magically made:

1) It doesn't repair itself. How could it have grown to the height and breadth that it is and not be able to repair melted areas or re-fill in tunnels and passageways?

2) If it's magical it doesn't even need to exist in physical form.

3) Foundation blocks are plainly seen.

 

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

While I find myself skeptical of the idea, it has a certain appeal in relation to Melisandre characterizing the Wall (or its location) as a "hinge;" what manner of door or gate does Melisandre imagine the 'hinge' is opening and closing? 

It's a hinge because it holds a door that once was shut. It's an invisible door of woven spells.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

1) It doesn't repair itself. How could it have grown to the height and breadth that it is and not be able to repair melted areas or re-fill in tunnels and passageways?

That's actual my theory on the Wall for quite some time. The Wall is the attempt to repair a broken magic barrier. And now the Wall needs repair. 

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34 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

That's actual my theory on the Wall for quite some time. The Wall is the attempt to repair a broken magic barrier. And now the Wall needs repair. 

Do you believe the Wall was built by magic? If so, how do you explain that the Watch has passageways and tunnels dug through it? If magic is responsible for growing the Wall, then it should be impossible to keep any tunnels open.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Let's talk about the Stark direwolves. How did the mother penetrate the Wall ? Did she go down through the Gorge ? Did she already live in the North ? Did she find a part of the Wall melted away ? Was she left there by someone else ? And how did that someone penetrate the Wall ? Climbing the Wall with a pregnant direwolf on the back ? I doubt it.

It has been suggested that Gared brought the direwolf through the Black Gate.  That requires a guide and we can ask how it is that he escaped the WW to start with.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Let's talk about the Stark direwolves. How did the mother penetrate the Wall ? Did she go down through the Gorge ? Did she already live in the North ? Did she find a part of the Wall melted away ? Was she left there by someone else ? And how did that someone penetrate the Wall ? Climbing the Wall with a pregnant direwolf on the back ? I doubt it.

Ah well, this is one of the heresies. There are too many coincidences in the opening chapters, which have led to the suspicion that Gared didn't simply escape from the White Walkers but had his life spared in return for convoying the she-wolf through the black gate and then sacrificing her with an antler bone dagger close to Winterfell, thus delivering the package to its intended destination.

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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

While I find myself skeptical of the idea, it has a certain appeal in relation to Melisandre characterizing the Wall (or its location) as a "hinge;" what manner of door or gate does Melisandre imagine the 'hinge' is opening and closing? 

That would be the Black Gate which I believe is not only a physical opening through the ice but a metaphysical gateway that Tree-Bran uses when he contacts Ghost-Jon.  The middle head of Trios, the one that nobody can explain what it does.  This is a demonstration of the function of the gate and perhaps Bran is also tapping into the power of the Wall itself when he uses the gate.  It may also be that the Undying have the ability to use the gate from the HoU and tap the power of the Wall as well.  At least until  Dany burns the place down.

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

There are glaring facts that the Wall cannot be magically made:

1) It doesn't repair itself. How could it have grown to the height and breadth that it is and not be able to repair melted areas or re-fill in tunnels and passageways?

2) If it's magical it doesn't even need to exist in physical form.

3) Foundation blocks are plainly seen.

 

As GRRM has said before, his magic has no rules because it wouldn't be magic 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to my own thoughts, No, its not so high as it is to interpose a physical barrier to armies. The Romans managed perfectly well with 10 foot of stone. Overkill doesn't even begin to describe it, No matter how high you build it some fool will always climb it. A 10 foot wall might obviously be easier to climb but its still good enough to hinder armies and force them to go around or to open it while the defenders quite lierally call for the cavalry. Taking it higher than the Roman wall might or might not increase its effectiveness but the law of diminishing returns will soon set in where the cost in men and resources far outweighs the benefits.

No, I've thought for some time and increasing think that the Wall is nothing to do with Bob the Builder or with the Watch but is not only magic but is much much older than we think. As I suggested before it may turn out that it is indeed 8,000 years old, or even older, but predates the First Men let alone the Watch.

But this supports what I suggested.  The Wall took hundreds of years to build and thousands to reach its current height.  This would not happen if it wasn't useful when it was much shorter. 

Suppose someone like the Romans built a 10 foot tall and made do with that.  It was useful, but frequently breached, so they raised it higher and the process continues.

I am not sure about diminishing returns, as scaling a 20 foot Wall is more than twice as difficult as scaling a 10 foot Wall,  but agree this probably would not give an 800 foot wall.  However GRRM did say he made the Wall too tall.

Suppose we had a 20 foot wall between men and the Children before The Long Night.  The Others held at the Wall a while, defeat man and cross it, are defeated South of The Wall in the battle for the dawn and held at The Wall again without ever crossing again.  Men raise the Wall to help the fight, and after the Others are gone, raise it in case they come back.   Thousands of years later, Lord Commanders are still raising it, trying to outdo their predecessors.

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7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you believe the Wall was built by magic? If so, how do you explain that the Watch has passageways and tunnels dug through it? If magic is responsible for growing the Wall, then it should be impossible to keep any tunnels open.

Why?

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The mother direwolf scene is a symbolic message, and the only ones that appeared to understand the symbolism was Ned, Jory, and Hullen. Jory said, "it is a sign." Ned frowned and seemed troubled, Hullen didn't like that direwolves were loose in the realm again, and the three men looked at the antler uneasily. Jon, Theon, Robb, and Bran watched and listened, but their comments didn't indicate concern - they were mainly excited to see a direwolf and to keep the pups. Considering all the reactions of everyone in the group I would say the scene was staged as a warning to Ned since he's the Lord of Winterfell. Such knowledge of the future would most likely be coming from Bloodraven. As greenseer he would be practiced at seeing the future through the trees, and maybe he hoped he could affect Ned's behavior? Because I think he's been trying to manipulate Ned for many years with that "old dream" of three Kingsguard and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

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16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

  Thousands of years later, Lord Commanders are still raising it, trying to outdo their predecessors.

That is the part I do not understand. Why not increasing the Wall in area ? Build a prewall. Dig out a moat. Build towers to attack people climbing the Wall. Basic defence stuff. There are some real famous antique Walls like the Long Walls of Athens or my favourite, the Theodosian Wall. 

 

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you believe the Wall was built by magic? If so, how do you explain that the Watch has passageways and tunnels dug through it? If magic is responsible for growing the Wall, then it should be impossible to keep any tunnels open.

Yes, it was build with the help of magic creatures. And it is a swiss cheese, because the magic barrier before the Wall failed in the area of the Wall. not in the west where the Gorge is and not in the east beyond Eastwatch. 

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14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

 

I am not sure about diminishing returns, as scaling a 20 foot Wall is more than twice as difficult as scaling a 10 foot Wall,  but agree this probably would not give an 800 foot wall.  However GRRM did say he made the Wall too tall.

 

The diminishing returns come in through the cost in resources need to raise the height of the Wall versus the questionable benefits gained as opposed to the far greater benefits obtained from spending those resources on things like bigger armies and extra cavalry.

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24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Wall was built by magic and it magically grew, then tunnels and passageways should grow shut.

I think they do and the builders have to maintain the tunnels and openings through the ice. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Tell me, Jon noted, not tell us, though Jarl stood right beside him. He would have liked nothing better than to refuse the brusque demand, but he knew Styr would put him to death at the slightest disloyalty, and Ygritte as well, for the crime of being his. "There are four men in each patrol, two rangers and two builders," he said. "The builders are supposed to make note of cracks, melting, and other structural problems, while the rangers look for signs of foes. They ride mules."

It may be that Jon perceives the light coming through the ice as a structural problem:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

Jon nodded weakly. The door swung open. Pyp led them in, followed by Clydas and the lantern. It was all Jon could do to keep up with Maester Aemon. The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That's bad, Jon knew at once. That's very bad.

This occurs beneath the Wall in it's foundation.  I wonder if this has something to do with the magic of the Wall weakening over time and if blood sacrifice keeps the magic strong.

I have thought that the HoU is a gateway to the Wall and the faded carpet represents the magic woven between rock and ice:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

The mold-eaten carpet under her feet had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green. What remained served to muffle her footfalls, but that was not all to the good.

The rotted corrupted heart at the center seems analogous to the rotting ice calving off the Wall.

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